It's not that simple, though. If you're raiding at a very high level, chances are that healers adding DPS is the only way to add significantly more overall DPS than your actual damage dealers 'gitting gud'. If your damage dealers and tanks are already working at 95% of their maximum potential, what do you think will contribute more: Them reaching 100%, or one of your healers going from 0% DPS uptime to 50% DPS uptime, and the other healer chipping in with 25% DPS uptime?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiloni
Black Mage and Summoner healing is absolutely atrocious, though. You might've had a point with that if they had some kind of reverse Cleric Stance, but they don't, so. It's practically better to attempt to finish the encounter faster rather than trying to save a drowning tank by throwing paper towels at them. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by chumsy
Law Healer gear needs Accuracy.
Printable View
-
07-15-2015, 06:54 AMRaminax
-
07-15-2015, 06:57 AMLeiloniI think you need to reread Yoshi's quote and then get back to me on that thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raminax
He flat out said that raids are not designed to factor in healer dps and he emphasized twice in that quote that healers are not required to dps. He also said that people "raiding at a very high level" as you mention that do need healer dps to get by, are going in at below intended gear levels for the raid. So if you're undergeared and playing below what the developers recommend, perhaps to challenge yourself, then clearly you'll need to play in a different manner than intended. And he's well aware that people do that, but they also don't and will not in the future design raids to require that if players have appropriate gear. -
07-15-2015, 07:01 AMDarkerOrange
Exactly. While not really high end raiding, I can contribute 400-600 DPS on Alex NM 1, 3 and 4, and up to 900 DPS on Alex NM 2 as a SCH, which makes a big difference to the clear time of the fight.
EDIT: Yoshi's quote has nothing to do with whether healer's should DPS or not, it simply says that the fight is designed for 2 tanks and 4 dps to be able to clear it.
Healer DPS adds extra damage; therefore ending the fight quicker and making up for any mistakes while pushing new content. My DPS as a SCH was key for my static getting our first kills of T11, 12 and 13 pre-echo, while we were all a bit under-geared. -
07-15-2015, 07:07 AMLeiloniThat's... exactly what I said? People keep saying healers need to dps and the fact is they don't. If you go in with appropriate gear levels you can clear it without healers dpsing. Yoshi expects that people who want to push to clear raids first are going in undergeared and thus will need healers to dps to make up that gap. And he wants to encourage that among high end players (which is exactly why they don't force healers to dps, because it allows high end raiders to push themselves to do it better than the developers intended, either with less gear or faster). However when considering the average endgame player, he emphasizes twice that they do not to worry about healers dpsing as long as they're meeting the gear check. He was concerned non world first type players were concerned they had to do things a certain way and he's assuring them they don't. That the option to dps on a healer is only there for those that really want to push themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkerOrange
-
07-15-2015, 07:09 AMRaminaxI took issue with your last quote, mainly. :p That is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiloni
I simply felt it grossly simplified the situation when DPS is lacking. While I'm a supporter of healer DPS, I won't hate healers that don't DPS. Well, except for blatantly obvious places like Ravana. Mr./Mrs. Co-Healer, it's fine. Asylum is enough to bring the group up while Ravana spends an eternity channeling the next Liberation. Stop wasting MP on Helios spam. ~.~Quote:
Oh wait but no I have more! Both groups of healers can also tell their dps to "get gud" and also to get better gear. Healers that dps can say that they're helping carry cause the dps can't do it alone, and the healers that don't can say they need to be able to pump out more deeps. Should I go now?
