So, can we just ban damage meters already.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

uhm no. In optimized play oGCDs are ALWAYS used 1st and only for phases of high movement or wherever burst healing is needed you want to use rapture or solace.
Even tho Misery is strong, it's still a dps loss. (except some very specific padding situations you just mentioned)
In general oGCDs should be favoured over lily usage.

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Afflatus skills are meant to work like oGCD heals. Misery sets each afflatus to be equivalent to a 225 potency dps skill. Which means that using an afflatus skill is the same dps loss as using an oGCD skill. So from the get go no oGCDs aren't always used first since these two can be interchanged. Furthermore, if the WHM needs to use an oGCD in the first place, weaving it into afflatus means that they are being DPS neutral compared to clipping but they get an extra "free" heal to go along with it. Meaning that if you're going to use an ogcd like assize/tetra/asylum/etc.., you might as well carry the healing for that portion with an afflatus skill since there's literally no difference in DPS loss between using the former single heal or the later double heal.
Obviously double weaving into an afflatus skill is a dps gain over clipping. In every case..

Furthermore, the way misery works means that you can turn any DPS neutral scenario into a DPS gain one so long as you 1) hit more than one target, or 2) use misery under any raid buff, or even better during the buff window.

Because of all the above you will prioritize healing with afflatus over your partner's oGCDs the majority of the time. This is even more pronounced when talking about oGCDs that could otherwise be used on energy drain for example.

The caveat is that this only holds true if you use misery in the first place, so afflatus no longer retain their priority if you're nearing the end of the fight and won't get the misery to go along with it.

Afflatus skills would still be used in optimized play even if they didn't do anything other than feed the blood lily, so it's only natural they would be higher priority than other heals.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

Question for the healers above as this is the first time I've dug into my own information (I'm looking to make the leap into harder content soon and join practice groups).

I understand a WHM will likely out DPS me. How much more dps is considered "normal". How far behind is "too much"?

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It always depends on fights, your partner, your party, your gear etc.. Hard to compare two things with so many variables. The easiest answer here is for you to just dps as much as you're comfortable with and then compare your performance to other players on fflogs. From there just try to keep improving your play.

It doesn't matter if you start off grey or green so long as you put some effort into getting better from there you will eventually make it. The first milestone should be to score 50% + putting you in the better half of the player base. Then you can sort out what you want to do from there onward.

If you're concerned with people thinking you aren't DPSing, it's going to be subjective. I think, as SCH, anything under 2k dps will have people thinking you aren't really DPSing. Anything above 3k will just be a case of "is DPSing but needs to get more comfortable/optimize". In between is a blurry area.
The average DPS for SCH in savage is about 5K give or take a few hundred depending on the fight. Keep in mind that this average reflects the state of farming parses more than it does clearing parses (for the most part).

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Originally Posted by Pharone

I absolutely hate damage meters because it takes the fun out of playing the game. Instead of just playing the game and having fun, people are always fixated on the DPS and HPS.

Just play the game, and have fun already.

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This is my thinking. I'm actually all for damage meters in savage content and extreme content. Ya know, content where you absolutely have to know your job inside and out and if you mess up, it could mean a raid wipe. Any kind of high end content I think meters are helpful, and yes, you should call out someone for not doing enough damage when you're playing content like that.

My beef with damage meters is in normal content. Especially a random leveling dungeon you get in DF. That's where meters are used to grief, and you start seeing DPS do stupid stuff, like tunneling on boss fights, running ahead of the tank to YOLO pull packs of mobs and start AoEing wildly so that they can be #1 on the meter. And people getting kicked for crappy damage. In a normal dungeon.

New players are often intimidated and sometimes can get flamed for low damage even though they are just learning. Damage meters were seriously one of the primary reasons the WoW community was so terrible. Square Enix is right to ban them.

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Originally Posted by Lium

This is my thinking. I'm actually all for damage meters in savage content and extreme content. Ya know, content where you absolutely have to know your job inside and out and if you mess up, it could mean a raid wipe. Any kind of high end content I think meters are helpful, and yes, you should call out someone for not doing enough damage when you're playing content like that.

My beef with damage meters is in normal content. Especially a random leveling dungeon you get in DF. That's where meters are used to grief, and you start seeing DPS do stupid stuff, like tunneling on boss fights, running ahead of the tank to YOLO pull packs of mobs and start AoEing wildly so that they can be #1 on the meter. And people getting kicked for crappy damage. In a normal dungeon.

