Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

Then there's a knock at the door.

HEY! IT'S WUK LAMAT. HEY! REMEMBER WUK! REMEMBER HOW YOU CAN NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER BE RID OF HER!? WELL HERE SHE IS!

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...08/459/6f7.jpg

Many players wrote in the last expansion that there was far too little to do. And did SE learn from that?
No, instead they had the brilliant idea of ​​having our WoL almost exclusively be a spectator during the entire MSQ!
It's not satisfying to just run around as a maid for Wuk Lamat and do her job so she gets all the credit.
So what's coming in 8.0? Can we just forget about buying the expansion and instead stream the game on Twitch or YouTube and watch Yoshi play the MSQ with some random NPCs?
I paid 95.57 euros for Dawntrail, with game time + retainers... just to sing the praises of an NPC I can't stand.
There's almost no negative response that could have been given to Wuk Lamat in the entire MSQ.
Yoshi P. should have made it very clear to the players from the beginning what was going on, but as it is I feel completely deceived.
He should have told the players what role they will have in the next MSQ and I'm pretty sure half the players wouldn't have wasted their money on Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Sooo I got to Section 9 finally (Yeah I know im slow I have a busy life) and I was about to be let go to go explore section 9 and WL "come with me, not that im scared or anything" my response was fuck no give me a choice i wanna go alone but my character nodded... I officially wish WL would just fuck off for 5 minutes.

MSQ genuinely start off fine I wasnt too fussed but im tired of her now and I want my alone time with Graha who has had no screen time *angry auri noises*

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Wow weren't you a fervent Dawntrail MSQ defender before?

Anyway buckle up you get to enjoy even more Wuk all the way to the end :)

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Considering the quality of the EW patch writing, you'd think that would have been the test run for the writer that they failed and even more reason not to give them an entire expansion. Especially considering it's completely separate storyline. It's fine to give a new writer side content or an interlude storyline to give them a chance to prove themselves and get settled in, but here it feels like they simply assumed they would without ever checking the work and just gave them control automatically.

I don't know, maybe the positivity squad was still drowning out all criticism in 6.X? But then again, I wasn't really paying attention to the story feedback and even I heard some complaints. Like particularly about Zero being a very flat character and too central - So you'd think the editors would have been extra diligent when Wuk Lamat was pitched. There's a clear pattern of hyperfocusing on the writer's pet character emerging here.

Maybe they recorded all the lines super early and could no longer course correct, I don't know.

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Zero never stole spotlight from other characters or us, actually grew gradually and visibly, and never struck me as flat in the first place. YMMV on that last one, apparently. But she is not these problems. Her presence supported other characters' stories, like Vrtra, and the bonds she formed with the rest of us all made sense and were paced well.

Wuk Lamat was my favorite character of DT.

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Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin

I don't agree, they've tried to replicate Gaia and Ryne (and that one made sense because Gaia and Ryne had opposing elements) but it didn't work.

Wuk Lamat should not have that power level at all, we're saying she's topping Estinien which is completely absurd.
If it was a scene where her voice reached Sphene it would be okay, breaking through dimensions is not.

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Also, Krile and G'raha, what? Don't care enough about us to dynamis their way back into the arena, too? G'raha?

And, while I see the parallels of both being queens with Wuk Lamat, G'raha and Krile have their connections to Sphene that could have been expounded upon and used too.

Krile is literally one of her people, having been born in Alexanrdria. And G'raha was a ruler who had to guide his people through an apocalypse on a dying world for a century, which arguably means Sphene should have related to him more than Wuk Lamat.

The bonding and writing spotlight should have been spread around.

I'll need two posts for this! Sadly Wuk is written as a truly insufferable force of nature that we can’t get away from during the entire expansion and she suffocates everyone around her. The quality of writing throughout the entirety of the expansion is the major problem in all aspects, and Wuk is the major symptom caused by it. There are too many instances of quite clearly copy pasting almost exact lines from earlier expansions (e.g. “Hear, Feel, Think”) along with turning Scions into caricatures of themselves (e.g. Alphinaud firewood collecting once again), plus the constant callbacks by using OSTs from SHB & EW to try and invoke emotion / weight to the cutscenes they’re used in (e.g. Vrtra with Footfalls), which fails dramatically as players know (or should know) this is just a key jangling trope similar to what Disney Star Wars has become. The point of Dawntrail and this entire new saga they’re trying to create is supposed to be moving on from the ARR - EW saga, but they seem to be unable to let that go and need it as a crutch to try to support the poor themes and writing they’ve come up with.

I tried so hard for the first few zones in the game to try to like Wuk and let her grow on me, I’m the type of player that does every single side quest and takes on board every piece of lore in the game (four full playthroughs of the FFXIV including doing every sidequest available). MSQ 90 to 93 is a real chore in Dawntrail compared to HW through to EW, every previous expansion still had the same formula of two quests from NPCs taking you to two separate zones which build up the lore in each of those two areas. The HW to EW starting quests had way more intrigue, interesting dialogue and compelling world building than anything DT had to offer.

As I posted in another thread, the instanced fight at level 94 is what finally broke me and I finally accepted that this expansion wasn’t salvageable, where you have to fight Bakool Ja Ja as Wuk Lamat which is utterly ridiculous. People who are defending it and think Dynamis is what caused her power boost are fundamentally wrong according to the lore:

"Dynamis is another form of energy distinct from aether that permeates and conforms most of the physical universe, and in pure quantity is the more abundant of the two, accounting for approximately 68.3% of all known energy. However, its effect on the material realm is much weaker than aether's and is almost completely drowned out in the presence of equivalent amounts of aether. As such, dynamis only shows tangible effects when in large quantities, most notably outer space, away from comparatively aether-rich planets."

Humanity was sundered by Hydaelyn so that we had a chance to defeat Meteion by being able to interact with Dynamis in her own realm at the edge of existence, this is not possible on Etheirys as it is rich in aether.

In 6.55 it's visibly shown to us that she can barely handle a large talking parrot and is physically shaking due to her nerves and lack of combat prowess. So regardless of her having been previously trained by the Dawnservant Gulool Ja Ja, she is quite blatantly lacking in the combat department. During the initial level 90 MSQ quests at the start of Dawntrail, whilst each claimant is walking out one at a time from the palace, it is widely stated and recognised by other NPCs that she is significantly weaker in combat than the rest and has no achievements to her name. Then at level 90 MSQ during the Hanuhanu quests, Wuk attacks Bakool Ja Ja when he's threatening to destroy the Hanuhanu float. She literally says "I attacked him with everything I had" after he has blocked her and knocked her back with ridiculous ease, she's probably the equivalent of an average Marauder from the Marauder's guild in Limsa, nothing more.

The fact that she then steamrolls him at level 94 MSQ in the solo instance mentioned above is a complete joke, I was expecting her to at least have the presence of mind to stand aside and let us have that solo instance to toy with Bakool Ja Ja as we put him down. The only reason she is capable of this fight herself is plot armour and terrible writing.

THEN in the second half of the story, where she has absolutely no place being due to the fact she has zero experience of dealing with world ending catastrophes or any level of technological knowledge that could prove some insight or be helpful, she can somehow match Zarool Ja in hand to hand combat and destroy his soul regulator. This is beyond obscene as Zarool Ja had earlier defeated Bakool Ja Ja in a MSQ 92 cutscene with one attack, whilst holding back on the advice of Sareel Ja. Furthermore, Zarool Ja has also had an extra 30 years of combat training along with possessing vastly advanced weaponry and armour. He would be able to just one shot her without even trying, the power scaling in Dawntrail for their Mary Sue / Blackhole Sue is inexcusable, simply believing in yourself and "the Power of Peace" does not make you a vastly more proficient fighter I'm afraid.

Furthermore, she is practically put into the position of team leader during the final two zones, navigating us through this catastrophe when in reality she wouldn’t have a clue what was going on or what to do.

And then the final fight she of course has to burst in midway through (a lame copy of Thancred & Gaia in SHB plus Zenos in EW) and having dreadful pleading dialogue with SPEEEEEEN, tanks a full blown hit from Sphene with no issue and can practically solo the final trial on her own, becoming a god level killer for no logical reason whilst giving us, the Warrior of Light, a buff just due to her “inspiring presence”. At this point I think we can agree that the Warrior of Light gave in to despair and we swore under our breath at Emet-Selch for recommending us to seek the fabled golden cities of the New World…

ngl idk why people get mad at zero. she's meant to be an unrelatable alien with an ethical code that doesn't make sense, slowly rediscovering humanity through her interactions with people and then sharing that 'light' with golbez to rekindle hope for the 13th
she never kill-steals us, her power level is consistent and develops over time, and i would have hugely preferred adventuring with her over wuk lmao

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Originally Posted by rofland

ngl idk why people get mad at zero. she's meant to be an unrelatable alien with an ethical code that doesn't make sense, slowly rediscovering humanity through her interactions with people and then sharing that 'light' with golbez to rekindle hope for the 13th
she never kill-steals us, her power level is consistent and develops over time, and i would have hugely preferred adventuring with her over wuk lmao

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I liked Zero, she started out a stranger and went through an entire character arc, and ended up changing as a result of the world around her and her experiences in an environment that's utterly alien to her.

Wuk Lamat just warped the entire world around her so that she didn't have to change as a character, and there's no tangible difference between her at the start of DT and the end of DT aside from combat strength

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Originally Posted by BunnyQueen

Wuk Lamat was my favorite character of DT.

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it's ok to have poor taste

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Originally Posted by rofland

ngl idk why people get mad at zero. she's meant to be an unrelatable alien with an ethical code that doesn't make sense, slowly rediscovering humanity through her interactions with people and then sharing that 'light' with golbez to rekindle hope for the 13th
she never kill-steals us, her power level is consistent and develops over time, and i would have hugely preferred adventuring with her over wuk lmao

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Honestly I was surprised to find out some people disliked her. I thought she was perfectly fine.
Sure, she had a few moments that made me rise an eyebrow, but I also thought it made sense considering how detached she's supposed to be from her humanity.

On the other hand Poochie (Wuk Lamat) is just cringe.

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Originally Posted by rofland

ngl idk why people get mad at zero. she's meant to be an unrelatable alien with an ethical code that doesn't make sense, slowly rediscovering humanity through her interactions with people and then sharing that 'light' with golbez to rekindle hope for the 13th
she never kill-steals us, her power level is consistent and develops over time, and i would have hugely preferred adventuring with her over wuk lmao

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In hindsight, I imagine many players are finding themselves thinking they were too harsh on her. :3

For everyone on this forum trying to excuse bad writing might u actually chime in to say...Hildebrand does the same thing in terms of making us side characters but it also actually makes us do things. Its a reason why Hildebrand formula works better than wuk lamat formula....just saying. SO please stop acting like this is everyone first being sided when Hildebrand. Your spreading miss infomation when you do that.... ty

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I liked Zero, she started out a stranger and went through an entire character arc, and ended up changing as a result of the world around her and her experiences in an environment that's utterly alien to her.

Wuk Lamat just warped the entire world around her so that she didn't have to change as a character, and there's no tangible difference between her at the start of DT and the end of DT aside from combat strength

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there is some tangible differences for her, like, she DID lectured G'raha(the exarch) about how the political ruler thinking, and at some point advised WoL how to act in conversation....... which OBVIOUSLY should be other way around.

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

there is some tangible differences for her, like, she DID lectured G'raha(the exarch) about how the political ruler thinking, and at some point advised WoL how to act in conversation....... which OBVIOUSLY should be other way around.

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The former is just insulting considering that G'raha basically has (90?) years worth of experience and knowledge from the Crystal Exarch, not exactly a lore buff but it just seems silly considering G'raha's basically been a ruler of a civilization for much longer than Wuk's been alive, meanwhile Wuk's been Dawnservant for not even a week and just now learned vital information like traders like to trade and how Alpacas aren't that scary.

As for the latter, well, I don't remember that scene, DT was kind of a snoozefest so I think parts of my memory of the MSQ were purged.

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Originally Posted by rofland

ngl idk why people get mad at zero.

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Cus a simulacrum of Cecil Harvey will never beat the top dog himself.

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Originally Posted by MarianneviBrittania

In hindsight, I imagine many players are finding themselves thinking they were too harsh on her. :3

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Not really. Zero was a trash character who's probably someone's fantasy OC bodypillow at Square.

Wuk Lamat is somehow even worse than that.

SE doesn't seem to know how to write characters that aren't anime tropes at this point.

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Originally Posted by rofland

ngl idk why people get mad at zero. she's meant to be an unrelatable alien with an ethical code that doesn't make sense, slowly rediscovering humanity through her interactions with people and then sharing that 'light' with golbez to rekindle hope for the 13th
she never kill-steals us, her power level is consistent and develops over time, and i would have hugely preferred adventuring with her over wuk lmao

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I don't like Zero and it's because, just like Wuk Lamat, she has one personality trait which she keeps repeating the same things over and over and over, people give her a solution or an answer to her questionings, and yet she doesn't seem like she ever learns from it until the end. We had 4 patches of Zero being confused by the concept of friendship right after we just went through all of 6.0, which made her conflict very uninteresting and I felt like "been there, done that, why are we going through that again?" the whole way through. I just...couldn't care. In 6.1 they presented her as Zenos's avatar, and I thought that would be an interesting route to go through, maybe make more paralels on her feelings and his, but that was very quickly discarded in favor of repeating the same stuff over and over again, and giving her the same answers, to get the same reactions.
Even if the character is "meant to be unrelatable", then they should have stuff going for them that makes them more complex, or likeable. Funny spicy food scene wasn't enough for me.

It's not as bad as Wuk Lamat because her screentime is limited and they had to force "development" into her by the end, but I can guarantee it if it was a full expansion of her, more people would get tired.

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Originally Posted by AnotherHighlander

Not really. Zero was a trash character who's probably someone's fantasy OC bodypillow at Square.

Wuk Lamat is somehow even worse than that.

SE doesn't seem to know how to write characters that aren't anime tropes at this point.

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Hear, hear.

Its funny that all the wuk lamat defenders are hrothgar lol you just like her because furry you can relate to.

“Omg she is like me! My queeen. Must defend with my LIFE!”

Sorry but that doesnt make her a good character. She is awful. I am a miqo’te but there is some miqo’te that even I find annoying and awful I wouldn’t defend.

Zero was just a trial run for Wuk Lamat. They both take a similar role in the story and push other characters to the side. Zero wasn't as bad purely because she had less content. If she had a full expansion people would be just as annoyed.

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Originally Posted by Cerbolt

Zero was just a trial run for Wuk Lamat. They both take a similar role in the story and push other characters to the side. Zero wasn't as bad purely because she had less content. If she had a full expansion people would be just as annoyed.

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Nah, I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Cerbolt

Zero was just a trial run for Wuk Lamat. They both take a similar role in the story and push other characters to the side. Zero wasn't as bad purely because she had less content. If she had a full expansion people would be just as annoyed.

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Zero had less content and more character development, went from apathetic non-character into someone looking brightly towards the future with some established backstory. I would've infinitely enjoyed Zero more. Actually, crazy how she gets flashbacks and backstory despite the little time afforded to her but nothing like that for Wuk Lamat, all tell no show.
Also worst part about those patches was Jullus' voice actor, what even happened to him?

Drinking game for every time taco cat says we in the last trial and cs after.

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

Its funny that all the wuk lamat defenders are hrothgar lol you just like her because furry you can relate to.

“Omg she is like me! My queeen. Must defend with my LIFE!”

Sorry but that doesnt make her a good character. She is awful. I am a miqo’te but there is some miqo’te that even I find annoying and awful I wouldn’t defend.

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I feel bad for fem Hrothgar their lore representative is one of the worst main characters we have ever got.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

I feel bad for fem Hrothgar their lore representative is one of the worst main characters we have ever got.

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Yeah imagine if it had been some cool bozja queen. Even the mural hrothgar looked better than what they got.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Also, Krile and G'raha, what? Don't care enough about us to dynamis their way back into the arena, too? G'raha?

And, while I see the parallels of both being queens with Wuk Lamat, G'raha and Krile have their connections to Sphene that could have been expounded upon and used too.

Krile is literally one of her people, having been born in Alexanrdria. And G'raha was a ruler who had to guide his people through an apocalypse on a dying world for a century, which arguably means Sphene should have related to him more than Wuk Lamat.

The bonding and writing spotlight should have been spread around.

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Exactly this! G’raha went through the exact thing but didnt get to do much. But they throw the annoying character in front of us constantly. Who even wanted this?

People go on about “we are just there to mentor” So we mentor by just being in the background till the last fight where we do all the work then still dont get credit for it? But also get asked to stay there because even Woke Lapoop knows she is a failure without us or Koana. How are they expecting her to help raise the little guy when she cant even take care of herself or her people.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I don't want her to just disappear. I want the satisfaction of seeing her die to an enemy that I alone will kill with ease afterwards. It's not like other NPCs haven't died to a surprise attack before.

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I think it would be more amusing seeing her being chased off a cliff by an alpaca she's afraid of and dying from fall damage.

Wuk Lamat is as awesome character. Learns from her failures and she's got a cute personality! Love me some Wuk Lamat!!

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Also, Krile and G'raha, what? Don't care enough about us to dynamis their way back into the arena, too? G'raha?

And, while I see the parallels of both being queens with Wuk Lamat, G'raha and Krile have their connections to Sphene that could have been expounded upon and used too.

Krile is literally one of her people, having been born in Alexanrdria. And G'raha was a ruler who had to guide his people through an apocalypse on a dying world for a century, which arguably means Sphene should have related to him more than Wuk Lamat.

The bonding and writing spotlight should have been spread around.

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Amen to this.

Honestly, the way Wuk Lamat forcefully stays front and center in this story seems like a pointed offensive against player mindsets. It's like they are attempting to smash people's conception that the WoL is the main character of FFXIV by giving us this NPC who has the mask of being a main character, but none of what actually sells a main character.

Like her leaping into the fight to help WoL is practially a countdown to ending the fight, as much damage as she's doing/buffing the WoL to do, and it happens in the latter half of the fight... When Sphene was already on a back foot.

But I guess this trend of the WoL, "needing help" started back in Shadowbringers, and Shadowbringers was so successful they've sought to copy it twice now with how end trial fights resolve. Azem Stone into 8 man WoL team into villain nearly beats them with his big attack, into the WoL getting hypercharged by powers outside of the fight.

In Hades's fight, it was the Lightwarden light combining with The Blessing Light to both shield and increase damage from the WoL team. In Endwalker it's the Prayer bubble from the Scions that save WoL from Meteion's death surge of Dynamis. In Dawntrail... WoL is beating Sphene like a redheaded stepchild, and Wuk Lamat steps in anyway, super buffed, super buffing WoL and it goes from a murder to, "Stop, stop, she's already dead!"

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It's like they are attempting to smash people's conception that the WoL is the main character of FFXIV by giving us this NPC who has the mask of being a main character, but none of what actually sells a main character.

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I guess none of this bothered me because this is the way every FFXI expansion was written. So it felt more like a throwback than anything.

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Originally Posted by HealerGuy

Wuk Lamat is as awesome character. Learns from her failures and she's got a cute personality! Love me some Wuk Lamat!!

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I'm about halfway through the story and not really seeing the extreme hate people are having for the character. If I really wanted to be picky i'd say it would've been nice to actually have some training scenes with WoL and Wuk (ff7 flashback gym squats etc :P)

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Originally Posted by HealerGuy

Wuk Lamat is as awesome character. Learns from her failures and she's got a cute personality! Love me some Wuk Lamat!!

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What failure? Her getting kidnapped that one time and then not worrying about it at all until she somehow was able to beat someone easily that she couldn't even touch before despite showing no growth or gain in fighting power? No. Everything goes her way with little to no effort. Hell, even the giants that wanted to stop her were mcguffined out of actually challenging her world view. The father of Bakool Ja Ja just immediately does a 180 with the mere mention of another method, that isn't even guaranteed. This a guy who was ingrained so heaviliy in a cult like mentality, that not even his wife could get him to change, and Wuk, makes him just immediately.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I guess none of this bothered me because this is the way every FFXI expansion was written. So it felt more like a throwback than anything.

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Except ff11 did it better and didn't sideline our character and at least our character in 11 was acknowledged for helping in the story in that game even if we started as lowly adventurers at the start of each expansion we weren't relegated to side character status and was pretty equal to each lead female by the end of each expansions story.

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

No, it's not. People were AVERSE to trying Wind Waker because of the art style. Those who did play Wind Waker had valid complaints but the game was far from called trash.

The feedback Nintendo took from this was appropriate (even if the art style was really great in the end) and that was people didn't really want super cartoony art style for The Legend of Zelda series (at least not the main games).

To draw a parallel, I have friends who weren't interested in DT because of the way the expansion was pitched to us (through live letters and trailers). That's similar to what you saw with Wind Waker and those who didn't like the art style.

To say people playing DT, going through the story and expressing how it was not enjoyable is the same is a false equivalency. That's not an "initial impression".

It's the same as people saying "it's a new start to the story! You can't expect it to be good!"; the run time of the MSQ is longer than most seasons of TV shows and longer than movies by many hours.

How much hand waving is needed to try and get rid of valid criticism?

I didn't enjoy the first half of the story, I didn't like the middle part of the story and I really didn't like the ending. Is that an initial impression or do we need to keep moving the goal post for what/when we can consider feedback valid?

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I didn’t move any goalpost or handwave anything, I was just expanding on a side point. People did call wind Waker trash even after it came out because they weren’t able to look past the art style. There wasn’t this magical come to Jesus moment where everyone did a 180 on the game the day it came out. It took years for that negative sentiment to dissipate to where WW is now considered a Zelda classic

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

I'm about halfway through the story and not really seeing the extreme hate people are having for the character. If I really wanted to be picky i'd say it would've been nice to actually have some training scenes with WoL and Wuk (ff7 flashback gym squats etc :P)

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i WAS share the same mind, until I actually finished it anyway.
i hope you can maintain your perspective after you finished, unlike me.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I guess none of this bothered me because this is the way every FFXI expansion was written. So it felt more like a throwback than anything.

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Cannot imagine the damage that these writers will do to XI with the alliance raids. Fickblix had a better story then Wuk.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

I'm about halfway through the story and not really seeing the extreme hate people are having for the character. If I really wanted to be picky i'd say it would've been nice to actually have some training scenes with WoL and Wuk (ff7 flashback gym squats etc :P)

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I was like this til half way through, then I thought I would be set free and im known as a WL sympathizer but after the last 2 areas and the amount of decision making, bossing about, screen time and just literal WL overload I want her as our next trial, seriously SE, let us kill her or at least humiliate her, I was so heart broken for erenville and krile after area 5...

It's just... i dont want to see anymore of her.

At least Zero had a theme considering her background which properly explained her behavior even if people didn't accept it or agreed to it.

And people will continue to criticize Wuk Lamat for frankly we expected better and got mediocrity. Even her best traits start to fall flat after a while