Summoners Overpowered in PvP

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

You can Purify the DoT's. (If you Purify fast enough Fester will do 0 damage, and not give a stack of Aethertrail...meaning no Dreadwyrm anyway.)
You can remove Aetherflow if you are a Monk/Paladin/Astrologian

If Tri-Disaster is on cooldown already, you can interrupt all cast times with simple auto attacks

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The same can be said for MCH's BtE and warrior's holmgang. The counter-play is not exclusive against summoner's burst or strong points.

And honestly, you'd be a damned fool if you're trying to hardcast something out in the open like that, and typically BLMs are higher on the interrupt list anyway because their stationary dps when given the chance is pretty absurd compared to a SMN's.

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

and it really isnt hard to stay within the outer sweet spot to keep most of that damage

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Speaking from a perspective of a MCH, this is not always the case or that straight forward. It's still a damage penalty if we're attacking from further than the sweetspot range even with GB, and its a signifcant loss in damage if it's closer than sweetspot. The other half of the damage is hitting with BtE, which can be finkity a times because your only reliable setup is bind, which lately has given me less-than-ideal potency boosts in my roulette.

Compared to a SMN's burst, it's not as potent, the effective cooldown is longer, effective range is lower and it's a bit more situational (especially with ricochet getting full potency), but it's faster.

The frantic and faster-pacing in seal rock naturally allows for the classes who are more motile and can still safely deal damage in large crowds to shine, and some are better than others in this regard. It might not be the case in wolf's den, but honestly wolves' den is a long ways away (3.2 last I remembered) and it's the only content that's still active for ranking up.

Hi, Black mage here just to say hello, the turrets can kill too!...


I think that SMN is now the new 'trending', the fashion, all the opposite that in 50 modes where using SMN really required skill, it doesn't require it that much anymore, most of SMN just wait for the minute burst and go, meanwhile they are useless...

Not considering them OP though, even if at the start of seal rock I thought it.

Aetherflow and CDs are just a poor excuse to defend the job. Other jobs have CD too.

and SMN CDs are ridiculously short.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Aetherflow and CDs are just a poor excuse to defend the job. Other jobs have CD too.

and SMN CDs are ridiculously short.

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But you can not dispell other job "cds" like aetherflow. Anyway, smn do not really not have that much control, cc and interrupts like other jobs.

This is example how much cc can help killing your opponent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbyf5KiRHVY

They have really nothing that will help them escape from pursuers. BLM has two Sleeps, Lethargy (Heavy/Slow), two shields (Manawall, Manaward), two binds (Freeze and Blizz II) and a teleportation move (though useless if there are no party members near) - SMNs have none of this, other than Tri-bind which has a cast time. That is a pretty major weakness, and weakness enough to consider them pretty well balanced.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

They have really nothing that will help them escape from pursuers. BLM has two Sleeps, Lethargy (Heavy/Slow), two shields (Manawall, Manaward), two binds (Freeze and Blizz II) and a teleportation move (though useless if there are no party members near) - SMNs have none of this, other than Tri-bind which has a cast time. That is a pretty major weakness, and weakness enough to consider them pretty well balanced.

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Swiftcast tri-bind. And even then, a lot of the examples you listed for BLM also has cast times so I don't think you can really apply the cast-time part exclusively to SMN.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

But you can not dispell other job "cds" like aetherflow. Anyway, smn do not really not have that much control, cc and interrupts like other jobs.

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In practice this hardly ever happens because PLD's effet is tied to a knockback (which is better saved for...knocking people off), MNK is limited to a stance, and AST is on long cooldown. And even then, this isn't exclusive to SMN since MCH ammo and enochian can be removed in the same manner (which again, doesn't occur very frequently to actually mean much due to the circumstances tied to it)

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Originally Posted by Sunako

This is example how much cc can help killing your opponent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbyf5KiRHVY

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It's also an example of a healer begging to be killed because they're literally by themselves against two other dps, not to mention he stopped lustrating himself after the first one.

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Originally Posted by Elim

tl;dr
SMNs have strengths and weaknesses. They've also been nerfed many times. Their beastly burst and mobility is what makes them unique. Without either they wouldn't be competitive in PvP.

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Their weaknesses are also ones that are not exclusive to themselves, but applicable to ranged dps as a whole. BLM's CC are also tied to cast times and gets interrupted without some buffer skill (be it surecast, swiftcast or Equanimity), the only ranged job that has a stun is MCH (unless you count the egis), BRD and MCH have cooldowns on their bind which can be ruined by fetter ward or counter-binded if they were escaping another caster.

The matter of fact is, the burst and mobility is a shared trait between the ranged classes (excluding BLM since they're contingent on procs and can be unreliable/unsteady at times). SMN just happens to be the best at it. Outside of burst, BRD and MCH's sustained dps becomes inconsistent at best due to ranged penalty and if high ground is applicable, the best they're good for is being an interrupt bot on the enemy's BLM. SMN's dps, albeit low, is consistent, sustained through DoTs, and they can be supplemented with tri-bind caster LB combo, especially if they're fighting on a strategic point.

And it also has part to do with the environment they're in as I mentioned before. Whether or not everything should be balanced between frontlines or WD is another thing, but we're not getting a WD update until 3.2.

Okay. Lets pretend they take away SMNs mobility and burst DPS. They just do turreted/sustained DPS(and maybe a minor bit of burst) now. They can still get kills, but what will make them unique/competitive? Why choose them over other DPS?