New players are often intimidated and sometimes can get flamed for low damage even though they are just learning. Damage meters were seriously one of the primary reasons the WoW community was so terrible. Square Enix is right to ban them.

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Decent players don't use damage meters in normal content.
You have to be a real special snowflake to hold someone accountable for "low dps" in a normal trial or dungeon.
You can clear those placed blind-folded and still kill everything without trouble.


Damage meters are important in Extreme trials to some extend, and savage raids.
Because there performance matters to simply beat the enrage mechanics of each encounter. You don't have infinite time to kill the boss.
So if you're not producing enough damage (even with everyone alive 100%) you are not going to kill it.
I'm by no means a pro when it comes to playing DPS, but I do try my best to not be a burden to my FC when we raid.
They have no obligation to take me along in savage content with my performance, especially since they already cleared it and pull deep purple to orange numbers.


But you know what?
I'm happy to share my crappy parses with them.
Cause they can point out what I'm doing wrong, and what I need to change.
And over the past weeks I've improved from a measly 7k DPS to a stable 9k DPS by simply listening to their input and practising it.

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Originally Posted by MPK

I don't parse myself, but I'm glad there are people out there that upload parses since I can use websites like xivanalysis that can analyze my logs and give me pointers on how to improve.

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That's an interesting one. Still pretty rough for WHM but interesting.

Don't really get the "weaving" thing it harps on about to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Im largely against parses due to the mentality they create. Tanks and healers judged on their DPS as opposed to how they play their main roles, while people complain dancer is a bad job because parsers dont show the impact that non-damage actions can contribute.

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When the jobs and the content in this game are designed in the way that healing and tanking aren't something that can be considered requiring effort in themselves (the incoming damage is scripted, both tanks and healers have super strong mitigation abilties, and healers are equipped with extremely strong instant heals), and at the same time the endgame content (Savage) cannot be beaten without significant tank and healer DPS contribution, it only makes sense that each party member, tanks and healers included, are judged based on the raid DPS contribution they are able to offer. In the case of tanks and healers, this of course also includes sufficient healing and damage mitigation to ensure everyone can stay alive and keep pushing as much DPS as possible. DPS is also the only element of the raid encounters which can be almost endlessly improved, long after learning to handle the mechanics and being able to beat the enrage timer.

FFlogs which is used alongside parsers is also now based on raid DPS contribution, which means that Dancer DPS numbers and ranks are based on their entire raid contribution, not only their personal DPS.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

That's an interesting one. Still pretty rough for WHM but interesting.

Don't really get the "weaving" thing it harps on about to be honest.

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Probably because you clipped your GCD and that's generally a dps loss. Clipping is pretty much unavoidable this tier for some classes (thanks SE) so yeah it's going to keep reminding us even if you're pretty optimized already.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Probably because you clipped your GCD and that's generally a dps loss. Clipping is pretty much unavoidable this tier for some classes (thanks SE) so yeah it's going to keep reminding us even if you're pretty optimized already.

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No, I mean the concept of clipping a GCD is pretty alien to me.
Are they referring to the animation delay that makes an "instant off GCD" spell not really "instant"?

And if so, are there ways to avoid it? (besides casting sth like assize in the window after a n instant GCD)

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Originally Posted by Granyala

No, I mean the concept of clipping a GCD is pretty alien to me.
Are they referring to the animation delay that makes an "instant off GCD" spell not really "instant"?

And if so, are there ways to avoid it? (besides casting sth like assize in the window after a n instant GCD)

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Yes. If you go Glare -> Instant -> Glare the animation delay of the Instant will delay your next Glare cast. It might be half a second, but doing that many times over an 8 minute fight adds up.

The main way to avoid it is weaving. You can weave with Dia, Swiftcast gcd's, Regen and Lily heals. You can't prevent having a fair bit of clipping as WhM but the more you reduce it the better. Try to take advantage of every weave opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

This thread has many posts discussing how parses can be good for self-improvement ... among numerous posts discussing how you can use parses to judge other people’s performance.

Im largely against parses due to the mentality they create. Tanks and healers judged on their DPS as opposed to how they play their main roles, while people complain dancer is a bad job because parsers dont show the impact that non-damage actions can contribute.

I generally find the negative outweighs the positive

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This is because in EX content & Savage content, healers & tanks both need to pull their weight and deal decent damage for their respective classes.

It is a tanks responsibility to swap, deal with mechanics, and mitigate damage as well as deal a fair amount of damage during EX/Savage content, and it's a healers responsibility to heal, deal with mechanics, and deal damage.