Real class balance feedback please

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Now you are just spamming junk without adding anything to the discussion.

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Actually, EasymodeX just followed your reasoning. A point was made, even if indirectly. If we're going to have a discussion about average damage, it is nonsensical to omit elements that contribute to the average and the conditions under which the results were obtained.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

My own experience, however, is that in turn 4 I was doing around 280 in all darklight except for pants and belt (they were AK) and relic (no +1 since all myth goes to my monk).
I also had a cheap HQ zircon ring (bite me).
Then I replaced the ring with a ilvl90 from turn 1.
Next time in turn 4, I was doing 330-350 consistently.

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Turn 4 DPS numbers are highly variable depending on how long you spend in each phase, RNG crits, fight approach, and other things. Our BLM has varied up to 50 DPS on a Turn 4 parse while he basically did the same thing both times (I think he misfired like 1 Flare on the low parse though, but 1 Flare does not make a 50 DPS difference). In addition, the way the damage output is done in Turn 4 leads to a situation where the performance of other classes will directly impact affect how long the BLM has on each phase.

As a simple example, if a BLM has a lower parse, it could be because the other classes did more AOE damage during phase 1/4, and have literally nothing to do with the BLM's performance themselves. Like all of a sudden the Dragoon remembered how to play their class and hit a BFB'd DFD during P1/4. With two button presses of another class, the BLM could lose 15-20 DPS. Or hey, the Bard remembered to use BV on their FR (or remembered to use FR at all instead of mana/TP?). Boom, 5-10% total DPS gain.

Personally, I virtually ignore T4 parses for any reliable data unless you're consistently getting the same result over like 10-20 attempts after your group has stabilized the overall fight pattern. Even then, I would ignore DPS numbers by "same class in different groups" unless they have the same comp and use the same fight pattern (kill order, etc) ... which doesn't happen.

For example, some groups could have the BLM kite the soldier in P5 or P6. This is a DPS loss for the BLM. A group could have the mages in P6 attack the Dread until the Knights are dead, then AOE the Soldiers + Spiders. This would inflate BLM DPS. Shrug.

Edit: T2 is a bit of a mess since different targets will have different damage resistances from the mechanics. T1 is the most stable ST DPS check, unless you're cool enough to deep dive into parses and check DPS against individual mobs like each miniADS separately, etc.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Snip

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You're right for the most part. I don't have a huge sample size to justify the disparity.
It's the same group and same strategy though. However, people's damage varies and there could have been more requiem after I got the ring anyway.

It's just sort of weird that with the same group and strat, with only a ring upgrade - I went from always being in the 200's to always in the 300's.
Again, that's probably just because of how aoe is in this game.

I don't think SE's balance is bad. I'm actually impressed with it for a launch.
I wouldn't be surprised though, if BLMs did have a slightly better scaling that becomes more apparent in full ilvl 90s.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Hey guys, average damage on a random attack is really meaningful to a damage per second discussion.



You must raid with some really bad #everyotherDPSinthegame.

Our SMN tops every ST chart on every fight, and our DPS comp is solid so it's not really anything but the class.

Not really blowing anyone out of the water, but has a noticeable step up on the rest of the group.

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Well you haven't downed T5 yet so I really don't take your opinion that seriously. Its obvious that you don't play with anybody worth noting since the boss isn't dead yet so how could I possibly take your word?

You gotta take a break from forum trolling buddy.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

I'm quite sure BLm is way above decent when it comes to single target.

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they are, they come out on top compared to summoner in turn 5

I was thinking about all these discussions this morning, and was wondering to myself, "why does anyone care? These people are maybe some of the best players playing, many have killed T5, why do they care?"

So I came up with a few answers.

1. They're secretly insecure. Thats kinda the copout though, so lets ignore this one. But if you get angry about this, imma put you in this group. Its also the catchall =D
2. They care so much about their personal dps because they want to be the best they can be. Thats pretty noble in a way, but then I want to ask, say your class is the lowest (or the highest) dps. Why does it matter? If you are doing as well as your class can possibly do, noone is going to fault you. Maybe for a certain fight your FC won't bring you. But that doesn't matter right, you want whats best for your FC. Or maybe you're afraid they will cut you. See point #1.
3. They want to know the best class for a fight because they want to be the best/most wanted/etc. Thats a decent reason, but its pretty late in this patch already. You've accomplished all you can do (or are on your way to). As far as I know no classes are being cut, but some are more desireable than others. Again, see #1.
4. They're worried that certain classes are incredibly unbalanced compared to the others. This is largely untrue, with the exception for BLM because that class is so broken, but not in ways of DPS. Until SE acknowledges they screwed up with infinite resource, I refuse to back down on this.
5. They just like to be right/argue. I fall under this category =D

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Basically people are idiots. . .

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LOL THIS GUY!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

I'll give you the short version. BRD is overpowered and is getting a well-deserved nerf. BLM is a bit on the high side and is also demanded for every endgame party, but probably won't be touched because it's reportedly Yoshi's favorite job. SMN is powerful, but has a few specific disadvantages (pet deaths, limited burst damage). MNK is potent except for a few nagging issues; it still shows up in raid groups very frequently. DRG is underpowered and will be buffed in 2.1.

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BLM won't be nerfed because in every MMO ever, the mage stays strong and desirable, period. Any nerfs will be minor. I would also melee always are somewhat weaker to ranged, but FFXI kind of went backwards on that one.

Of course, just because for some reason these always seem to be the case with previous MMOs, doesn't mean it'll be the case in XIV.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

4. They're worried that certain classes are incredibly unbalanced compared to the others. This is largely untrue, with the exception for BLM because that class is so broken, but not in ways of DPS. Until SE acknowledges they screwed up with infinite resource, I refuse to back down on this.

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Ummm.....Last time I checked, you could have full mana and do 0 DPS. I don't really see this as a kind of "broken" behavior as you might make it seem like.

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Originally Posted by Zer0mr

Ummm.....Last time I checked, you could have full mana and do 0 DPS. I don't really see this as a kind of "broken" behavior as you might make it seem like.

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Different players check different sources. Last time I checked with my sources, bad players still infest this game and make dumbass arguments about doing 0 DPS with full mana.

The other players who aren't delusional realize that an infinite resource pool for one class and no other class leads to overall game design issues and constraints in the long haul, even if the issues are not seen in big ways with present content.