How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

The total secondary stats offered on raid gear increased more slowly than primary stats throughout the expansion (both roughly linear, though). Most of those numbers don't mean much to a layman, and a more interested player would still only really care about being in the right ballpark... so the net effect is that there is a serious chance of worse itemization with a new tier, and you'll even notice it, too. Not sure if want....

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Originally Posted by Krindor

I was paying quite a lot of attention to it, especially because I LB I have nothing to do for 2-3 seconds. From what I noted, it's 2 points per add per second(Not completely sure about the time) if a person is not engaged and 1 if someone is engaged. When I LB I don't engage with the add and it ticks for 5 instead of 4. But need a bit more testing, could go through my streams and look more into it as I'm quite interested in exactly how much time you have in there.

Looking through my video, it ticks every 2 seconds meaning that completely unengaged it would take 2*100/2*4 seconds. Or 25 seconds to wipe. All engaged is double of that, so 50 seconds.

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That sounds more right. The lesson here is don't do translations for your group at 3AM, then copy it way later without finding the original link, I guess.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

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Actually, I shouldn't be checking this stuff at 2 am as well, you were actually correct. Looking over it again, with 2 adds without a target(I LB healer then kill dps add) It was ticking for 4-5 every seconds. But after the first add was killed with LB, before engaging the second add it was still ticking for 4-5. After engaging the 2nd add the ticking went down to 1-2 per second. It was still 1-2 per second when there was only one add alive as well. I need a bit more data to reach a final conclusion but with the current data I believe the amount of adds alive have no relation to the gague increased per second and the only thing that matters is if they are engaged or not. If all adds are engaged it ticks for 1-2 per second, if 1 or more adds are not engaged 4-5 per second. To add on from what you said in the first post, that repleneshing the dots before entering would lose you time. If what is said is true, yes you lose time, but it wouldn't matter if there was 1 or all 4 repleneshing at the same time, the maximum it can tick for is 4-5. But I need to find a vid where no one engages the adds to conclude this.

EDIT: This was the video I used for the times: https://www.twitch.tv/krindor/v/108480938

lol is there something going on with DRG now?

i just check fflogs and DRG is at the bottom of dps now, i remember last month we are somewhere in mid, did something happened?

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Originally Posted by gumas

lol is there something going on with DRG now?

i just check fflogs and DRG is at the bottom of dps now, i remember last month we are somewhere in mid, did something happened?

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Gear nerf is strong for DRG, more people are reaching BiS and nins BiS is extremely good while DRG got shafted. Though there's also a difference in skill ceiling as can be seen where DRG has a higher one, at 75th % Nin is ahead, 80th they're equal and after that DRG is ahead.

May I ask what is the BiS for going into A12S (counting you have everything before A12S, including the Augmented shire weapon), I'm having difficulty getting the skillspeed needed to get to 590 at least even with the alexandrian earrings equipped. Any help of what would be BiS going into A12s?

Thanks, appreciated.

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Originally Posted by ValeriaL

May I ask what is the BiS for going into A12S (counting you have everything before A12S, including the Augmented shire weapon), I'm having difficulty getting the skillspeed needed to get to 590 at least even with the alexandrian earrings equipped. Any help of what would be BiS going into A12s?

Thanks, appreciated.

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Have you tried melding Skill Speed to meet the cap? And maybe temporarily replace Shire pants with Alex pants (that one gives a lot of skill speed).

I did that fight with <500 SS for a couple weeks. Wasn't great, but the DPS checks are not that strict anyway. Honestly wouldn't bother unless you are finding it impossible to manage. The fight has so many downtimes that SS there is mainly about difficulty, not theoretical gains.

I have a question. If I use any of the jumps immediately after disembowel will they be effected by disembowel or should I wait until after chaos thrust?

Disembowel is not already on the target.

I have a few questions..
Question 1)
H -> [BL+BFB] -> ID -> [IR+BOTD] -> DI -> [DRAC-POT] -> CT -> [PS+ LEGS] -> 4TH -> Fracture-> [JUMP] -> P -> [SSD] -> TT -> [DFD] -> VP -> [LIFES + GK] -> FT -> 4TH -> Repeat
If this is my rotation, do i always use every skill in this order? Skills like Jump usually will be up before i get to it if follow this rotation in order. So should i hold them until i get to them?(Im referring to the second or third time i go through this rotation when the cooldowns are refreshing mid rotation) I have been attempting to always follow this order and avoid breaking it but i feel like maybe that is holding back my dps when i do not press the oGCD skills.

