Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

I'm sure the percentages are equal but it sure feels like they aren't. Just anecdotally it seems the pants and gloves have the worst drop rate (and yet are the two required to help make up the lost accuracy on the weapon), and everything else Dragoon specific drops like gangbusters, and yet are generally the most useless/interchangeable pieces.

I've been doing Coil since about the second week of the game and I only got my pants a week ago and have yet to see the gloves.

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Been running since the beginning of November last year and I've only seen the pants and gauntlets drop once too yeah.

I guess I got really lucky, I got pants on my first ever coil run and the gloves on my second. Still haven't seen the headpiece, boots and a couple of accessories though.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

There is no meaningful disadvantage for melee on the extreme fights. The only arguable case is with Garuda re: WWs, and to be honest I don't even pay much attention to the mechanic. When I hop to the second add, I pop Keen Flurry and go to town. A 3.2k Wicked Wheel when I have 5k HP is not very relevant.

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Strongly disagree here, beat it with both PLD and DRG multiple times but this fight clearly favors ranged by a far amount.

Double wicked wheel has the chance to kill a i80 pld with rampart and sentinel up. In the tornado phase when you have to run across the tornados during the brown portion, you are telling me you can just stand there dpsing Suprana with both garuda/suprana in the small vicinity. Then when garuda jumps and you immediately have to get out of the way of that arrow dot move while also avoiding the spinys explosion in that tight of a space.

all avoided with range. horrible horrible fight but i deal with it ;p

*Shuffles up all your stacks of paper then staples them together*

Thread raid!!!

Monks rule!!!!1!!one!!

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Strongly disagree here, beat it with both PLD and DRG multiple times but this fight clearly favors ranged by a far amount.

Double wicked wheel has the chance to kill a i80 pld with rampart and sentinel up.

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I've never seen the double. From what I understand it occurs in the 20 seconds before Chirada is dead and we switch to Suparna. Sometimes when I look over at the start the MT is dancing, so I assume that's them dodging the rain/double WW combo and stuff.

The fight does favor ranged, but it favors them about as much as any fight in the game favors range (except Titan EX).

ADS2 is persistently more annoying to deal with (hell, Twintania Dreadknights are more annoying to deal with) than Garuda EX once you adjust to it.

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In the tornado phase when you have to run across the tornados during the brown portion, you are telling me you can just stand there dpsing Suprana with both garuda/suprana in the small vicinity.

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Yes. I just make sure to avoid slipstream/downburst which is predictable because it's facing the tank. So I don't stand where the tank is. I also pay attention to spiny transition so I don't stand where the tank runs towards the center to taunt the spiny.

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Then when garuda jumps and you immediately have to get out of the way of that arrow dot move while also avoiding the spinys explosion in that tight of a space.

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Actually one trick there I learned is that the cyclones basically deactivate at that point (or there is like a 99.9% chance that they are not 'exploding' when the transition happens). So, I just hit the spiny once as I run away towards the center even if the cyclone animation is up. Never get hit by the rain.

If you run 5 very good dps with 1 heal you can run into it if you jump to Suprana after finishing Chirada.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Yes. I just make sure to avoid slipstream/downburst which is predictable because it's facing the tank. So I don't stand where the tank is. I also pay attention to spiny transition so I don't stand where the tank runs towards the center to taunt the spiny.

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Downburst and Slipstream are very easy to avoid I agree, Wicked Wheel is impossible in that phase while doing any meaningful dps on Suprana/Garuda during tornados.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Actually one trick there I learned is that the cyclones basically deactivate at that point (or there is like a 99.9% chance that they are not 'exploding' when the transition happens). So, I just hit the spiny once as I run away towards the center even if the cyclone animation is up. Never get hit by the rain.

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This is the clincher for me, I just don't know when to predict Garudas Jump and we always kill the spiny almost instantly and I do not have enough time to avoid moving into a tornado/moving out of spiny explosion/moving out of feather/arrow rain (w/e its called).

You know you can run into the tornado and not take damage once garuda jumps and you have killed the spiny right? (Run into it and run out into the safety spiny circle)

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Double wicked wheel has the chance to kill a i80 pld with rampart and sentinel up. In the tornado phase...

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I've had success where as a DRG I grab Chirada, OT grabs Surpana and spiney, MT on Garuda. I head to the same clearing as the OT standing at maximum distance apart from each other. Keen Flurry lets me eat Chirada's downburst. So long as ranged give me a litle bit of time to build up threat (time spent to dot her, surprana, garuda), I can "tank" her just fine.

All dps will focus on her, then move to Surpana. Since she's right there with me, there's even less down time trying to navigate the tornadoes. The main tank doesn't have fear double WW this way either. I won't deny that an over zealous or proc lucky BLM can pull her off me and muck it up, though.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

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The jump is hard to predict, but the sisters' specials (Wicked Wheel and Downburst) are pretty easy as they normally occur shortly after Friction. In the first Phase, after Friction's animation is done I pop ToB + Vengeance and stagger Inner Beast a bit, this usually leaves me comfortably above 60-70% HP (higher with good mage shields). If your group uses a strat that has you pull Garuda and Chirada it's easy-ish to avoid Downburst by dancing around when the cross-hair pops up. It's a bit harder to handle during tornado phase sisters because Garuda's and the sisters' specials end up being staggered a lot; in this phase I've found it easier to stagger IB > ToB > Ven > Inf. + IB so that they overlap for a good portion of their buffed state.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

You know you can run into the tornado and not take damage once garuda jumps and you have killed the spiny right? (Run into it and run out into the safety spiny circle)

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Finding this out helped so much in phase transitioning, haha

edit: once Garuda jumps you can move immediately, if you have the spiny this gives you the chance to move it to a more central position before it pops.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

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That's why in "Gales Phase/razor plumes", we let the MT pull Garuda + Spiney and pull them north. The rest of the party stack up South West, and the OT will go South East. When the MT is at 2 stacks, the OT will then pull Spiney off the MT. Me, as the Dragoon, will just stay on Garuda. When she jumps, the AOE's are always South East of me, and I never get hit by them. I usually just run around West & throw a spear at the plume to kill it.


On the Sisters/Vortex phase, you should always make sure Spineshatter drive is saved. We get the OT to pull Suprana, and let the MT take Garuda and Chirada. The OT will take Suprana into one of the open corners of the Vortexes. As DRG, I just poke suprana until the winds spawn. Then I wait for Slipstream. Once I see slipsteam, I run to the other corner opposite, and avoid WW. Suprana should die one TTT after the WW, then you can Spineshatter drive to the MT with Chirada. You have 1 full rotation before the next Wicked Wheel. So when you see Fricton from Chirada, you do the same thing, and run to the other corner and avoid WW of Garuda.

^ This is Single WW method, easiest for any tank under i85.

Ahh some good info there guys, Thanks for the help. I'm going to try a few things out and maybe improvise..

I tried a new strategy today, in tornado phase, you will deal with zero wicked wheels.

Save LB for tornado phase, and LB Suparna every time immediately as she spawns. MT takes Suparna, OT takes Chirada. Melee go with OT to DPS Chirada. RDPS stay on Suparna (she should die faster since you LB'd her), then switch to Chirada.

Ees really nice.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Strongly disagree here, beat it with both PLD and DRG multiple times but this fight clearly favors ranged by a far amount.

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No, it all boils down to the strat you party relies on. There are multiple ways to ensure that melees don't have to deal with WW at all.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

In the tornado phase when you have to run across the tornados during the brown portion, you are telling me you can just stand there dpsing Suprana with both garuda/suprana in the small vicinity. Then when garuda jumps and you immediately have to get out of the way of that arrow dot move while also avoiding the spinys explosion in that tight of a space.

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This also is a result of playing a "ranged" strat with a melee DD. There are melee-friendly strats where the melees never have to run across the tornados and never to stand in the same pocket with more than 1 add (especially not next to Garuda). You also don't get to stand anywhere near where the Spiny explodes.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Downburst and Slipstream are very easy to avoid I agree, Wicked Wheel is impossible in that phase while doing any meaningful dps on Suprana/Garuda during tornados.

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As said you can DPS just fine without the need to watch for any WW at all.

I've mentioned this strat numerous times in several threads (incl. this thread if I'm not mistaken), but this is how my FC approaches Garuda EX in the sister/tornado phase:

- MT grabs Garuda and Suparna and pulls them North-West
- OT grabs Chirada AND the Spiny Plume and pulls both of them South-East to the "melee pocket" (no need to pick up the Spiny if it's aggroed on a melee though; just leave it on the melee in this case)
- Ranged don't DPS Chirada immediately, as the OT may need a few seconds to pull the Plume; there's no need to risk to jeopardize the OT's aggro on Chirada
- As soon as the OT has positioned Chirada and the plume, all DPS focus on Chirada
- Once she is dead, OT should provoke Suparna, so she comes to the melee corner (ranged can instantly DPS Suparna, as the OT will already have a threat lead on them, thanks to copying MT's emnity)
- If the OT or the melee (whomever the Spiny is aggroed on) is at 2 stacks, the TM just provokes the Spiny Plume and then prepares it to be somehwere around 10-20% HP, so it dies fast once Garuda jumps up (as no one except of the MT stand in his corner, no one has to deal with the Spiny's explosion)
- Kill Suparna in the melee corner, she'll be dead before a WW goes off in that corner
- When Suparna is dead, range can deal DPS to Garuda until she jumps, then immediately kill the Spiny

