Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

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Originally Posted by Miksu

That's fine.
I'm going to leave this at that.

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No I totally get you, the forums is not here for name shaming and I totally agree! It might have some consequences yes because the names aren't blured out, but in my case I don't think I'm going to focus on the characters name here but rather the topic, which the gifs brought up as well. And yeah I get you but lets leave it like this :). And no worries I know you only meant good intentions!

Back to topic: I wish people could stop paying attention to other things when they do fights, because it's not fun because someone cant pay attention to a simpel mechanic.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I'll always be confused by how someone can think a circle of arrows pointing inward means to run to the corner of the map, especially when it's been used in almost every fight for the last 2 years.

Some people have no sense.

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To be fair that is a viable tactic if you are a PLD... >.>

Some people might think that they wanted to be brought along while the others play well.

Other than that, they might be a new player or it's their first time.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

I did. days ago. my problem is that I don't trust you or anyone to have restraint with their standards. to keep them realistic, or really anything reasonable. Because while you might get people those things, I get "skip soaror disband" (I'm not joining those when I just came back from a break and arrive 3 weeks into the patch) or ilvl 320 requirements on Susano EX learning parties(current). I get one dude flipping out that people learning those EX's aren't pushing out 4200+ dps in patch 4.05.

Because the players in this game don't advertise their minimum acceptable standards in a group. they set standards that allow them leeway to make smooth, efficient runs with little to no wipes even when their group is learning. that has been my experience: people throwing the meta around like a beating stick even when it isn't appropriate. people using the top performers as a means of bullying the middle or lower end because it hurts their bottom line.

Why would I trust random peoples' standards if the bulk of the standards people I run into hold are like that? why would I allow others to subject me to theirs if I don't trust them to use moderation? I don't have to blindly trust what HyoMinPark because she blatantly explained hers with a degree of clarity. all you've posted in a list of exaggerated grievances with particularly clueless players no one in their right mind would support a group being subjected to. it's clearly hyperbolic even if the sheer quantity of players in this game guarantees they at least exist.

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Um....
Your comparing endgame farming to normal dungeons and expert, then it is explained in the first post.

The 2 situations are not related at all. Just admit you came here with a bias rant that was not fitting for the thread. I can make a PF saying I want ilevel340 gear people just to see if I can push a 12 min expert, it is my right to set different standards for PF, on top of endgame PF farming, and comparing it to normal DF randoms / solo queue for exp?

There is reasons for the skip soar meme, some people in i270 gear could have less dps then i230 gear, when you run into stuff like that, you have every right to kick them in a pf setting when someone is not meeting an easy passable benchmark if you know your job or bother to look online for a good rotation.

Also skip soar or disband pts usually depend on SKIPPING IT, meaning they drop a tank or healer or both? so when you have 6 or 5 dps under performing what 4 high skilled can do and fail to skip soar, that is a big issue, no qualms with disband. It is really no different then passing the vote abandon in SB's 24 man when they can't pass the dps checks on the second boss.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I know this is a bit off topic but honestly what is your purpose in this thread? Like, you clicked on it and decided to reply but to what end? What are you advocating? It sounds like you have a similar approach to bad play that many of the people you're arguing against employ so then... why are you here?

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I originally responded to the OP, and later joined a discussion related to 'lazy play' with ( i think the char name was hyo something rather? )

That discussion was primarily why I was here. A claim was made about 'lazy play'. The point I wanted to make is that you cant truly determine a player is being lazy unless they tell you they're being lazy. Data points like level are not indicators of lazy play.

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I would know where you stand.

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My stance is treating people who make these bad plays as if they are new/just dont know what to do. In addition, I believe that for most content, "poor performance" really doesnt matter that much. Initially, I believed the OP's "poor play" to be related to "poor performance" which i think is where some of the confusion originated.

For the sake of having an example of why poor performance doesnt matter on most content, let's say a BLM is spamming Freeze as their AoE rotation in a dungeon. If you attempt to assist them with their rotation, but they continue to spam freeze, you might kick them, but you kick them for their unwillingness to work with the group not their actual performance. If they were attempting the proper rotation but weren't flawless with execution, from my experience they dont get kicked / yelled at, etc, and its good that they stay in party so that they can practice.