Question 2) Is fracture worth wasting my TP and my GCD? I believe i heard that it provides very little dps and at the cost of more TP than it is worth to some people.

Question 3) Should i AoE in dungeons if i have more than 2 monsters(Obviously not going to AoE 2 or less - because math) and if so, how should i do it? I generally do this: H -> [BL+BFB] -> [IR+BOTD+GK+DFD] And spam ring of thorns until everything is dead, unless the monsters are in a pretty straight line and then i spam the other aoe.

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

I have a question. If I use any of the jumps immediately after disembowel will they be effected by disembowel or should I wait until after chaos thrust?

Disembowel is not already on the target.

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AFAIK the effect is only active when the icon shows up on the boss which is after the animation finishes for disembowel.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I have a few questions..

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1) Take Fracture off of your hotbar. Otherwise your opener is okay.

2) There is a myriad reasons to NOT use Fracture on DRG. It was bad at level 50 - it is terrible at level 60. Between those reasons is the massive TP cost and the fact DRG's rotation is tight as it is - tossing fracture inbetween WILL mess up your BOTD timing and general ogcd/cooldown management.

3) I generally AOE only if there's 4 mobs. 3 or less it's still a gain if you can spam Doom Spike, but I don't normally do it because that's when pulls are ending and it's good to save some TP. Rule of thumb: Never weave enough ogcds that it makes your GCD hang. For AOE, I do BL > H > IR+B4B > RoT > DfD > DS > Botd + PowerS > DS > Jump > DS > Geirs > DS till sub 500 TP while weaving the other ogcds, then more DS till sub 500 TP again.

Reason I do this is to take advantage of the botd to get a super buffed jump in the main mob I'm targetting - you're only going to get 1 GSK on that botd regardless, so it's not a loss unless mobs start dying before you use it, which usually doesn't happen. Don't spam RoT, it's terrible. It's a straight 60 potency loss per mob you'd hit with a Doom Spike. Line yourself up to the mob pack, aim at the farthest possible targest and go to town on Doom Spike.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

aim at the farthest possible targest and go to town on Doom Spike.

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First, Thank you very much for your time and advice.
Why the furthest target? Does doomspike stop when it reaches the intended target or something?
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What about changing the order of my rotation? Is it a dps loss to use oGCDs like [Internal Realese] asap instead of waiting for them in the rotations order?

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

First, Thank you very much for your time and advice.
Why the furthest target? Does doomspike stop when it reaches the intended target or something?
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What about changing the order of my rotation? Is it a dps loss to use oGCDs like [Internal Realese] asap instead of waiting for them in the rotations order?

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aiming at the furthest allows you to make sure you get everything in between you and the mob. Doom spike requires positioning to make the most of it, if you happen to target the mob right beside you, your character will just aim at it and chances are that youre going to miss a couple mobs. so when using doom spike, you want to target the furthest, and make sure theres as many mobs in between you and it.

Using ogcd on cooldown is usually the best way to go, unless you know they aren't going to apply on your dots, like, if you use IR a GCD too soon that it doesnt buff chaos thrust or some stuff, but if you play it well, usually it shouldnt happen. Also, reality being what it is, its up to you to know when to use certain oGCD depending on the fight. if you're using BFB and the boss jumps right after, its a huge waste and dps loss. But on a dummy fight with no downtime, using stuff on CD is the way to go.

It can also happen that multiple stuff becomes available at the same time, what I do is I use the biggest cooldown in priority, unless it can buff the damage of the next ogcd (IR, BL, BFB). I'm talking more about jumps and legsweep. Not too sure if thats the way to handle it, that's just how I do it tho so dont quote me on this pl0x.

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Originally Posted by Spayd

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Ok thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Spayd

It can also happen that multiple stuff becomes available at the same time, what I do is I use the biggest cooldown in priority, unless it can buff the damage of the next ogcd (IR, BL, BFB). I'm talking more about jumps and legsweep. Not too sure if thats the way to handle it, that's just how I do it tho so dont quote me on this pl0x.

