IS WAR as hard as it seems?

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Imo PLD is the harder of the two since flash is your only enmity generator outside of CoS which is on a 30 sed cd. You also don't get access to Shield Oath, which is your tanking stance till 40 so you are learning to tank in your dps stance for a whole 10 levels, assuming you actually do dungeons and don't fate grind to 40.

For anyone who asks me advice on which tank to level and are serious about tanking, I almost always say PLD since they will be learning the foundations of great tanking and to not rely on spamming their aoes.

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I can agree with this...

If we're talking about Mob Tanking in dungeons, than Pld is quite possibly the hardest of the 3 tanks from a sheer enmity standpoint. More than any other tank, Pld's have to pay very close attention to which enemies have how much threat, which Dps is attacking which target, and which enemy requires the next enmity gen move. How often they have to use Flash between CoS's... etc. They have to cycle targets, and that's far more attention demanding than simple AoE bursts. Not to mention that maximizing their Dps potential is extremely difficult compared to Drks and War's, because they don't have the option of freely switching to Dps combos (or stances) without risking losing hate ... Though, this dedicated attention is more of a built in flaw that SE refuses to address, which kind of sucks.

Personally, I think that they are afraid that if they "fix" Pld enmity they'll make the job too easy, because Pld's defensive CD's are one and done buttons. Generally, that makes them easier to implement than War's or Drks... though technically, I guess they can be a lot less forgiving if you use the wrong one at the wrong time...

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I'm not sure how it is since Heavensward. Back when I leveled WAR to Lv50, I had fun with it until I tried endgame content. Found out I had a higher survival rate as PLD instead. I have no intentions to take WAR past Lv51 lol...

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Things changed a lot in HW for warrior. The survival rate is not quite that of a paladin, but pretty darn close. Warrior makes up for the lack of mitigation with the insane amount of self healing it provides with bloodbath, inner beast, storm's path, and equilibrium. Not to mention you now get raw intuition as yet another defensive cd. Pair this with the existing cd's such as vengeance, foresight, and the cross class abilities from paladin that you can use and you can see how warrior is extremely powerful.

On top of all this, warrior does the most damage out of any tank and is arguably the most fun. There is also the amazing dps stance that they gave is called deliverance that allows you to do an extremely powerful AOE and single target attack. And since you can switch in and out of deliverance/defiance off the global cd and the stacks of wrath/abandon are converted when you change stances, you can pull off some insane burst damage. Starting a pull and building your first few wrath stacks, use berserk, internal release, blood bath/vengeance (to keep you up and for extra stacks), pop deliverance at 5 stacks and do double decimate using infuriate followed by overpower spam until berserk is over. I usually switch back to defiance after that since you get 5 seconds of downtime unless you have a competent healer that can keep you up and dispel the debuff. I can't tell you how satisfying that is to do in expert roulette or any big trash pull. You can also do the same thing on a boss fight using the single target attack fel cleave for some MASSIVE damage, especially if you critical strike. Sure makes dungeons go a lot faster!

Warriors are the easiest tanks to play and the easiest tanks to maximize the potential of. It sounds like there's a lot to pay attention to, but there really isn't. It's just people over complicating the job to make it seem harder than it is.

The TC has already said that they're not thinking about Savage right now but I still have to reiterate what I said earlier.

When you are setting the bar so low, the difference in difficulty is negligible because they're all incredibly easy to play.

But, I just have to say that for anyone that actually is wondering about how the tanks play at a high level, this topic is loaded with complete garbage from posters who have no business talking about a job's performance in the hardest and most demanding content.

Seriously? PLD harder to play than WAR? What is even going on here? If you have issues with holding aggro in a dungeon run (or even in a raid) on any tank, you are no where near the level where you should be discussing the skill cap of a class. Aggro is a non-issue for all the tanks unless you are severely under-geared. DRK? Having more buttons to mindlessly spam off-CD doesn't make you harder to play.

For one, WAR is the only tank where you actually need to think when gearing. PLD? ACC cap --> Crit --> Det. DRK? ACC cap --> Crit --> Det. For WARs, you actually need a varying amount of SkS depending on your latency and comfort level. Too much SkS and you waste stat budgeting that could've gone to crit. Too little and you lose a 2 GCDs. Properly executing a triple FC 9 GCD Berserk window while potting and dealing with mechanics is harder than anything PLD or DRK have to do.

