Thanks for the correction. I have rage-colored glasses at Holy being nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
-
04-21-2022, 07:49 AMSemirhage
-
04-21-2022, 09:32 AMMintnHoneyQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I'll gladly think of it as a squashed rumor or foul hearsay, then. Thank you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
I supposed toning down the difficulty of the Ultimate is a much more reasonable concern anyway, although, with such a delay and such confidence in its ability to make us "suffer," I would hope that they would know to keep the difficulty high. -
04-21-2022, 10:00 AMAnotherPersonIf you wear those glasses, it will at least distract you long enough so you won't be able to see [Aero II] being 2 times more MP-efficient than [Dia]. Our level 46 skill is better than or level 72 skill...Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
And rather than have our single target damage skills directly improve, it just costs 100 more MP to do 30-40 more potency... It suddenly feels like a downgrade for the small amount of improvement.
Based on the trend of how all healer's damage skills are now getting 100 MP more expensive every 2-3 "upgrades", I expect White Mage's next skill upgrade get a 20-30 potency increase for another 100 MP by next expansion. -_-
I can see it now... Holy III increases in potency by 10 next expansion to 160, and by 8.0, we get Holy IV to do 170 potency for 500 MP to discourage healers from doing damage with their attack skill. They try to make healers heal more.
... But we will probably get another 10+ healing abilities to use for healing in another 2 expansions, which make no difference once you factor in tank survival because enemy damage is either too low or will instantly kill someone...
So future healer gameplay will then be press 'single attack skill' again and again or 'stand there and wait until MP recovers'.
Or meld piety to restore MP faster. -
04-21-2022, 10:10 AMShurrikhanThat's fair. I feel the same. It's just worth noting the context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
We can't rightly consider Holy's power today relative to ARR/HW without looking also at everyone else's relative changes in AoE burst strength over the same period (and, of course, the resource costs that were attached to those -- Holy, for instance, used to wreck our MP). -
04-21-2022, 11:32 AMSemirhageIt was doubly infuriating because I remember back in...Heavensward? Early Stormblood? Sometime around then. When Yoshi stated that he didn't like nerfing jobs. He wanted to buff underperforming jobs to make things more fun. Because nerfing things feels bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Anyway let's rip a quarter of WHM's toolkit out for the role system, and nerf Holy, and spread Proshell out to everyone, and nerf Holy again, and delete Aero 3, and nerf Holy again and...what's that? Can't remember what I was saying.
Hell, I wouldn't even object to Holy having a monstrous potency for a high MP cost again. It'd feel impactful and make a juicy target for Thin Air at least. Reducing Holy's MP cost and potency (among several other things) is yet another small contribution to the spammy, boring hellscape healers are in now. 11111111111111 for AOEs too! -
04-21-2022, 11:39 AMNizziNo worries, it will definitely be solo healed by every healer job at some point during EW, just like TEA was, and then the narrative will shift towards "healing is fine, this isn't something most people can do, healing is needed in all content because I just played a dungeon where sprouts couldnt stop dying and it was stressful, healing isn't increasingly irrelevant, stop complaining" as it always does when the state of healing is pointed out to people every time new high end content comes out and people show that it doesn't address the fundamental problems with this entire role as usual!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarchie
-
04-21-2022, 12:37 PMShurrikhanIf they can still remember when first they were hit by the nerf bat, you clearly haven't clubbed them hard enough. /nodQuote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
And the saddest thing is how much more entertainment value can be generated from even just two --JUST TWO-- more offensive abilities per healer. -
04-21-2022, 05:08 PMMagicalChaseLike honestly if you bring back aero 3 for whm and shadowflare for sch it'd be engaging enough I think. cleric stance as a buff instead of a stance too maybe, just yaknow....anythingQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
-
04-21-2022, 10:35 PMIDontPetLalasNo. Not 'anything'. not 'just slap on another 100 potency and rename the skill' or bring back a skill from 10 years ago and call it a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicalChase
that would still make the PVE skillset stale and boring compared to the recent PVP changes - although they weren't perfect each healer has its interesting identity with only around seven skills and is much more engaging. -
04-21-2022, 10:50 PMAnhra
What Healers need the most, is a proper identity like in PvP but on a larger scale and a proper identity for the Dpskit as well, not just the same Skills slapped on all Healers where the only difference is animation and name.