-
07-15-2015, 07:15 AMLeiloniWell it is simple if you trust Yoshi. He said that if everyone is properly geared healers do not need to dps to clear the raid. So yes if you need (not want) your healers to dps in order to pass, then tanks or dps are either undergeared, or sub par dpsers (note he did not say players need to eek out every bit of dps in order to pass). He's emphasizing that the raids are designed for the most players to be able to pass it when playing reasonably well and properly geared - stat wise at least. So yes, if you need healer dps, it's because somebody else isn't pulling their weight. And that's not a bad thing if your goal is to do it better than the designers intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raminax
-
07-15-2015, 07:28 AMGallus
Extra DPS is 99% of the times good. If you can bring in DPS while keeping your party alive, then you are better than the healer who doesn't. Whether fights are designed with the DPS of 4 DPS in mind is completely irrelevant, I'm sure fights aren't designed around people dying either, yet in many tries you have people under weakness because someone has failed for instance a mechanic, the group with the healer who pushes DPS might make the cut there and still make it so that the boss doesn't enrage even in a run that was nowhere near perfect, the healer who doesn't DPS might see the boss enraging and their party wiping.
This isn't about if healers need to DPS or not, this is about taking a job and bringing the most out of it. This is exactly the same as when I went to T2 as tank with the 3 healer method. I would always go with Sword Oath and bring as much damage as I could, because the boss would pulse in AOE and do the same dmg to everyone in the party. Whenever I went with a healer in that turn, the tank would be under shield oath/defiance in ADS, honestly, it made me cry every time. "But you shouldn't need tank DPS in the first place because then there's something wrong with the DPS...", could use the same argument there. Thing is, you are bringing 15, when you could be bringing 20. -
07-15-2015, 08:05 AMLeiloniWell you can't actually use that argument cause they do take tank dps into account when designing the encounters. That's actually in the quote. Did you read the full quote?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallus
But the point is in no way does any healer ever need to dps in any circumstance. Yes clearly if you can do it it helps, that's pretty obvious and nobody ever debated that. People are trying to force the idea that it's necessary, or healers are bad if they don't, and that is simply not true. Trying to make other healers feel bad because you want to play at a top level is not the best way to encourage people. Even Yoshi stated the following:
Yoshi doesn't want people to feel like they have to and doesn't want the top tier, world first players to make others feel it's necessary either. The fact that in one short quote he emphasized twice (technically three times now that I reread it) that healers do not need to dps should be all you need. Any healer that wants to dps while also performing their other duties at a top level is going to be doing more yes. But healers that don't dps much or at all when it's not otherwise easy to do so (aka they are standing around doing nothing with plenty of mana, clearly that's a bad healer), should not be called "bad" for not doing something the designers are not expecting them to do. They are good healers doing what's expected of their job and doing it well. This sort of toxic attitude you guys are putting out is really detrimental to the community. Instead of putting people down for merely trying to meet expectations to the best of their ability and telling them they're not good enough, try something more positive and less hostile.Quote:
Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible.
-
07-15-2015, 04:52 PMGallusI read the full quote. Pretty sure SE never intended T2 to be done with 1 tank in off stance permanently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiloni
-
07-15-2015, 05:08 PMGallusExactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Leiloni
Do not generalize, I never asked another healer myself to DPS or aimed them with a gun telling them that if they did they were bad, no, never. But that doesn't mean that, when the topic arises on a forum, I'll post my opinion about it, because I genuinely think that "that healer in Ravana EX could've helped the party in clearing that 1% wipe where they twiddled their thumbs for the entire duration of prelude to liberation, liberation, swift liberation and final liberation." Also, you don't need to be mr.happy or among first world clears to bring in DPS there. This is a very wrong perception. Top tier raiders will just find more gaps to DPS, will do it better, safer and more efficiently, but this game has the most blatant downtimes I've ever seen in a videogame. Stuff like nerve gas from T11, overcharge from T10, black fires from T12...and a million more situations, you really really need to want to afk. I remember yesterday my static WHM said "I don't want to DPS this time around, I'm feeling slackish lol ^^". Well, he could handle 3 turns not doing so because he was falling asleep on the keyboard in T1. We both bring there an average of 550 DPS, so that's more than 1k DPS raidwide damage. What do you exactly do there as a "healer who doesn't want to DPS"? You literally spend 70% of the fight afking and overhealing? I mean fine...you will still not wipe, but oh man lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiloni