Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Damage advantages never last.

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I hope so. I'd hate this job to stay this messy because "it does good DPS, nothing to see here".

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I hope so. I'd hate this job to stay this messy because "it does good DPS, nothing to see here".

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'member before GNB, when the tank balance was a scale of damage versus utility? Cuz I do.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

'member before GNB, when the tank balance was a scale of damage versus utility? Cuz I do.

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I don't remember that at all. Prior to GNB/ShB, the recurring problem SE had was that they kept making the tank with the most utility also deal the most damage, and the tank with the least utility sit on the bottom of the chart. Or sometimes the tank with an average amount of utility would be way out ahead in damage and the two with the most and least would be fighting each other for table scraps. There's never really been any sort of coherent design philosophy when it comes to how tank damage is balanced - a fine tradition which continues to this day!

I'm hoping for some sort of Sustain for DRK, doing dungeons with them is terrifying when you have a bad healer. When a healer dies to almost every mechanics and the DNC has to keep us alive? That is when I wished I lvled up WAR or PLD.

Damage is all well and good but I prefer to have utility just for the safety net.

Then again, they've never been really great with balancing and usually start off the expansions where some jobs are either royally fucked or so powerful that they just dominate in every team comp.

Your DPS doesn't matter if you can't stay alive to use it.
Does DRK's DPS allow him to down that is at 60% health after the healer died before getting KOed himself ? If that was the case, DRK would hit for 20k per strikes at least.
Only when the boss is very low on health will DRK's DPS make him on par with other tanks survivability. Basically like when a DPS is the only player remaining and the boss is at 3% HP. They can survive and kill it, doesn't mean they could have done it solo.

But why should soloing bosses be the standard? When the content is designed for multiple players, you should need everyone's help to clear. Solo runs and all tank runs of content are exciting to watch only when they are a demonstration of exceptional play. If anyone can show up and roll their face across the keyboard to do it, it's just not interesting.

I don't think that you can trade off mitigation vs. damage, but you could trade off self-healing vs. damage if there's a sufficient amount of incoming damage that it makes a difference in healer GCD usage. I think if we're going this route, though, Living Dead needs to change at bare minimum.

The broader utility and mitigation issue is harder to trade-off. What benefit to DRK and GNB have for having conditional mitigation moves based on damage type? The PLD and WAR equivalents have similar recasts, but work on all damage types.

This is largely a band-aid fix, and knowing SE they'll always give in to the cries of baby's first tank jobs sooner than provide any real fixes for DRK.

Mitigation feels like just enough for 90 content. I can manage wall to wall pulls fine enough with a good rotation and spamming TBN on cooldown. Just gotta pair your Oblations with Reprisal or Arm's Length.
I just want something more than just Souleater for health regain, because AD doesn't count for much until you hit 6+ targets.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

2) I'm not really sure what niche Oblation is designed to cover. This is a single target Reprisal, down to the cooldown timer. When coupled with other forms of damage resistance, it provides even less value than the listed 10% because they are multiplicative. It looks cool, but that's about it. I'd like it more if it was a 15% bubble.

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Throwaway auto mitigation, or a vuln stack nullifier. Though, I don't really know how much it's actually doing, so it might just be some pointless busywork.

Oblation feels like what a short CD cooldown would have been a few expansions prior, it's kind of like old shieltron in a way.

But yes I aggree that tanks soloing dungeon bosses shouldn't be the norm, that a tank might finish up a boss that is left at like 10 or 20% Hp, sure. if it's a boss with not a lot of auto attacks and just lots of mechanic times and position stuff, that should be doable.
But just... being able to solo most 80+ dungeons is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

I'm wondering if that's SE's tradeoff? DRK as little to no real sustain so they do more damage?

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if i wanted to be a DPS with almost zero selfsustain i play a DPS not a TANK.

With all the changes to self sustain and DRK toolkit. I only run dungeons on PLD now. DRK can do the trials and extreme trials when I get there but dungeons on a DRK compared to any other tank is not fun at all. You are literally asking your healer to be a bot for large pulls if they arent a WHM for the holy spam.

Right now they are focused on trial balance so if anything I see DRK getting a nerf before any type of sustain issues are addressed.

Oblation is a weird skill in that, while it does feel very weak and unsatisfying, it's also right on the cusp of being powerful with basically any small buff, in any direction:

If it were 15% mitigation instead of 10%, it would be strong.
If it had a 15s duration instead of 10s, it would be strong.
If the cooldown were reduced from 60s to 30s or even 45s, it would be strong.
If it had a heal attached, it would be strong.
If it had a Blood Price effect, it would be strong.

On the one hand, I can sort of understand why it isn't particularly strong: Given that you get it at level 82, the same level that Sheltron, Raw Intutition, and Heart of Stone get their upgrades, it's pretty obviously meant to be DRK's version of a companion effect to TBN - but since TBN at a baseline is considerably stronger than the pre-upgrade versions of those skills, it makes sense that its "upgrade" would be relatively small in comparison.
On the other hand, being considerably weaker than Knight's Resolve/Benediction, Stem the Flow/Tide, or Clarity/Catharsis of Corundum and having a full 60-second cooldown when those other buffs are applied on every use of their respective skills, is a bitter pill to swallow, and having a second charge doesn't really make things square.

I wonder if the best thing for it might be for TBN to get a trait at 82 that reduces the cooldown on Oblation by 30 seconds when it breaks, or even just expires.

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

if i wanted to be a DPS with almost zero selfsustain i play a DPS not a TANK.

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Self-sustain does not encompass any and all of a tank's defensive throughput, though. It's just the part (especially when reduced to flat cures per hit, as all are in EW) that's the least affected by timing, and typically therefore least affected by skill and typically therefore the least satisfying.

I expect more from a tank than to just be a dps with what amounts mostly just to a 90s 20%, a 120s 30% defensive, and a rolling self-HoT. All these HoTs and cures-per-hit are a bandwagon I'd honestly rather DRK stay clear of, focusing instead on defensive throughput more affected by timing.

As far I can tell, we're only good with bursting. GNB still will out damage you in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

As far I can tell, we're only good with bursting. GNB still will out damage you in the long run.

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Drop down as 'low' as the 99th percentile and you'll find DRK on top "in the long run" too.

There's all of 8 recorded parses worldwide in which GNB has beat out DRK, and there was a DRK in only 2 of those GNB's groups, so some of that is arguably skewed by fight length to put GNB ahead of DRK (and by an inconsequential amount at that).

DRK really is doing fine damage-wise. It's everything else that's at issue.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Self-sustain does not encompass any and all of a tank's defensive throughput, though. It's just the part (especially when reduced to flat cures per hit, as all are in EW) that's the least affected by timing, and typically therefore least affected by skill and typically therefore the least satisfying.

I expect more from a tank than to just be a dps with what amounts mostly just to a 90s 20%, a 120s 30% defensive, and a rolling self-HoT. All these HoTs and cures-per-hit are a bandwagon I'd honestly rather DRK stay clear of, focusing instead on defensive throughput more affected by timing.

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I don't usually agree with you but this post 100%, the good timing and reward for it is satisfying.

I'd much prefer healing to be something you time or choose to use, like the old abyssal spam that could top you up, or using Dark Art Soul Eater (though would need to make it so it doesn't increase damage, just the heal) or, and I know some will feel bad from this, Clemency.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

I'd much prefer healing to be something you time or choose to use, like the old abyssal spam that could top you up, or using Dark Art Soul Eater (though would need to make it so it doesn't increase damage, just the heal) or, and I know some will feel bad from this, Clemency.

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You can still sort of do that with current Abyssal Drain but it's 60s CD and could be Life or Death if you use it up at the wrong time. Risk feels higher, nearly all your eggs in one basket at that moment sort of feel. These days I try to time it on at least 4+ Mobs and if TBN is about few seconds away from being up while health is plummeting under 50%. I give healers a chance to do something before hitting that AD button and raising TBN shields. And No, I'm not eating these hits unmitigated, Rampart/Shadow Wall/Oblation/Reprisal etc is always rotated or I'm a dead man.

Abyssal drain is sadly only useful against massive packs of mobs.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Abyssal drain is sadly only useful against massive packs of mobs.

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And even then its mostly a One time use thing...

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Abyssal drain is sadly only useful against massive packs of mobs.

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Yeah unfortunately.

What I would've give to have Unleash + Stalwart Soul upgraded to be DRK's AOE version of Soul Eater Combo, especially for small 3 pack mobs.

I'd prefer abyssal drain to cost mp but be spammable, and free under a tbn DA proc. That'd be more interresting.

I think it says a lot about DRK design and gameplay when it's simultaneously the highest dps tank in the game in EX and yet the least popular by a landslide.

Is it the least popular? Cause I know a lot of the more casual players play this job purely for the aesthetic alone, including me. I hope you're right though.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

I'd prefer abyssal drain to cost mp but be spammable, and free under a tbn DA proc. That'd be more interresting.

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Make it the same damage/mp as flood, except it doesnt refresh your buff. (its still a ranged circle, rather than a line.)
While there is still no single target options, this alone makes DRK sound a BUTT load more fun!

Tbh, I would love more MP spenders that dealt higher damage, but didn't give Darkside as a result. Could've been the new Shadowbringer skill, use that rather than EoS/FoS if you have enough Darkside to last.

To deal with button bloat, those could've been replacements for the bloodgauge abilities. HELL! Make Bloodspiller and Quietus cost 3k mp, but not give Darkside!!!!

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

Is it the least popular? Cause I know a lot of the more casual players play this job purely for the aesthetic alone, including me. I hope you're right though.

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The best publicly-available information we have is from the Statistics page on FFLogs, which (among other things) tracks the total number of parsed/uploaded clears for each class.

At the moment, the combined page for both of the current Extreme trials there looks like this:
https://i.imgur.com/x3UP8Ru.png

Proportionally, the gap has stayed roughly constant since the Statistics page went live (so people haven't flocked over to DRK once they could see that it was dealing higher damage than the others). Based on those numbers, every tank "should" have about 42600 listings, so DRK is sitting at about 66.6% (appropriate) of the use rate that SE presumably would like for it to have.

Doing a quick look through the statistics page on previous raid tiers, the only ones I can find where a tank had a use rate lower than 66.6% of the ideal/expected rate were Gordias, where PLD was used about 59% as much as it 'should' have been, Deltascape, where DRK was used 62% as much as it should have been, and Sigmascape, where DRK was used 49% as much as it 'should' have been.

The glaring difference between the current situation (if it carries over into Savage) and all of those is that in each of the previous three cases, the class with the low use rate was doing considerably less damage than the others, whereas 6.0 DRK is generally dealing more.

It's pretty hard for me to interpret that as anything other than players simply not finding the job fun to play.

That's actually really good to hear. Maybe I should jump the ship for a little bit too, so I can help secure a rework in the future.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

That's actually really good to hear. Maybe I should jump the ship for a little bit too, so I can help secure a rework in the future.

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Tfw the best thing one can do for their favorite job is to not play it...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tfw the best thing one can do for their favorite job is to not play it...

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Pretty much... I wanna continue playing it, but I don't wanna keep the job from getting the rework it deserves. I just wish I knew if me joining the numbers is actually gonna help make an impact. I mean, I'm only one out of the entire playerbase LOL.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

Pretty much... I wanna continue playing it, but I don't wanna keep the job from getting the rework it deserves. I just wish I knew if me joining the numbers is actually gonna help make an impact. I mean, I'm only one out of the entire playerbase LOL.

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Yep.. im switching to Reaper for the Edgelord feel now...
And paladin when i want to tank its just have waaay more and fun and better tanking tools.

im not touching DRK until they not fix its selfsustain.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tfw the best thing one can do for their favorite job is to not play it...

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That's unfortunately the ass backwards situation we find ourselves in when job reworks are entirely dependent on how many people play a job and not on how well the job is actually designed.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's unfortunately the ass backwards situation we find ourselves in when job reworks are entirely dependent on how many people play a job and not on how well the job is actually designed.

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I played MAAAAAANY MMORPGs in my life... and i can say that thats how 90% of the MMO Dev teams balance classes out there.

Oh you guys, I'm laying off my DRK for a bit to level up GNB to do my part before patch 6.01 and finally got to mess with Heart of Corundum.

HOC is very nice for a short mitigation CD, the 18.8% of HP Bar Heal that kicks in after 20s or when health drops below 50% feels so good, use it and don't have to worry about it. Doesn't ever feel like a waste because of the heal condition of 20s or 50% or below health.

I just saw someone suggest Oblation restore MP when you're hit. I would love that tbh, especially since you can put it on other people. It would be a cooler Blood Price that would reward you for defending other people or yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

I just saw someone suggest Oblation restore MP when you're hit. I would love that tbh, especially since you can put it on other people. It would be a cooler Blood Price that would reward you for defending other people or yourself.

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It would basically be Blood Price 2.0, I'd definitely vouch for that.

I don't mind Oblation restoring Mana from being hit either, if we can't have a bit more HP Sustain then at least let us have more Mana for TBN, Edge/Floods to kill the Mob Packs and Bosses faster.

If DRK is destined to suffer and maybe die in battle then let us take our enemies down with us quicker.

Seeing the thread about pld being the weakest is really eye opening. Pld’s only gotten stronger in terms of mitigation and utility but just because it does less damage it’s somehow the worst tank now. And how someone can think pld’s issues are never addressed and constantly shit on is just beyond me. Almost everyone can agree that pld was the best tank overall in ShB. But now they are shit just because they aren’t the second highest dps all the while having the most utility, good passive sustain, and holy sheltron mitigating up to 30% damage on a short cd.

The part about passage of arm being useless is most baffling. It’s probably the best ability in the game in terms of job fantasy and function.

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Originally Posted by ArthurATDayne

I don't mind Oblation restoring Mana from being hit either, if we can't have a bit more HP Sustain then at least let us have more Mana for TBN, Edge/Floods to kill the Mob Packs and Bosses faster.

If DRK is destined to suffer and maybe die in battle then let us take our enemies down with us quicker.

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I would like if Blood Weapon gave lifesteal, and Oblation made us recover MP when hit. Then add a cure or regen when TBN breaks. Maybe give Dark Mind some more usage, and when you pair it with TBN, it gives you regen.

If all those things happened, I would be more than happy. Even with the current rotation.

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Originally Posted by Jakulo

Seeing the thread about pld being the weakest is really eye opening. Pld’s only gotten stronger in terms of mitigation and utility but just because it does less damage it’s somehow the worst tank now. And how someone can think pld’s issues are never addressed and constantly shit on is just beyond me. Almost everyone can agree that pld was the best tank overall in ShB. But now they are shit just because they aren’t the second highest dps all the while having the most utility, good passive sustain, and holy sheltron mitigating up to 30% damage on a short cd.

The part about passage of arm being useless is most baffling. It’s probably the best ability in the game in terms of job fantasy and function.

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Yeah, they really have no reason to complain. At least their job HAS a lot of identity. There's gonna be a balance patch that buffs them anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

I would like if Blood Weapon gave lifesteal, and Oblation made us recover MP when hit. Then add a cure or regen when TBN breaks. Maybe give Dark Mind some more usage, and when you pair it with TBN, it gives you regen.

If all those things happened, I would be more than happy. Even with the current rotation.

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I'll say only nice things about Square Enix and DRK Devs if that happens... hopefully by next week's balance patch 6.01, even if it's just 1 or 2 of those things mentioned that addresses HP Sustain. If they nerf anything else it's gonna get ugly.