Ok, so 10% damage reduction is left out because it can't be quantified? It is 10% reduction of incoming damage, Shield Oath is 20% reduction of incoming damage. Maybe I'm not understanding why 10% in one place cannot be quantified, but all of the other pure reductions can be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool
On the second:
Your absolutely right, in 8 man content, assuming it calls for 2 tanks, 2 tanks on the same target, you would get both benefits, this is optimal.
Singly, the difference becomes more noticeable, working with math we've all seen:
Assuming both have 6000 HP before stances
Warrior: 6000 * 1.25 = 7500
Paladin: 6000 + 20% dmg reduction = HP/(1 – 0.2) -> HP = 6000/0.8 = 7500
So without heals the effective health is the same, but things change once healing is taken into account. Tanks take 5k dmg over time and need to healed.
Paladin: 5000 * 0.8 = 4000 dmg to be healed
Warrior: 5000 * 0.9 (this is the missing factor) = 4500 dmg to be healed
White Mage Cure II = 1k
Paladin gets 1k * 4 = 4k to recap.
Warrior gets 1.2k * 4 = 4.8k to overheal 300.
That obviously doesn't account for all the other buffs, just Shield Oath vs. Defiance+Path, considering there is little or no reason that after the first 15 seconds of the fight Path should be dropping (or allowed to stay down after jumps and such).
Suggestion of Paladin "utility and fun" improvement
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12-24-2013, 07:16 AMEnfarious
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12-24-2013, 07:48 AMglen7187
I decided to check out the numbers myself. Using Valks damage calculator, assume all other variables are constant (weapon damage, potency, etc). I will only change the Strength attribute.
STR | Avg Weaponskill Damage | Avg Autoattack Damage
500 | 138.612 | 124.485
-10% STR from RoH 500*.1 = 50 so 500-50 = 450
450 | 126.037 | 113.107
126.037 / 138.612 = 0.909 ~ 91% which is about 9% damage reduction
113.107 / 124.485 = 0.908 ~ 91% which is about 9% damage reduction
600 STR:
600 | 163.762 | 147.241
-10% : 600*.1 = 60 so 600-60 = 540
540 | 148.672 | 133.587
148.672 / 163.762 = 0.907 ~ 91% again about 9% damage reduction
133.587 / 147.241 = 0.907 ~ 91% again about 9% damage reduction
I know this isn't a lot of data or trials, but for the most part it seems that RoH's STR reduction is a close damage reduction to Storm Path's 10%. That's probably why it seems negligible. -
12-24-2013, 08:02 AMSunah
There was another thread like this not too long ago and the op had great suggestions. They really just need to make the "Holy" side of paladin more useful because we all know its kind of..... lacking.
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12-24-2013, 08:08 AMEnfariousA fair point, if what your fighting uses only physical str based attacks. That is rarely the case. In most instances, where incoming damage tends to spike, it is from a magic source, effectively negating the eHP from Bulwark and RoH and it is never crit, negating returns from Awareness.Quote:
Originally Posted by glen7187
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12-24-2013, 08:10 AMEnfariousyeah, there have been a number of these threads, basically asking PLD to be more ... PLD. Like the PLDs of other FF titles where party support, and not just tanking/cover, was a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunah
Equal number, I'd guess, asking for a useful 3rd hit for the Riot Blade combo so that it can be used in Sword Oath and actually allow us some significant role as an OT. -
12-24-2013, 08:57 AMglen7187True, which is why Gamemako's thread stated that WARs would be good for fights where you can reliably anticipate burst damage. But for the most part the tanks in general are pretty even since that is more a of situational argument (since paladins are a bit better in some situations also).Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
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12-24-2013, 11:30 AMKitruI'll agree that PLD could use a non-high entity combo branching off of Riot Blade for OT purposes, but it's a complete and utter fallacy to say that WAR has better DPS than PLD. A properly played PLD, as a tank, is going to deal within 5% of the damage that a WAR deals and a properly played PLD in Sword Oath is actually going to deal *more* damage than a WAR thanks to the huge DPS increase from Sword Oath (that doesn't get caught by parsers).Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
The damage/enmity construct was one of the few things that was *amazingly* well balanced between the two classes in 2.0. They (largely) left it alone in 2.1 (they reduced the CD on Unchained by lowered WAR damage by "requiring" the low damage Storm's Path to be used) so it's stayed just as well balanced. The 2.1 changes just brought the survivability balance in line with the damage balance and PLD *still* has a substantial utility advantage over WAR (silence being the biggest point). -
12-26-2013, 06:18 AMEnfarious
I just couldn't forget the part about Sword Oath damage not being parsed, it appears in the chat log, so that just felt super wrong to me. I'd tested the 2 jobs before 2.1 to see which had the better dps, but didn't have all the SSs and data anymore, but a quick parsing (about 2 mins per stance) purely AA damage, to see whether or not this was correct:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ath_Shield.jpg
Shield Oath
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/..._Oath_None.jpg
No Oath
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Oath_Sword.jpg
Sword Oath
In Sword Oath there are 2 lines for every AA, basically you develop a double strike, it is parsed.
WAR has better single target damage and far more AoE utility, damage while actually holding hate, every point counts after all.
Silence is PLDs one saving grace, and easier play style I suppose. But end of it all, a WAR single target tanking is easier to keep upright (assuming they maintain Path), has better single target and AoE damage, has better eHP, has better mitigation rotations for "predictable" incoming damage, what am I missing?