Their only means of getting away from an attacker is a casted bind that can be interrupted by an auto attack unless you waste an extra cooldown on it. They have no stuns. They have no heavy. They have no gap closer like melee do. They have no defensive cooldowns. They cannot res in PvP and haven't been able to for awhile. Their healing debuff was nerfed awhile back and is pretty much nothing but a minor inconvenience most healers wont even notice. They're ranged, but so are BLMs, BRDs and MCH. They have a large AOE LB that, if coordinated, can destroy a team, but so do BLMs.

tl;dr
SMNs have strengths and weaknesses. They've also been nerfed many times. Their beastly burst and mobility is what makes them unique. Without either they wouldn't be competitive in PvP.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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SMN DPS really isn't sustained in PvP...dots get cleansed pretty quickly. Their dots between burst probably wont kill anyone, but they're great for fluffing numbers. BLMs have the same supplement for their DPS. Also BLMs heavy/sleep/bind can be used for many other strategic reasons. They're more useful than tri-bind because they apply to multiple targets. Another reason to use BLMs over SMNs, if SMN is nerfed in the way I posted. I could address more points, but whether I agree with your points or not, you basically want SMNs nerfed because you think their burst is the best out of the ranged? Am I understanding this correctly?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Swiftcast tri-bind. And even then, a lot of the examples you listed for BLM also has cast times so I don't think you can really apply the cast-time part exclusively to SMN.

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And once the enemy Purifies your Tri-bind, you have nothing left as a SMN. BLM also has their shields, their Lethargy, their teleport and their Nightwing (sleep), all of which are instant. I am not saying BLM doesn't have cast times. My point was illustrating that SMN has one trick up their sleeve to escape from an enemy(s), while BLM has many. All of this was to show why I do not think a SMN is OP - because they do have noticeable weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

And once the enemy Purifies your Tri-bind, you have nothing left as a SMN. BLM also has their shields, their Lethargy, their teleport and their Nightwing (sleep), all of which are instant. I am not saying BLM doesn't have cast times. My point was illustrating that SMN has one trick up their sleeve to escape from an enemy(s), while BLM has many. All of this was to show why I do not think a SMN is OP - because they do have noticeable weaknesses.

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Are they purifying your tri-bind or your tri-disaster though (if we're speaking strictly on escapes, then this is an isolated scenario in PvP and while I'll conceded that BLM has a bit more options in that regard, its hardly ever applicible, especially when I'm on the end that any dps that gets caught with their pants down would be a dead man)? Is not the same once nightwing (which has a fairly long cooldown no less). Even with noticeable weaknesses as you put it, it's not all applicable, or at least glaring to the fact its incredibly detrimental to the SMN when it's in practice. The shields at best would delay your death unless there's a healer nearby (which would then be very circumstantial, and isn't too frequent.)

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SMN DPS really isn't sustained in PvP...dots get cleansed pretty quickly. Their dots between burst probably wont kill anyone, but they're great for fluffing numbers. BLMs have the same supplement for their DPS. Also BLMs heavy/sleep/bind can be used for many other strategic reasons. They're more useful than tri-bind because they apply to multiple targets. Another reason to use BLMs over SMNs, if SMN is nerfed in the way I posted. I could address more points, but whether I agree with your points or not, you basically want SMNs nerfed because their burst is the best out of the ranged? Am I understanding this correctly?

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Their DoT DPS is a lot more than what I can speak for un-sweetspotted MCH. It won't kill well enough, but it's still damage that ends up needing to be healed (whereas fluff numbers would be things like fire II or bishop turret) or finishing off someone that survived your initial burst (which again, is a lot more than I can speak for a BRD/MCH that has to turn off WM/GB and attack from less-than-ideal) Cleansing takes a GCD on any healer regardless of its cast time; GCD used on cleansing is GCD not used for healing. Also, tri-bind hits multiple targets in the same manner as nightwing, so I can't truly say that BLM has a one up over that (even if they do have two abilities that can do, whats the practical standpoint of that and does it actually mean anything in practice).

A lot of things comes together that it's not just SMN's burst, but it's also the fact that the other ranged classes have burst and not much else beyond that. Alongside with that, SMN does not necessarily have that many meaningful weaknesses or downsides (since we are on the side of debating their survivability and escape, I hope I'm making myself clear that I really do not believe that SMN is any-more-or-less prone to dying than BLM, BRD or MCH in a given situation). You could say they have no escapes, but how often does that come into play? If you're with your alliance, no melee is realistically haphazardly jump/charge in, that's the equviliant of sticking their hands in a active blender.

What I'd like to see is have meaningful physical/magic defense setup. The way it is right now, the casters and healers have better resistance toward magic, but they also have lower hp pools (accounting the same amount of fending accessories are being used for comparison). To that sense and from previous experience, the healers are not dying (if they die at all) to me any easier than they are dying to a SMN (or a turreting BLM for that matter)'s burst. While melee in general have a better resistance toward physical damage (and especially DRG, and tanks, who typically have higher hp pools and more resistance in regards to the latter) making SMN's burst more effective at killing melee and especially more effective on killing tanks (BH/BF warriors specifically). The current setup of fights allow for SMN's burst to be the most versitile while minimizing their weaknesses. I'm not disagreeing that they ahve less CC/escapes compared to the other classes, but I just don't think it's applicable for it to be meaningful. A direct damage nerf would only solve one end (SMN's being upmost strongest) while exasperating the other issues (healers/astros not dying and making warriors even more fierce)

Honestly, you sound like you are arguing for the sake of arguing.