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Originally Posted by ko_

Oh I'm not saying I want hour long runs. Hmm Let me explain better, I was more scared that from reading the comments that noone does dungeons and or hated them and that was why they wanted 15 min runs. It's been cleared up on why, but I won't lie and say it's not a fear I have reaching endgame. Mostly cause being 5 days old I'm hoping I'm not part of the problem. I haven't timed my runs but the last run of doma we finished with 75min left? something around there? might've been 70 mins I can't remember. I just remember it was 70. So it's a bit of me being worried about my own proformance and the fact i feel I'm the only one who loves being in the dungeons. But Bourne_endeavor cleared it up abit. So I thank her a million times for that. I stil worry over my proformance tho.

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75 would be 15 minutes so more than acceptable. :) Even 70 would still be a 20 minute dungeon run. The problem for quite some veterans is that we have run dungeons for a long time. Even I who dont run them that often have reached quite an amount of runs. If you run them again and again for years (especially if they are part of relic weapons) you just want them to be done, even if you like them.

In the end the most important thing is that everyone in a party should try their best. :) If I have someone in my group that is new and failing at stuff its fine. Heck even if you are an veteran you can fail. Nobody is perfect. (I still was a bit angry at myself when I once died at nearly all the towers in the new 24 man raid...yet the next run I only died once) Mistakes happens but as long as you try to do everything you can (and honestly I for example will never be at top DPS for summoner since I cant just get that opener down but I still try to do good.) even if that might still be on another level than someone else, its good. People are just annoyed at those that dont care at all. That are immune to any tips and that dont even understand the simply basics of their job.

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Originally Posted by winsock

That discussion was primarily why I was here. A claim was made about 'lazy play'. The point I wanted to make is that you cant truly determine a player is being lazy unless they tell you they're being lazy. Data points like level are not indicators of lazy play.

My stance is treating people who make these bad plays as if they are new/just dont know what to do.

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So that level 65 PLD (who also had multiple other level 70 jobs including DARK KNIGHT) I came across who couldn't hold hate on anything in Dusk Vigil leveling roulette so that I had to tank half the mobs in the pull on WHM (or the DPS tanked)....they were just new/didn't know what to do? Already has DRK at 70 along with a few other 70 jobs and can't hold hate in a leveling dungeon on a sync'd 65 PLD? They're just new and/or they just don't know what to do?

I think you're still floating out in that nebula 5million light years from planet Earth still if you think you cannot tell if laziness is a factor sometimes.

What excuse is there for a tank who has PLD at 65 and DRK at 70 to not know how to just simply hold hate on trash mobs by that point? Even ignoring mitigation just the simple task of just using level 6 Flash so that all three mobs stay on them instead of 2/3 ending up being tanked by the healer or other DPS?

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Originally Posted by winsock

snip.

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Your entire argument is giving every player you come across that is playing poorly the benefit of the doubt based on hypotheticals.

Also, no one is going to come out and admit that they are being lazy and don't feel like trying, the most you will get out of anyone is the "It's my sub" excuse if any response at all.

I think you place way too much faith in random people and for some odd reason just don't want to admit that there are players out there that deliberately play poorly because of reasons like "It's a game not a job" "It's my sub, I play how I want.


They have a word for people with your mentality. It's called Naiveté.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Snip

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Could have been someone who just sucks at tanking. And before you spout off "It's the easiest class to play!" it really is not for some people, myself included, hence I refuse to tank in this game because the same issues may occur that you just described and I don't want to do that to other people lol. But I agree with Winsock that its not always lazy play, maybe the player just sucks at tanking.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Your entire argument is giving every player you come across that is playing poorly the benefit of the doubt based on hypotheticals.

Also, no one is going to come out and admit that they are being lazy and don't feel like trying, the most you will get out of anyone is the "It's my sub" excuse if any response at all.

I think you place way too much faith in random people and for some odd reason just don't want to admit that there are players out there that deliberately play poorly because of reasons like "It's a game not a job" "It's my sub, I play how I want.


They have a word for people with your mentality. It's called Naiveté.

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so that is where naive comes from, neat. Yes you are correct.

@:

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Originally Posted by winsock

I originally responded to the OP, and later joined a discussion related to 'lazy play' with ( i think the char name was hyo something rather? )

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Have you ever talked or try talking to them? "You do not pay for my sub" is what one of my friends heard when asking for goad after she gave the person goad (2 sams)

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

Could have been someone who just sucks at tanking. And before you spout off "It's the easiest class to play!" it really is not for some people, myself included, hence I refuse to tank in this game because the same issues may occur that you just described and I don't want to do that to other people lol. But I agree with Winsock that its not always lazy play, maybe the player just sucks at tanking.

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pressing flash/overpower/ unleash enough is hard???

No excuse to have a tank at 70 on your second one without knowing the basics, this is why advance tutorials are needed, and you need pass them for each job before entering a DF.