The only things your tanks have to watch for is:

- don't put up any DoTs on either Suparna or the Spiny Plume, as you'll want to make sure that 1 provoke on each target is enough to actually pull them over
- Don't use any AoE threat when Suparna or the Spiny are about to be provoked by the other tank
- MT will have to watch for (double) WW, but that's nothing an experienced tank can't handle

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

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This is our usual strategy, one thing not mentioned is melee dps should help OT split Chirada's Downburst. Tank can get hit for around 5000 damage with no CDs, but 1 dps splits to 2500 each, more so with 2 melee. This allows the healers to concentrate more on the MT eating 2x WW

I think there are multiple ways to do this depending on party composition, so long as group is on the same page it shouldn't matter too much.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

No, it all boils down to the strat you party relies on. There are multiple ways to ensure that melees don't have to deal with WW at all.
This also is a result of playing a "ranged" strat with a melee DD. There are melee-friendly strats where the melees never have to run across the tornados and never to stand in the same pocket with more than 1 add (especially not next to Garuda). You also don't get to stand anywhere near where the Spiny explodes.

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Yeh, you pretty much nailed it right here. I always run with range heavy groups so I've always been discriminated against hhaha (just kidding). But I basically need to work harder on some end game content because of my party makeup.

Tried out some of the hints people mentioned yesterday and farmed ruda for a bit yesterday, went around 7/9. Not a bad night ^^

So I know there has been a lot of work parsing on T5 trying to find an established and proven accuracy cap, with the current # being somewhere between 472 and 482 (after all buffs/food etc).

However, has anybody done any work on trying to figure out what the accuracy cap is without accounting for T5? I plan on making two gear sets and I'de love to lower my accuracy requirement as much as possible to increase my dps ever so slightly.

So I am interested what the general consensus is for the accuracy cap for DRG for ALL content (EX, T4 or below etc) other than T5.

Currently I aim for around 464 without the food buff, would like to know how low i can go ^^ thanks guys in advance

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

So I know there has been a lot of work parsing on T5 trying to find an established and proven accuracy cap, with the current # being somewhere between 472 and 482 (after all buffs/food etc).

However, has anybody done any work on trying to figure out what the accuracy cap is without accounting for T5? I plan on making two gear sets and I'de love to lower my accuracy requirement as much as possible to increase my dps ever so slightly.

So I am interested what the general consensus is for the accuracy cap for DRG for ALL content (EX, T4 or below etc) other than T5.

Currently I aim for around 464 without the food buff, would like to know how low i can go ^^ thanks guys in advance

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Several pages back I recall someone missing in ex ifrit with 455acc. If it wasn't ifrit it was one of the ex primals.

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Originally Posted by Crush3r07

Several pages back I recall someone missing in ex ifrit with 455acc. If it wasn't ifrit it was one of the ex primals.

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I heard hits while boss is invincible (Aerial Blast / Hellfire / Earthen Fury) count as misses on parses. Sure it wasn't just that?

I'm sorry but could someone explain to me why there are so many BiS listings with varying ranges of accuracy? I get that coil requires a bare minimum and that anything non-coil related doesn't need much accuracy, so why isn't there a universal "this is BiS T5 set" and "this is universal non-coil set"?

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Originally Posted by Karasumori

I'm sorry but could someone explain to me why there are so many BiS listings with varying ranges of accuracy? I get that coil requires a bare minimum and that anything non-coil related doesn't need much accuracy, so why isn't there a universal "this is BiS T5 set" and "this is universal non-coil set"?

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That is mainly because we still don't know what are the exacts accuracy's caps for Primals / T1-4 / T5. So you can't have a final BiS list for thoses.

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Originally Posted by Karasumori

I'm sorry but could someone explain to me why there are so many BiS listings with varying ranges of accuracy? I get that coil requires a bare minimum and that anything non-coil related doesn't need much accuracy, so why isn't there a universal "this is BiS T5 set" and "this is universal non-coil set"?

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What's the point in having a Universal BiS set, when you can min/max per boss, depending on the accuracy requirement needed? That's why there's multiple sets posted.

Anyway, no one still knows the true Accuracy for Turn 5, nor the Primals, just like Migosha has said. Once we've found a definitive cap for Turn 5, then we can have a "Turn 5 BiS" set. But that's just for Turn 5, and not the optimal set for Primals, or Turn 4, or Turn 2.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

What's the point in having a Universal BiS set, when you can min/max per boss, depending on the accuracy requirement needed? That's why there's multiple sets posted.

Anyway, no one still knows the true Accuracy for Turn 5, nor the Primals, just like Migosha has said. Once we've found a definitive cap for Turn 5, then we can have a "Turn 5 BiS" set. But that's just for Turn 5, and not the optimal set for Primals, or Turn 4, or Turn 2.

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What would you feel is a safe number for EX Primals + T1-T4?
462?
465?
473?

The EX Primals are generally regarded to have "no" accuracy requirements, or requirements so low it's hard to actually reach them. Probably 341 or 363 or something sub-400.

There are a few folks in the Monk thread who suggest that the accuracy varies depending on where you are attacking from based on a large amount of testing in their FC. E.g. rear = lower acc to cap than flank, which is lower than front. Sounds odd, but it would help explain why people generally find low acc ok, but we continue to see random misses into the 470 range on T5 -- particularly on "snakes" because players spend a large span of time attacking Asclepius from the front, usually. They are saying the rear acc for Coil is 435, flank is 458, and frontal is ~476 or something.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

The EX Primals are generally regarded to have "no" accuracy requirements, or requirements so low it's hard to actually reach them. Probably 341 or 363 or something sub-400.

There are a few folks in the Monk thread who suggest that the accuracy varies depending on where you are attacking from based on a large amount of testing in their FC. E.g. rear = lower acc to cap than flank, which is lower than front. Sounds odd, but it would help explain why people generally find low acc ok, but we continue to see random misses into the 470 range on T5 -- particularly on "snakes" because players spend a large span of time attacking Asclepius from the front, usually. They are saying the rear acc for Coil is 435, flank is 458, and frontal is ~476 or something.

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Well geez that doesn't confuse matters at all lol

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

The EX Primals are generally regarded to have "no" accuracy requirements, or requirements so low it's hard to actually reach them. Probably 341 or 363 or something sub-400.

There are a few folks in the Monk thread who suggest that the accuracy varies depending on where you are attacking from based on a large amount of testing in their FC. E.g. rear = lower acc to cap than flank, which is lower than front. Sounds odd, but it would help explain why people generally find low acc ok, but we continue to see random misses into the 470 range on T5 -- particularly on "snakes" because players spend a large span of time attacking Asclepius from the front, usually. They are saying the rear acc for Coil is 435, flank is 458, and frontal is ~476 or something.

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This would explain a lot if that is the case

It makes sense in the real world.. You can sneak up behind any schmuck and whack him on the head, even from the side, but from the front he has a better chance to dodge the attack. Also why tanks ACC requirement would be higher, since they are always attacking from the front. DRG can attack from the flank and rear and not suffer any loss, is MNK similar, in that there are no front-only attacks? Isn't the caster ACC cap around 436?

That would be logical if the accuracy needed is different for Front/Side/Back. In the very first guildhest the game tutorial you that you should always attack from back, it would make sense.
That would also explain why tanks target something like 480-500 ACC, while melee search around 470 and caster only 435. It's not that the caps are differents, they may be the same, but tanks are facing the target, melee are on flanks and magic is considered as always hiting from back I believe.
If all that is the case we will always have to consider the accuracy needed to hit from the side anyway.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

The EX Primals are generally regarded to have "no" accuracy requirements, or requirements so low it's hard to actually reach them. Probably 341 or 363 or something sub-400.

There are a few folks in the Monk thread who suggest that the accuracy varies depending on where you are attacking from based on a large amount of testing in their FC. E.g. rear = lower acc to cap than flank, which is lower than front. Sounds odd, but it would help explain why people generally find low acc ok, but we continue to see random misses into the 470 range on T5 -- particularly on "snakes" because players spend a large span of time attacking Asclepius from the front, usually. They are saying the rear acc for Coil is 435, flank is 458, and frontal is ~476 or something.

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this makes a lot of sense and while I can't prove it, agrees with what i've seen so far playing this game for months. AHh then the goal should be to try and gear for frontal acc cap.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

AHh then the goal should be to try and gear for frontal acc cap.

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You meant Side and not frontal I guess?

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Originally Posted by Migosha

You meant Side and not frontal I guess?

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Oh for some reason what I wanted to say got cut off.

I meant gear for flank for normal fights and front for fights where you do not have the choice/luxury to attack from flank or rear for a significant enough portion of the fight.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

this makes a lot of sense and while I can't prove it, agrees with what i've seen so far playing this game for months. AHh then the goal should be to try and gear for frontal acc cap.