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This is fine! Most things that are priority are that way simply because their cooldown is shorter. There are exceptions, but it's usually fight-specific knowledge, using your dives for something besides single-target melee damage (which... is usually fight-specific knowledge), or the boss being almost dead so maybe you don't get to use everything.

In most cases, the cooldown conflict is largely avoided because the first uses were staggered, but life ain't perfect.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

1) Take Fracture off of your hotbar. Otherwise your opener is okay.

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Fracture has uses this tier, namely in a11 and a12. You can fracture Cruise Chaser during the numbered Limit Cuts and get free DPS. Fracture can also be used on Alexander during second Temporal Stasis and Inceptions in some situations. Certainly more useful than Mantra.

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

Fracture has uses this tier, namely in a11 and a12. You can fracture Cruise Chaser during the numbered Limit Cuts and get free DPS. Fracture can also be used on Alexander during second Temporal Stasis and Inceptions in some situations. Certainly more useful than Mantra.

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Wait, cruise chaser takes damage during numbered Limit Cut? I thought he was invuln.

It is invulnerable, although it's the kind where you can get Heavy Thrust up instead of the pure no-sell kind.

Fracture is not part of the Alex-raiding toolkit. Our filler combo is better than it, even without Disembowel or BotD.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

It is invulnerable, although it's the kind where you can get Heavy Thrust up instead of the pure no-sell kind.

Fracture is not part of the Alex-raiding toolkit. Our filler combo is better than it, even without Disembowel or BotD.

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This is incorrect. I don't know why they've decided to code his invulnerability differently from the usual but DoTs that are applied during Limit Cut invulnerability start ticking as they would normally after the invuln wears off.
Example.
I don't see how free damage that doesn't invade our combo can ever be a bad thing, it's not a lot but DPS is DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

This is incorrect. I don't know why they've decided to code his invulnerability differently from the usual but DoTs that are applied during Limit Cut invulnerability start ticking as they would normally after the invuln wears off.
Example.
I don't see how free damage that doesn't invade our combo can ever be a bad thing, it's not a lot but DPS is DPS.

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Thats a fascinating idea, imma try to test it out.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

It is invulnerable, although it's the kind where you can get Heavy Thrust up instead of the pure no-sell kind.

Fracture is not part of the Alex-raiding toolkit. Our filler combo is better than it, even without Disembowel or BotD.

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The damage sent over the network for checking dots is > 0 so the invuln during this phase acts more like a shield that absorbs all damage.

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

This is incorrect. I don't know why they've decided to code his invulnerability differently from the usual but DoTs that are applied during Limit Cut invulnerability start ticking as they would normally after the invuln wears off.
Example.
I don't see how free damage that doesn't invade our combo can ever be a bad thing, it's not a lot but DPS is DPS.

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Now hold on, I'm not sure where I lost the message, but I didn't say Cruise Chaser doesn't take on effects!

Anyhow, that damage is NOT free, citizen. It's about what opportunities you sacrifice... specifically, the chance to advance the regular rotation sooner. In the general case, that is better than 80ish potency from Fracture.

That said, I suppose I do not have a counterargument for that particular run because I avoid dealing in gamble-crafting or run-specific knowledge. Advancing the rotation a GCD sooner would have been a net loss (albeit a small one). More importantly, though, the person who can productively use all four hits in that phase is supposed to outdamage someone who can only productively use one or two. When you get to such NP quantum script-boggling dynamics, then yeah I suppose you are looking at a different toolkit. It ain't what I call raiding though, that is officially next-level, and yes you may put that on your resume if you like.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

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I might just be misunderstanding, but it's possible to pull Fracture > HT > ID > Dis resulting in a prepped CT + 2-3 fracture ticks at close to 100% of the time. So the only thing sacrificed would be either 5% mantra of blood bath, if that is worth 40-60 potency or not per fight, I don't know.

What's more important during limit cut is using botd while invuln. If group dps is high, you'll push the boss below 63% before left/right sword, and if you used botd after numbers, botd will not be up after ATM.

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

Fracture has uses this tier, namely in a11 and a12. You can fracture Cruise Chaser during the numbered Limit Cuts and get free DPS. Fracture can also be used on Alexander during second Temporal Stasis and Inceptions in some situations. Certainly more useful than Mantra.

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Your Fracture did a total of 1700 damage to Cruise Chaser. That's literally 3ish DPS over the 7:46 encounter. I don't see how that is worth the loss of Mantra (granted, untraited Mantra is weak but still...) or the fact you could be advancing your rotation sooner to have Disembowel up asap for your MCH.

During Temporal Stasis, stasis 1 happens when I'm on my 4th. Even if you tried to push another GCD (in this case Fracture) by Elusive Jumping to your spot, that would make your 4th drop. At least that's what happened when I tried to get extra damage while moving to my spot with Piercing Talon - even though the 4th is a "buff" that doesn't get affected by Stasis, using another non related skill breaks the combo, unlike MNK forms.

Stasis 2 happens when I'm on Phleb, and that's considering I Shatter back to the boss. The only way I'd find to fit another Fracture is by replacing Phleb, which is a straight up loss.

I don't necessarily advocate the use of Fracture, I'm simply clearing the misconception that it has no place in our kit. Wether you feel like you want that possible minute gain over Mantra or not is up to you. It can still be considered a viable option when you only have a single gcd to spare and can't get further into a combo. Still beats Impulse Drive and True Thrust.

I'd still contend that if you win a single healer GCD by taking Mantra it'd be better (e.g. one Broil, where I can do 1800 damage in questionable gear). It is difficult to use, of course; your healers have to think a step ahead, so you'd be having to think two steps ahead, plus 5% is really hard to notice (people who worked on That Other Game many years ago once determined that people need about 1/8 more performance to really notice differences), but if you really root out where the heals can benefit from a boost, you can probably find a gain just as esoteric but with more damage.

Anyway, as of 3.5 we don't lose that last-second 4th hit apparently. PRAISE THE SUN

With 2.39 gcd or fey wind, you shouldn't lose the 4th hit before 1st stasis.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/YAGQ Going off the 699/625 figures I came up with this by modifying another BiS I saw. I'm thinking you just tune up the crit/det once the weapon receives its final buff. Would this be as min/maxed as possible or no?

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/YAGQ Going off the 699/625 figures I came up with this by modifying another BiS I saw. I'm thinking you just tune up the crit/det once the weapon receives its final buff. Would this be as min/maxed as possible or no?

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http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/YAK6 is theoretically better (+145 crit and -140 det).

Cool, thanks. Will be fun seeing how well that performs once the weapon is finished.

I've noticed that with this patch's dragoon change, it is possible to do a 4th geirskogul in 1 BOTD. Problem is, you delay your BOTD refresh by about 10 seconds, so it is about 4 geirskoguls per 70 seconds. Another thing I've noticed is that you can't do 2 geirskoguls + B4B if you did 4 geirskoguls per 70 seconds. Is it worth doing 4 geirskoguls? You only have about 1 second to do a 4th attack, and that's if you are always attacking the boss. I did this small test with 2.39 GCD, or 634 skillspeed.

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Originally Posted by Kicero

I've noticed that with this patch's dragoon change, it is possible to do a 4th geirskogul in 1 BOTD. Problem is, you delay your BOTD refresh by about 10 seconds, so it is about 4 geirskoguls per 70 seconds. Another thing I've noticed is that you can't do 2 geirskoguls + B4B if you did 4 geirskoguls per 70 seconds. Is it worth doing 4 geirskoguls? You only have about 1 second to do a 4th attack, and that's if you are always attacking the boss. I did this small test with 2.39 GCD, or 634 skillspeed.

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Off the cuff, I think that landing extra Geirskoguls is the new meta now. Landing 4 Geirskoguls every 70 seconds (which I've previously described as 3.5 Geirskoguls per minute) gives us an extra 100 potency plus buffs every 60 seconds = 1.67 raw PPS. By contrast, landing an extra BFB-boosted Geirskogul every time we use BFB results in a bonus of 200 x 0.30 potency plus buffs every 80 seconds = 0.75 raw PPS. The extra GK output is significantly superior.

On top of this, I personally have found that using two Geirskoguls per Blood for Blood is extremely contextual, and can only be executed on occasion in a raid setting. Usually my Geirskogul choices have more to do with adds and phase transitions than they do with the dummy-based abstraction of 2-GKs-per-BFB. (The 3.5-GKs-per-minute thing is contextual, too, but I believe that it ought to be fairly feasible at certain points in every current endgame fight, maybe with the exception of A10S.)

In any case, I find that the timing of using 3.5 Geirskoguls per minute is pretty lenient and flexible in practice, especially at a Skill Speed of about 650. I'm enjoying the technique, and I'm subjectively finding that my dummy parses have improved a bit since I started using it. Furthermore, if things go south and I have to step away from my target, it's typically very easy to revert back to the usual approach of landing just 3 Geirskoguls per minute.

That said, shooting for 3.5 GKs per minute means that any unexpected downtime at about the 38-second mark of a Blood of the Dragon cycle (between your 3rd and 4th Geirskoguls) could cause you to lose BotD prematurely. Additionally, this approach completely rules out the use of a Strength Potion before Chaos Thrust in the opener, thus forcing us to employ a slightly weaker opener. Finally, I should mention that I'm a bit biased, since I've been theorizing about this idea since Heavensward launched, and suddenly--viola!--I wake up to find that it is extremely viable, even comfortable, with none of the TP consumption disadvantages I was anticipating.

Anyone have any thoughts? Criticisms? Modeling data?

P.S. - I'll be watching the thread for people's BiS recommendations and thoughts, and will update the main post if there is a consensus. I'm hoping that random Diadem gear doesn't wind up BiS again, but it probably will.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

things

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Originally Posted by Kicero

stuff

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Could you elaborate on this? How do I into 3.5 GKs? This is the first time I see it mentioned and I wouldn't know where to begin.

//EDIT: 2 minutes after posting I did indeed figure it out. Morning grogginess is evil.

Right, sorry. We didn't really explain ourselves very well. Here is an old video of mine illustrating what the technique of landing 3.5 Geirskoguls per minute looks like. We just don't need nearly as much Skill Speed to do it anymore, thanks to Patch 3.5's changes to buff timing--specifically, since BotD gains time the moment we *click* Fang and Claw or Wheeling Thrust, rather than the moment the animation of those attacks completes.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

On top of this, I personally have found that using two Geirskoguls per Blood for Blood is extremely contextual, and can only be executed on occasion in a raid setting.

Anyone have any thoughts? Criticisms? Modeling data?

P.S. - I'll be watching the thread for people's BiS recommendations and thoughts, and will update the main post if there is a consensus. I'm hoping that random Diadem gear doesn't wind up BiS again, but it probably will.

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I came to this very same conclusion in practice, and thought I was just bad. The times where BfB and BotD lined up for this seemed to be rare unless I specifically held off BfB just to do this. Wasn't sure if it was worth it and I was gonna look it up again

So I currently have BiS for when I get my 275 raid weapon. I was wondering is there a BiS for full crit/det relic at 270?

BiS with relic uses accu/crit, not crit/det. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Y9ET

Oh and I forgot to move few points of crit to sks to reach 625 (2.39 gcd), otherwise you end up with 20+ useless sks. When the relic reaches i275 you can move 3 points of accu into crit though.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Oh and I forgot to move few points of crit to sks to reach 625 (2.39 gcd), otherwise you end up with 20+ useless sks.

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Quick question since I'm planning to slowly make my relic as well, does that mean that having any more than 625 sks is completely useless if my GCD is 2.39s already?

Hm, I knew Geirskoguls were getting a funkier flow, but if I was getting 4 per activation it was by accident. It's rad!

But the reasons I never noticed, though, is because (bad news, everyone) I'm on break from raiding for a while. Want to raid SB, SB requirements are higher than my PC, can't afford to upgrade my PC without finances, can't get the finances without dropping raiding. Oh well. Not the ideal circumstances, but hopefully in the meantime I will finally put serious hours into writing that monograph I've been working on since 2.5.

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Originally Posted by Remus

So I currently have BiS for when I get my 275 raid weapon. I was wondering is there a BiS for full crit/det relic at 270?

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You just swap it in if it's crit/det. But the accuracy relic BiS is slightly better right now, about 3 more DPS in simulation (yes, even losing 1 WD! No, I have not lost my mind here; WD values have never been this high and goon secondary itemization hasn't had to face a dilemma like the alexandrian/scripture pants before).