DRKs and PLDs only have 2 openers. They have an MT opening for aggro and a OT opening for DPS. WARs have an MT opening for aggro and multiple OT openings for different fights. On Thordan EX, it makes more sense to use a manual stack-building opener -- the Berserk pacification window lines up perfectly with Dragon's Gaze, having Vengeance / Raw Intuition on CD earlier doesn't really matter, and your general stack usage is really efficient. On A3S, it makes more sense to use a pre-infuriate opener -- you can squeeze in an additional Vengeance usage before add-phase tethers. These are the things you think about on WAR that you don't have to deal with on PLD or DRK. Just because you might not play at the level doesn't mean that what I'm saying is some fantasy.

Another way that there is a subtle difference in skill requirement is their DoT upkeep. With PLDs, it's pretty mindless because your DoT upkeep is a natural part of your rotation. DRKs are similar to WARs except DRKs don't actually need to worry about trying to line up their DoT application with Deliverance stacks and your Berserk / IR windows.

Just because WAR is really strong right now in terms of balance doesn't mean every single butt-hurt tank can make ridiculous, wrong, and misleading claims about it.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

DRK? Having more buttons to mindlessly spam off-CD doesn't make you harder to play.

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Except if you're mindlessly spamming them you aren't playing the job right. Due to MP-to-DPS cost efficiency there is actually a priority system in place on what to use, and in what order. And because they all have such short recasts you have to constantly worry about it. Oh, and then there's procs, which can change the flow of things entirely. I'm sorry but this is a fucking video game, if the difficulty isn't in pushing buttons then where is it? Having to think critically about stats and boss fights? Oh bother, how do us dumb non-WAR tanks do that again?

Lining up cooldowns and pushing secondary stats is not unique to WAR. If you think triple Cleaving while dealing with mechanics is hard I question whether you've had experience playing an actual DPS job. Its really simple: "Am I going to have 20s of uptime to do my x3 cleave? If not, are the mechanics such that I won't be able to make it back within melee range in the scope of my GCD?". As for DRK, try maximizing DoT/debuff uptime with your attack speed jumping up and down. Try having to manage a resource that isn't cut neatly into 5 user friendly stacks. Try double-weaving constantly while actively tanking without screwing up and delaying your GCD, or working in that proc that'll be gone in seconds (oh wait you can't because you have a whopping 1 oGCD). Your post just proves you have pushed WAR to the limit but haven't bothered to do the same with the other tanks, and anyone with ears knows how to push WAR to the limit by now because the lot of you won't shut up about it. Its extremely well documented and publicized information, how to push WAR to its limit and play it optimally. What isn't as well known is how to play the other tanks on the same level, particularly DRK, and any attempts to put this information in the spotlight or suggest a situational advantage another tank may have result in every WAR main descending like hellfire onto the thread to defend their place as da bestest tank evar. To say nothing of newer players that hear almost nothing but a constant "Just go WAR".

What you're trying to say is that WAR forces you to not only tank but also worry about offensive cooldown rotations/durations/recasts and lining those up with certain abilities which is something every DPS in the game has been doing forever. DRK has something entirely different that every DPS also has to deal with and that's maximizing DPS/mechanic execution while having a never-ending stream of buttons to push in between your GCD, and pushing those buttons in an effective priority while managing a resource. Both tanks have an increased DPS burden/learning curve just in different areas. For the best tank in the game, WARs sure are defensive about their seemingly impregnable throne, and above all, they can't seem to defend it without woefully underselling the other two tanks.

Except I am not a WAR main. I am a PLD main and have been one since 2.X. I only picked WAR up because my static needed one since our DRK only plays DRK. If my co-tank only played WAR, then I would just as readily switch to DRK. I have no dog in this fight since I am a tank player and don't care for any side. But, biased, incorrect, and ludicrous statements have no place in any discussion.