The possibilities on those are endless, even if you give AST for example, to play all Cards differently in both a utility AND a offensive way (and not just dps boost and potency juggling, i mean as different as they used to be during Stormblood and before) alone would make a huge difference in gameplay. -
04-21-2022, 11:33 PMShin96
Call me old-fashioned but oh man do I miss the old days when you had more buttons to press. Whenever I run a dungeon I don't feel like there's enough to do with my job. Yoshi P's statement regarding OP's point doesn't alleviate that issue.
Telling someone to do content perhaps 1% in this game do at best, isn't a solution long-term. I have alot of faith in this playerbase, I think the devs can experiment a bit more with jobs. They did it in PVP, etc.
Healers definitely need more than 1-2 buttons to press. I can only imagine of frustrating playing the game is. He should try playing a healer for a while to see what it's like. -
04-22-2022, 01:00 AMNizzi
I've considered making a thread about how the push towards solo content is bad for the healer role and shows that the role needs a redesign even though I'm perfectly fine with having trusts for players who don't want to engage with multiplayer content. Maybe it's my tired brain thinking that this is a good point of criticism, but I really can't see how a new player is supposed to find healing with bots for the entirety of the game to be fun.
I know that it's only 2.0 and ShB-EW dungeons/1 EW Trial you can do with trusts at the moment, but something I see people who defend current healers say is "just play with sprouts/new players, you'll have to heal a lot" but how are new players who want to heal but also play with the bots supposed to have fun? Especially as players get more healing actions that make healing easier to enable more DPSing.
I haven't tried any of the ARR trusts yet but if they're anything like the ShB/EW ones, the NPCs don't mess up often, so where's the fun a new player who wants to play healer is supposed to be having? Scholar gains new 0 DPS abilities after level 45 when it gets Energy Drain, I cannot imagine telling someone who is new to this game, working through 2.0 that this is all they get to do, and they have hundreds of hours of content to go through from 2.1 to 6.1 where they do NOTHING but press 1-2 buttons for a majority of their playtime with nothing added for them to do. The same two buttons they were pressing when they fight Garuda are the same two they'll be pressing when they're fighting the final boss of EW, with no variation. They'd probably think it was a really bad game! -
04-22-2022, 05:49 AMAarchie
I'll just drop this here and take my leave
https://youtu.be/sbWubxOTUWU -
04-22-2022, 07:54 AMNetherealGood video.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarchie
-
04-22-2022, 08:29 AMAnhraThe chairman is the Hero FFXIV needs, but does not deserve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarchie
-
04-22-2022, 09:48 AMASkellingtonThis man needs a medal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarchie
-
04-22-2022, 09:49 AMSemirhageGotta be the nitpicker I usually am. Enjoyed it up until I groaned. "Maybe WHM could keep the 1 button rotation for variety"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarchie
God. Please. No. Why. Don't go an entire video harping on how horrible and boring and migraine-inducing and wretched and embarrassing the 1 button unchanged since level 4 "rotation" is....and then conclude "but nah it's totally okay if WHM stays designed that way".
If it's embarrassing unacceptable design, it's embarrassing unacceptable design. Even on a job you don't play. -
04-22-2022, 10:52 AMAngeliouxReinlol sheesh! Yup the ever growing rage and boredom of healers is long past the point of applying sugar to our criticism. I have to say this situation has me practically begging for a new mmorpg to come in and give me a new home. No longer being passively disgusted at healer design, having a house with no hoops to go through and a craft system that can rival this game… that’s all I ask…but here I am still venting…still…wondering… what do we have to do to bash this into their heads D: !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarchie
This game is still one of the better ones but wow have they been pulling some questionable choices over the years… -
04-22-2022, 11:15 AMQooEr
was running the 24man earlier today and so little damage was going out that i just challenged my cohealer to see who can overheal the most by throwing out all our heals with people at full health without losing dps.
yoship was right. not because i agree with him, but in a cynical sort of realistic way. dragonsong ultimate cannot come out fast enough......... anyways i lost the bet. i guess keeping track of every single ogcd ast has is a bit more entertaining than playing normally? -
04-22-2022, 11:38 AMIedarus
What if we all protested by unsubbing and playing FF11?