Please do note though, not only am I not asking for nerfs to WAR (I wouldn't want one of my own jobs nerfed after all), I'm not asking for anything more for PLD than a useful combo, and for all jobs shorter activation on instant casts, wtf 2 seconds for HG to trigger ... -
12-26-2013, 07:50 AMSylariEven mulitarget damage?Quote:
The damage/enmity construct was one of the few things that was *amazingly* well balanced between the two classes in 2.0
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12-26-2013, 03:25 PMKitruNotice that I said that it was the damage/enmity construct, not just the damage construct. For AoE, the balance between the tanks isn't governed solely by damage and, even if it was, the two classes do not have anything approaching the same use paradigms governing their AoEs. As such, you can't really compare the value of a single instance of a PLD AoE to the value of a single instance of a WAR AoE because the overall effectiveness of the AoE "suites" (which they have to be looked at, even if they *are* composed of only 2 abilities) viewed within the scope of their respective use paradigms is what is against balanced against each other; tank AoE effectiveness is balanced asymmetrically across the multiple categories of comparison and multiple uses of an ability compared to a single use of another so a single direct comparison (e.g. one Flash against one Overpower) is going to give you a highly skewed interpretation of the total picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylari
PLD has Flash and CoS, which are used in sync. Since Flash deals no damage, PLD AoE damage capability is only 25 potency/GCD on average (enmity values are a bit wonky since I've yet to get any kind of real comparative enmity numbers for fully modified Flash and Overpower). However, Flash has a bunch of other attributes that have to be accounted for: it is effectively free (uses MP and you can almost indefinitely maintain FB>RB>Flash when you *do* run out after the large number of uses it requires to run out), has a more than 50% larger area of effect (90* arc at 8y radius is 16pi sq. yalms; 360* of 5y is 25pi sq. yalms; even if it's not 90*, which I can't be explicitly sure about, it would take a ~140-145* cone for the two to be of equal area, which Overpower most definitely is not), has a generally agreed up better *type* of area of effect (circle as opposed to cone), and brings a useful debuff along with it (Blind might not mean much against a single target, but, against a large number of enemies, the sheer number of attacks directed against the tank is going to give a strong averaging effect for the ~21 seconds that you can maintain it thanks to the law of large numbers).
WAR has Steel Cyclone and Overpower, which are used directly at odds with each other: you can either generate Wrath with single target combos in order to use Steel Cyclone or you can use Overpower and only generate Wrath via Infuriate. Furthermore, Overpower's enmity generation gets complicated by Maim, (Steel Cyclone is about Wrath generation so you'd be generating it as part of getting to use Steel Cyclone anyways) because you have to sacrifice 2 GCDs out of every 9-10 in order to maintain the buff (which means that, at best, Maim is roughly a break even on enmity generated over time because it's slightly more than a 20% reduction in potential animation time for a 20% increase in damage along with a couple ST attacks), as well as the *incredibly* high cost that allows it to be excessively spammed for a short time but forces you to just stand around doing nothing for an even longer period in order to recover (it costs 130/GCD and you regen 50/GCD so you can only use it 10-11 times from max TP before you run out of TP completely).
The PLD "rotation" for resource equilibrium (i.e. what they do in order to use their AoEs forever as opposed to just burning through resources) is FS>RB>Flash so you have to put the WAR AoE abilities within the same functional paradigm to compare them. WAR can already generate Wrath and drop Steel Cyclone pretty much forever, however, for Overpower, you can only use it once every 2.6 GCDs (130/50) in order to achieve resource equilibrium. If/when I get something resembling a given a reliable and sensible (the only number I've seen was something like 500 which seems to be a bit off) base potency (i.e. not factoring in Shield Oath) of Flash, I could analyze the AoE enmity generation given the FS>RB>Flash rotation compared to the use cases for Steel Cyclone and Overpower (since CoS is ), but the primary concern is damage, which, for PLDs is just a static 25 potency/GCD from Circle of Scorn. Overpower is used once every 2.6 GCDs, which, at 120 potency, is only 46 potency per GCD; Steel Cyclone is used once every 8.5 GCDs on average (either 8 or 9 GCDs depending upon at what point in your rotation you use it), which, at 266 potency (200 but ignores 25% damage penalty for 33% damage buff), equates to average 31.3 potency per GCD.
Of course, the numbers can't be looked at *explicitly* because PLD and WAR generate different real numbers based upon given potencies thanks to stance and CDs, but it's close enough to get a decent picture:
The WAR advantages are...
~33-90% more damage (which, you know, we were fully expecting)
Strong frontloading capability (you just have to *average* 1 Overpower per 2.6 GCDs, which means that you can use 5 right away and then sit back for 8 GCDs)
Multiple substantive paths (either use Steel Cyclone or use Overpower so you can choose the best option for the situation)
The WAR disadvantages are...
Exorbitantly high cost or exceptionally long period between uses (Overpower and Steel Cyclone respectively)
Smaller and more limited area of effect (with Overpower; SC is the same as Flash)
Mutually exclusive paths (SC and Overpower prevent the use of the other because of Wrath generation/requirements)
The PLD advantages are...
Low cost/high comparative use rate
Higher mitigation (both from Blind *and* from Shield, since WAR is not going to be able to use IB consistently during an AoE scenario)
Safety (Flash doesn't break CC and you don't have to use CoS to maintain AoE enmity because it's not high enmity)
~56% larger and better area of effect
The PLD disadvantages are...
Weaker frontloading capability (you can still Flash spam at the start rather than going for equilibrium; it's just not as strong as Overpower; of course, it doesn't hurt you as much as Overpower does)
Lower damage
As such, PLD and WAR are pretty well balanced, at least from a heuristic viewpoint (since their asymmetric capabilities prevent any hard and fast definitive analysis) since each has its own advantages. Tank AoE damage, itself, is a relatively minor consideration, which is why the proportional increase from Overpower seems like a lot but ends up being a much less significant advantage in situations where you're actually dealing with anyone else (since both DPS and healers are capable doing a metric crapton more AoE damage than either tank).