And, how have WARs descended upon this thread like wildfire? Or countless other threads here as of late? I'm one of only a few posts in this thread that actually makes the case for WARs being harder to play. It's hilarious. I used to argue for pages and pages against WAR mains that said PLDs were fine in early HW up until the release of Savage (at which point they had no legs to stand on anymore). Who would've thought I would be defending WARs only a few months later? And, how does me spreading the truth that WAR is hard to play incentive for new players to play WAR? How is being harder to play positive or encouraging to a new player? Shouldn't you want more new players to play DRK and PLD? But, I guess I shouldn't expect much from the creator of a thread called "Lets nerf WAR : D"

And, so what if DRK has to manage their DoT and debuffs with their attack speed jumping up and down? WAR has to deal with the same snap shotting with their crit jumping up and down and their Berserk / IR windows. DRK MP management is not hard when you can tank Gritless and get the returns of both Blood Price and Blood Weapon. And, like I said in my first post, DRK resource management is much more in the moment. You know your priorities with MP expenditure and the times when you need to have enough MP to DA Dark Mind on top of your standard Soul Eater / Carve and Spit usage (though this is made easier by the reality that you're applying Delirium ahead of many situations where you would use DA Dark Mind and won't be spending a DA on your combo). It's not like WAR where if you run into a situation where you are at 4 stacks and 2 GCDs away from being able to IB with no way to push a stack, you have to go back and redo your rotation so that you can have IB ready without sitting on too many wasted stacks. Ask a lot of WARs who clear A3S and they will be able to tell you every single GCD they use from start to finish (excluding some variance with the add phase through first cascade transition) because that's the type of precision you need. As for oGCDs, it's pretty straight forward which oGCDs have a longer animation lock and stop you from double weaving. And, the abundance of oGCD usage is not unique to DRK. Just look at DRG and the massive amount of double weaving they have to do. Even WAR still has to double weave IR into Berserk to maximize their DPS.

And really, you're constantly just proving my point. DPS classes are harder to play than tanks when you look exclusively at mechanical demand. Just look at a DPS opener and compare it to what the tanks have to deal with. Yea, when you compare the triple FC rotation to a DPS, it's not particularly special. But, the other tanks don't have anything to compare at all. So, when you repeatedly say that a WAR is just doing everything a DPS class has to do while tanking, you are not making the case that they are easier to play.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

But, I guess I shouldn't expect much from the creator of a thread called "Lets nerf WAR : D"

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You sound like a butthurt ex-girlfriend.

Anyway, I never made the case that they were harder than DPS, just that they were easier than DRK. I never made the argument that DRK was harder than DPS either. I also never said they have to do everything a DPS does, they have a single mechanic, their burst (triple cleave+fracture), that behaves like a DPS does, and its incredibly simple. In between triple cleaves your rotation/ability usage is barely more complex than PLD and is ho-hum as hell. People will tell you that DRK is harder because that aspect of their playstyle that is DPS-like never stops, and isn't limited to just their burst period.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Seriously? PLD harder to play than WAR? What is even going on here? If you have issues with holding aggro in a dungeon run (or even in a raid) on any tank, you are no where near the level where you should be discussing the skill cap of a class.

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Looking back, I'm pretty sure that the exact wording was that Pld is the hardest tank for maintaining threat, specifically, due to the fact that they have the lowest enmity multiplier of all three tanks. I'm not sure why you would even contest this, considering it is a well documented fact. The numbers have been outed a long time ago. Throw a stone into the Tank forums and you'll find them somewhere, because it's been discussed a dozen times over. If you have ever read anything about Pld's or used them at all in the past then this is something that you should know very well. Further, if you main-ed Pld in the past, then you should also know that Pld's optimize their Dps when rotating RoH across several targets to keep hate, instead of using Flash which deals 0 Dmg. This is Pld Mob tanking 101, typically something Pld's learn before they get Shield Oath.

After HW, Pld's got 2 new combos that are by far harder to work into their rotation when MOB tanking, specifically, without losing enmity. The new Pld optimization for mob tanking would see the Pld rotating RoH to maintain threat across as many targets as possible before switching to GB or RA to maximize their Dps. Ideally, to maintain maximum Dps, the Pld should be avoiding additional uses of Flash as much as possible since Flash deals 0 dps. Again, this is due to the fact that they have a well documented and substantially lower enmity multiplier than War's and Drk's. That's not a big secret here.