-
04-22-2022, 12:03 PMNetherealI would rather unsub and not give money to the same company/franchise that makes this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iedarus
-
04-22-2022, 12:28 PMIedarusThat works too. Figured it would get the point across quicker if they realize that a game like ff11 is what the playerbase wants, especially if it gets to the point where more people are playing that than the game SE is currently working on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethereal
-
04-22-2022, 01:21 PMBrokentoothMarchI have been brutally tempted. PUP and BLU look fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iedarus
-
04-22-2022, 09:40 PMRecon1o6Minus points for saying Whm should keep it. Absolutely not, I want my aero 3 back at minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarchie
1 dot, 1 nuke is unacceptable for any job
other than that, decent vid
----------------------------------
Video aside. 143 pages after I was told to go play ultimate. I unsubbed after yoshida said that. I don't really have anything to say at this point thats not already been said save one thing
I have asked questions to developers of other games before that have been answered, but none so dismissively as this was. Yoshida is out of touch at best and arrogant at worst. The long term decline in this game started in late HW when the devs stopped interacting with the playerbase so much and started dumbing down everything and/or reducing elements in play
You learnt not to overheal because you got dogpiled from excess aggro. You learnt how to dps as a healer because the game required and rewarded it. -
04-22-2022, 10:20 PMShin96
I'd actually like to know the reason why they think 1-1-1-1 is because anything more would constitute button bloat. Do these developers enjoy pissing off their players this much? I'd suggest taking your money elsewhere if this is not adressed next expansion.
-
04-22-2022, 10:33 PMBrokentoothMarchHonestly:. I will. Call it bluff, but I'm getting weary at the devs increasingly flippant attitude. I never developed this weird attachment to Yoshi like many others have, but even I agree there was a time I wouldn't dream of him telling a chunk of the community to screw off, to ignore housing to this flagrant degree, and to essentially laugh at the players/his own poor work while presenting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin96
This is a clear decay and its irrefutable. I've alrrady been playing GW2 on my off time and if this keeps going, it's likely to become my main. At least when they say it's okay to play other games, they mean it.
Also Hrothgar's work -
04-22-2022, 10:35 PMASkellingtonPoint me in the direction of a good MMORPG with great healing and I'll be gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin96
-
04-22-2022, 10:40 PMBrokentoothMarchAgain, I'll shill GW2. Hell, there's even a tank/healer hybrid where you juggle mitigation and healing or another that has you focus on healing and, when there's no healing, plenty of buff manipulations because the devs aren't as allergic to status effects as these are.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Admittedly, healers are more 'support' and labeled as such rather than pure healers, so still not friendly to those who think it should go the way of sylphies.
WoW is... I'm cautiously optimistic. When the purchase by MSoft goes through, it might get better? The company has expressed interest in purging much of the studio and replace it to clean it of it's previous issues. Rumors of a firing list is even circulating. So maybe that down the road? -
04-22-2022, 10:46 PMShin96Same here. Also looking at the moment, 6.1 was a nice breath of fresh air but how they like to disregard us.. at this point I'm paying for the privilege of having my job ruined because of bad choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
-
04-22-2022, 11:42 PMBingleNingleI believe the video picks on white mage because we've always picked on white mage. And it's likely to add to the mean-spirited chuckle because that seems to be his gimmick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
But let's consider the why of what he said. I believe the why is that the game has a wide variety of player levels and interests and having an "easy" healer is good for players that want a fairly reliable experience in content they're comfortable with. Realistically, white mage is a great choice for that. It's got the brand recognition that comes with FF and a reputation for being The Healer. I know it's hard to understand but some people feel like they're adequately challenged and enjoy the pace and they don't WANT more. In order to cater to a wide base you do need one version of each role that has a low barrier of entry and maintains a casual level of engagement. I would still argue that we could still have an improved base system with something to at least master or options to exceed that aren't necessary to succeed, but any more than that and I'd just be describing a whole rebuild of healer from the ground up (which I know most people here want, but i think that ship has sailed.)