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Actually as written above the best would be to gear for the flank accuracy cap. The misses people are recording on T5 in the +460 range would result from the few hits on the small snakes while you're in the divebomb hole (every miss I've seen from the parses has been on the small snakes) since it's the only time you're hitting from the front. This would also account for why some people see 0% misses at low accuracy (low-med 460's) over long parses because this is such a small part of T5 and it would take a lot of parsing to catch those few misses. However, the dps on those snakes doesn't really matter since you just have to get them to 50% and that isn't even close to difficult, a single miss in that phase won't be meaningful. You're better to up your dps for the rest of the fight where it matters than the few seconds of frontal dps on two small snakes that you don't need high dps on in the first place.

Yeah I was running with 460 last night on T5 and got a pretty decent number of misses (about 1-2 per pull), but they were on the wyverns at the start (which I AOE, so not surprised at frontal positions) and Asclepius. I'll probably just observe it for several weeks to see ...

I paid extra attention to ensure I stayed in rear arcs when Twintania casts fireballs or liquid hell spam.

This isn't definitive, scientific proof for end-game ACC cap considering the differences, but it's good enough for me to believe the ACC cap needed for each position is indeed different:

As level 45 WAR, with 340 ACC, fighting a level 50 training dummy

Fighting facing the front: 465 swings of auto attack. 427 hits, 38 misses.
Fighting facing the flank/side: 237 swings of auto attack. 232 hits, 5 misses.
Fighting facing the rear: 300 swings of auto attack. 300 hits, 0 misses.

Lots of variables could make a difference, like the fact I'm AAing only, the test isn't exactly the longest to be consistent with the statistics for sure, and it's just a level 50 training dummy, but it seems extremely likely there is in fact a different ACC requirement for each side. Also of note, my BRD friend came by, stripped naked so he only had 12 more ACC than me, and missed about 2% of his attacks to the front, but none from the rear.

I have an accuracy set for t5 (485) and a max damage set for extreme primals. I go as low as 445 on ex primals and do not miss. Just throwing that out there for safe spots.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

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I'll try a similar test later on tonight on a level 50 training Dummy, and also use abilities and post an ability breakdown.

I just did a very small sample size while waiting for my group to start up for Garuda Ex.

with 341 acc (natural accuracy)

Frontal - 300 swings, 285 hits. 95% connection rate
Side - 300 swings, 300 hits. 100% connection rate



Now obviously i cant test rear since it seems 341 acc is capped for flank so we would have to test on an actual boss just being tank and spanked.

Job: Warrior
Accuracy: 341
Enemy: Dummy lv. 50

Position: Front
Auto Attack Swings: 1000
Auto Attack Misses: 51
Heavy Swing Swings: 1000
Heavy Swing Misses: 51

Position: Side
Auto Attack Swings: 755
Auto Attack Misses: 0
Heavy Swing Swings: 583
Heavy Swing Misses: 0

lol. Is there any way to artificially lower your accuracy through foods or debuffs? Otherwise, I'll have to wait a day or two to level my PLD to 45...

I think 1000 swings is more than enough to prove this. I have images... But I'm on my final forum warning, lol.

I counted swings from from WD skills and Auto-Attacks, just to eliminate any differences in accuracy between Auto-Attack and WD Skills. As on the first parse, on the front, I missed exactly the same amount of times, I can therefore conclude that Auto-Attacks and WD do not have any differences in Accuracy.

Now, for the second one... I got rather tired and couldn't be bothered getting 1000 swings, considering the fact my Heavy Swings where nearly 200 swings behind... But the fact after 755 Auto-Attacks, and 583 Heavy Swings, I had 0 recorded misses... Yeah.

I may also level my Monk to 45 after my PLD, and do the same test again, to see if different jobs also affect accuracy requirements.

EDIT:

May I make a suggestion; If anyone is to post any "misses", could they post the Enemy/Boss, their Accuracy, Job, Total Hits, Total Misses as well as their position?

I want to make a spreadsheet compiling all of this info for us to publicly spread.

I did a smaller sample before CT spam.

Level 50 Warrior, 341 Accuracy, Level 50 Striking Dummy

Flank: 200/200 Auto Attacks
Front: 190/201 Auto Attacks

If we get data from multiple level ranges, it might be possible to see if the acc cap for flank/rear/front scales linearly. I'll put up some numbers when I can later today since I have a lvl 43 DRG and lvl 42 MNK I can use.

Thank you kokosho :) Could you try aim for around 500 hits? Just to make sure there isn't like a 99% accuracy from flank at X accuracy, for example.