Story falls apart at the end...

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

This is essentially what the "bad comprimise" that I mentioned as the last of my points is about. I agree with you that other players may not force first-timers to skip them (and kicking in this case is an open-end-shut case of unwarranted kicking, the GMs probably decide very quickly in favour of the first-timers).

HOWEVER, the other way around, if you derive from that the other players must wait for the first-timers to finish watching CS before engaging with a boss - sorry, your arguments do not support that. This is what I meant with "there is neither a right to CS nor the right to speed-run". You get to watch the CS -> fine, but you will get left behind, no hard feelings. You skip the CS -> you can participate in the fights.

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Actually the people who want to Speed run, can just go elsewhere for their tomes. There's better ways anyhow. The roulette is not there for them to do as they please. It's there to get them into those instances to HELP the new people. Which is why you cannot queue for most roulettes as a group. I know I haven't done either of the two in over 4 months. Though I do like Praetorium for the music and such.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I know I haven't done either of the two in over 4 months. Though I do like Praetorium for the music and such.

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And this is exactly why the first-timers would be served worse than with the current situation:

- In the current situation, you get a sub-optimal experience, but you can complete the dungeon, see the bosses and the videos, but most often not in the same run.
- In the second scenario, players will wait for extreme long periods just to get into the dungeons. When Yoshi decided to give a (quite generous) bonus of 100 myths for Castrum, he probably had that in mind. It is similar to the Atma quest - almost everybody HATES it, but imaging the situation if it was not for it.

I appreciate your intention to help first-timers, but I think you seriously over-estimate the number of "good smaritans" on an average server.

Speedrunning CM and Prae for myth?....that's wrong on so many levels....even if you're tired of Brayflox...Amdapor Keep, Wanderer's Palace, Halatali are still faster than CM or Prae.

But I'm with him on the last point, I cannot force you to skip the CS it's your right to watch them....but you cannot force me to stay there all the same, if I have a tank and a healer to move on I'll move on.

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

I appreciate your intention to help first-timers, but I think you seriously over-estimate the number of "good smaritans" on an average server.

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Uh, no I don't. I know the majority of people want to speed run it and don't care about people wanting to watch cutscenes. That doesn't make them RIGHT however, which has been my whole point. It also means that these people don't have a right to try and ruin someone's first time through because they want to speed run.

You keep looking at it as a problem with the dungeons and cutscenes themselves. No, it's a problem with the player base. I'm not offering a fix, because you can't change some of these people. That still doesn't make them right.

The problem isn't the Story as you suggest. It's not the way the story was developed or plays out that is the problem.

The problem is the community who will not take a few extra minutes to let you enjoy your game. There's not a whole lot SE can do about that one.

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You keep looking at it as a problem with the dungeons and cutscenes themselves. No, it's a problem with the player base.

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As another thought on this matter, there is a current thread on this board where players make the point that it is, nowadays, hard to find a party to do T5. Well, let us compare:

Castrum gives you 100 myths. Almost everyone currently has a use for them. T5 gives you i95/i90 gear. Which is sort of "meh" in comparison with what you can get for your tombs of soldiery. So, from the point of a progressed player - why should one do T5 anymore if one has gotten to the point that he/she is bored by Twintania?

Now, as a thought experiment, take away the 100 myths from the Castrum run.

This isn't a single-player RPG. You've got all kinds of personalities with all sorts of quirks and all sorts of expectations. If you ever get a DF currently that wants to watch all the cutscenes, don't take it for granted. I personally hate cutscene skipping, but learning how to compromise with/accept what the rest of a large group wants is something that we've been doing since childhood. To do otherwise would be to act like a brat.

I think your best bet is to do as another player said(which is pretty much one of its reasons for being), which is to start recruiting a party using the Party Finder and specify how it's a story run with full cutscenes and such.

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Originally Posted by ispano

No, it's a problem with the player base.

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We have no dispute here.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I'm not offering a fix, because you can't change some of these people. That still doesn't make them right.

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That is correct, too. But what good is it to be ethically correct when it does not fix the problem? I am neither a sinner nor a saint, I am looking for a pragmatic solution that satisfies both "sides" of the argument. However, I have yet to conceive something better than the "bad compromise" I have described.

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Originally Posted by Erudain

Speedrunning CM and Prae for myth?....that's wrong on so many levels....even if you're tired of Brayflox...Amdapor Keep, Wanderer's Palace, Halatali are still faster than CM or Prae.

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Yes, they are faster. But by now (I will start my last Animus book today), I am so tired of ALL of them that every bit of variety is welcome.

The game was heavily rushed once again to meet its deadline so a lot of issues crop up near the end, you still clip through Praetorium's floor for example. That's why the other Castrums are still just there, simply not enough time to turn them into real dungeons even if they probably had the plans to do so for the main story, same with CT not being at launch when it was heavily advertised a year before with the excuse of it being too hard, though arguably it might also have been as an excuse to make in between catchup gear patches, same with Demon Wall glitching out all the time at launch, same with Twintania being so broken at launch. Old content has almost no priority by now so I doubt anything will be changed, it's all about the newest content anyway.

I understand their intention behind adding cutscenes to Castrum and Praetorium, it makes sense and is kinda neat the very first time but entirely falls apart afterwards because they are repeatable dungeons and it also doesn't really work with random people because you either have to make others wait or have to wait a bit yourself though waiting isn't really an issue personally, it was even worse when those two and AK were the only dungeons to farm at launch though.