Now, does that mean that it is overly "hard?" No. You're right to say that any Pld tanking at end-game content should be able to hold enmity no problem. However, do Pld's have a harder time maintaining threat on multiple targets while optimizing their Dps using GB and RA and without resorting to additional Flash spams (which are not optimal due to the fact that Flash does 0 dps)? Most certainly. This is not even a question, and I don't know why anyone would ever say otherwise, given that the numbers have been worked out so often it's sickening that SE hasn't said anything about it. By comparison, War's and Drk's have far more freedom to do practically whatever they want during a mob pull and still hold enmity with the minimum effort.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

And, the abundance of oGCD usage is not unique to DRK. Just look at DRG and the massive amount of double weaving they have to do. Even WAR still has to double weave IR into Berserk to maximize their DPS.

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Sorry to tell you this, but this is also not accurate.

It's true that they have a lot of oGCD's. They have 12 offensive oGCD's in total (14 if you count Mercy Stroke and Blood of the Dragon), that are actively worked into their rotation. That's a lot... only each and every single one of those oGCD's (besides Mercy Stroke and Blood of the Dragon) is worked into their combo in a very precise way that has been micro managed down to the second (including which buffs should be used when). You can go onto the Dps forums and find several wonderful guides that explain exactly how to do it and when each and every move is utilized, including charts and mathematical values explaining potency and timing. it's glorious.

The point of all that leg work that other people did is that Drg's do not "work around" their oGCD's in their rotation so much as their oGCD's are actually a fundamental part of those combos. There's absolutely nothing difficult about when and where to use them, because they are all used at very specific times (assuming you don't screw up). The hardest part about actually implementing them is putting them all onto your hotbar in such a way that they all flow together in an easy to follow format. Once you've done that, it's easy. Further, if you miss an oGCD on Drg it's not a big deal. You just delay the implementation of it by one turn of your GCD and you're back into the swing of things with minimal ill effect. It's actually pretty forgiving.

The "difficult" part of the Drg rotation right now is actually managing BoTD alongside Heavy lance and Phlebotomize, because missing the timing on either of those moves is absolutely not forgiving. If you miss the timing, you have to wait a full rotation before you get to correct the mistake and it's a massive loss of Dps. If you try to correct it mid rotation (thereby canceling your combo multiplier and killing your BoTD) it's still a massive loss of Dps.

By comparison, Drk's oGCD's are, in fact, much more difficult to implement, because unlike Drg's, Drk's do actually have to "work around" their oGCD's. Drk oGCD's are not used in specific places of the Drk rotation. They are, mostly, used on CD (except when they're not) and are extremely dependent on the Drk's current Mp pool which is a shared expenditure with several of their buffs. Further, several of them have alternate or boosted effects that can change their utility and expenditure. Between working those oGCD's in, managing the Mp it takes to use them or buff them (in appropriate situations), on top of holding enmity and using Defensive CD's appropriately (which a Drg can completely ignore so long as they are not taking dmg... which is most of the time), Drk oGCD's don't compare to Drg oGCD's. They are vastly different and much less black and white in terms of when and how they should be implemented.

The only reason people think that WAR is so easy and so brainless is because it's been pigeonholed into the OT slot on top of everything in HW being brainless to tank (so much so that even if WAR was tanking, it'd be in DPS stance). If we're purely talking about difficulty now relative to the content, then all 3 tanks are easy as hell. If you think that DRK has MP management you're bananas, it has a priority system and that's it. Blood Price and Blood Weapon never let you run out of MP and very rarely will you have to make a decision on what you should use over what. Most of DRK's oGCDs are just kept on CD as they have no mana cost. The CD rotation is as cut and dry as PLD's outside of using Dark Dance before a tank buster which adds no complexity as you need to know when the tank busters come regardless of what tank you play. The rotation is jokes, you rotate DA Soul Eater and Delirium depending on MP and what's coming off cooldown.

I just can not figure out what people are finding difficult about DRK. Is it because you have more buttons to press? Is pressing buttons difficult for some people?

e: Also, even if you needed to pick and choose what to press when, it comes down to simply looking at the number under the bar that's blue. That's not hard. That's not some sort of mental gymnastics. I know everyone wants to think their job is the hardest because they work so hard and put out DEM MAX DEEPZ BOISSSSS but jeeeesus.

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As for DRK, try maximizing DoT/debuff uptime with your attack speed jumping up and down

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??????????????????? Delirium being reset early literally affects nothing. You apply the DoT when it falls off, you have 1 DoT. What. What?? WHAT?? Honestly. Honestly. Come on.