M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

It was also beaten without melee dps on week 1. Does that mean melee are a usless role now?

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That's like saying "The tier was beaten without Reaper. Reaper is useless now."
There area seven other classes that can do what melee DPS do, but differently. Maybe it's not as efficient, but it sure is viable.
There shouldn't be other classes outside of Healer that can do healing just as good as a healer. That's the whole point of a healer. It's why they exist in the first place. Just like how Tanks are by far the most durable of all roles. They can't just make that irrelevant by giving an invuln, provoke, and shirk to a melee DPS, because otherwise why would you bother with a tank?

Most players aren't able to clear healerless, but the fact that it's possible without best in slot gear less than two weeks after the content launched just proves there's a problem.
Point me to the DPS-less run, or the Tank-less run.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If this is truly a 'fight design' problem, it's kind of a damning indictment of SE's direction that it keeps happening in all these different fights. More likely, is the thing that is the constant between each of these clears: The jobs themselves, and their design direction. As they say, 'if everywhere you go, you can smell sh#t, the first thing to do is check your shoes'

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Fortunately, the "if" part of that scenario isn't an issue. All we have here is what exists in practically every game that has ever existed, which is a select few highly skilled players able to accomplish things that 999 out of 1000 others won't be able to do. We don't say the original "Super Mario Bros.", one of the most famous games of all time, is horribly designed because a small group of people has managed to speedrun in it about 5 minutes. What it's really provided is hours upon hours of enjoyment for millions of people. Same deal here. When you can start grabbing random DF parties, throwing them into M4S (or any of the current tier Savage fights) without a healer, and seeing them reliably clear it, then there's a real issue. But what top-tier players who have been playing the game for a long time and have expert coordination are able to do is irrelevant other than to congratulate them on accomplishing something.

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How anyone can have any fun with the current 'mash one button for half your playtime' design of healers? I'll never know.

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Because most players aren't doing M4S with skilled groups. The typical player is doing normal content with random other typical players, who take a good deal of unnecessary damage, don't perform optimally to clear things fast or use mitigation in the right places, don't use self-sustain or the ability to heal others on certain non-healer classes, etc.. Some people also just like being the one to make other people's health bars go up, and have no issue with spamming a spell as filler in the interim. Step 1 is acknowledging that other people can fact enjoy things that you personally don't.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

It was also beaten without melee dps on week 1. Does that mean melee are a usless role now?

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BLM/Pictomancer (red jobs) doing as much damage as melees (red jobs) is okay, it's healthy actually.

Tanks (blue jobs) and DPS (red jobs) doing all the healing while still meeting the damage check so healers (green jobs) are sandbagging by existing (since you could be another DPS/Tank) is not okay.

Hope this helps!

Does it matter that PF doesn't do it regularly? The fact that the current hardest content in the game can even be done without one entire role is already indicative of really bad design.

If you played a Souls game and the hardest boss in the game can be glitched to fall off a cliff if you do a very specific movement pattern, is that not a problem that needs fixing? Does it matter if only a few people do it?

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Fortunately, the "if" part of that scenario isn't an issue. All we have here is what exists in practically every game that has ever existed, which is a select few highly skilled players able to accomplish things that 999 out of 1000 others won't be able to do. We don't say the original "Super Mario Bros.", one of the most famous games of all time, is horribly designed because a small group of people has managed to speedrun in it about 5 minutes. What it's really provided is hours upon hours of enjoyment for millions of people. Same deal here. When you can start grabbing random DF parties, throwing them into M4S (or any of the current tier Savage fights) without a healer, and seeing them reliably clear it, then there's a real issue. But what top-tier players who have been playing the game for a long time and have expert coordination are able to do is irrelevant other than to congratulate them on accomplishing something.



Because most players aren't doing M4S with skilled groups. The typical player is doing normal content with random other typical players, who take a good deal of unnecessary damage, don't perform optimally to clear things fast or use mitigation in the right places, don't use self-sustain or the ability to heal others on certain non-healer classes, etc.. Some people also just like being the one to make other people's health bars go up, and have no issue with spamming a spell as filler in the interim. Step 1 is acknowledging that other people can fact enjoy things that you personally don't.

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Okay what’s your excuse for EX1 and Ex2 being cleared as current content with random pick up groups of 8 tanks

Does that not fulfil your criteria of “random groups can do hard content without healers without even really trying”

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you played a Souls game and the hardest boss in the game can be glitched to fall off a cliff if you do a very specific movement pattern, is that not a problem that needs fixing? Does it matter if only a few people do it?

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Probably not? In fact a few bosses in Soul games can be beaten exactly like that. Bad example because in Soul the design is specifically made to encourage creative solutions to problem.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Probably not? In fact a few bosses in Soul games can be beaten exactly like that. Bad example because in Soul the design is specifically made to encourage creative solutions to problem.

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I think she means using the out of bounds jump skip on demon of hatred to make it fall of the cliff from sekiro which is 100% a bug they never fixed

This isn’t like dragon rider in dark souls 2 where you can actually bait him off the platform with a charge which is an actual strategy on the fight if you didn’t raise the platform

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Probably not? In fact a few bosses in Soul games can be beaten exactly like that. Bad example because in Soul the design is specifically made to encourage creative solutions to problem.

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I specifically used the word "glitch", as in something that shouldn't happen, like clearing the hardest content in a trinity game without using the trinity.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Probably not? In fact a few bosses in Soul games can be beaten exactly like that. Bad example because in Soul the design is specifically made to encourage creative solutions to problem.

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That exact exploit was in Elden Ring, with Fire Giant, and they fixed it.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Does it matter that PF doesn't do it regularly? The fact that the current hardest content in the game can even be done without one entire role is already indicative of really bad design.

If you played a Souls game and the hardest boss in the game can be glitched to fall off a cliff if you do a very specific movement pattern, is that not a problem that needs fixing? Does it matter if only a few people do it?

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It'd equivalent to someone telling you there's no burglary problem because they haven't personally seen it. Or saying the office elevator is fine because it has only killed 5 people in the last 3 months. There's still something structurally wrong with that elevator.

This is why IRL.we commonly regard this kind of thinking as anecdotal or ignorant, even if it is innocuous.