As someone who prefers to play SCH or AST, if they decided to make one of them the simple one, I'd take the lump and figure out which I actually like playing. But we can't pretend that there isn't a need for an "easy" healer.
That stated, it would still be bad to leave WHM, whether we consider it entry-level healing or not, as-is because the fundamental problem is that occasional ogcd heal and ruin ruin ruin is not engaging in the slightest, and it leaves WHM without an identity (unless we consider Glare Mage an identity, which i don't.)
The problem overall is that there's an idea that every single healer needs to be equally accessible, which simply isn't true. The fact is we're a limiting role that needs some draw in order to keep people filling out parties, so if anything we should be making each even MORE distinct. Otherwise why would more than one type of person ever choose to heal? Limiting a role that is integral to the fights to one type of gameplay is bad for queue times on top of being bland and uninteresting to a wide swath of people you could be encouraging to heal. Maybe White Mage should be an entry-level healer for people who are not sure about healing, but it shouldn't be hobbled by that identity.
(There needs to be an unintimidating tank and dps as well, but that's not really a problem right now considering Summoner is mashing whatever button is highlighted on their hotbar and getting top dps, and Warrior needs no one. You'd think it'd be Paladin, but as ever they're just treated as warrior with softened edges.)
TL;DR I think largely the video does a good job of describing the problem and the rest is for comic effect. sorry for the essay -
04-22-2022, 11:53 PMASkellingtonGW2 I've tried and... while I do like it I also don't and have issues with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokentoothMarch
I'll think about giving it a try again, but I really hate that they refuse to support the playstyle I want to go for.
And frankly from what I've seen, its PvP is better than its PvE.
WoW... nah. They've burned that bridge when they gutted my Shamrock. I miss my totems and water shield too much to come back. Thanks for the suggestions though! I'll keep on the lookout. -
04-23-2022, 12:07 AMSemirhageI completely understand this position, and I know that's likely where the role would head if healers went in a good direction. I think it's total bullshit that WHM should be sacrificed on the Sylphie altar of bad, boring gameplay because Won't Somebody Think Of The People Who Refuse To Ever Improve, but I know that's where it's always gonna stay.Quote:
Originally Posted by BingleNingle
I've just also always taken umbrage at these two opinions when stated together, because it's nakedly hypocritical. If you're going to complain that current healer design is boring and insulting, and then turn around and say "oh but WHM should be left in the state I just spent the last twenty minutes bitching was boring and insulting", well. Awesome. So boring and awful WHM is how things *should* be then, I suppose.
I also object to this because this state of affairs is exactly where we were before all this bullshit started. WHM was the boring crap baby healer with zero complexity, and the other two were overpowered good-at-everything monsters clowning all over it in strength (if not popularity). Unfortunately, Square seems to think they can have their cake and eat it too- they want healers accessible and power-balanced, and that need to power balance them is going to bite the role in the butt if you have a designated paste-eater healer. In that case, you're either going to get the jobs power-balanced, in which case the "smart" jobs are going to piss and whine and kick and scream that they "deserve" to be stronger because they're better, or you're going to end up with WHM both garbage to play and with garbage output. And Square will see that, and perhaps think it's time to lobotomize the other healers yet again... I think the role needs a redesign, whether Square is too lazy to do it or not. The healers are going to suck until it does.
TL;DR I think giving all four healers good design with a high skill ceiling should be possible, and wanting to dumpstercan WHM so the other three can rise to their glory days again is a common opinion I oppose utterly. No, the Sylphies don't "need" a Glaremage. They weren't doing any damage anyway.
I like WHM's aesthetic, and I'm allowed to like it. It started with some promise in ARR and, despite some design choices I thought were BS, continued that into Heavensward. It's been constantly nerfed, lobotomized, and spat on ever since then. It's my baby, and I'm so, so tired of hearing the community think leaving it behind in the crap pile is a good idea as some sort of compromise for making the other three fun again. -
04-23-2022, 12:16 AMQooErthis is pretty much what i think it boils down to. white mage CAN be simple... on the HEALING side, which is what ultimately matters for actual accessibility for clearing content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
not to mention, glare spam might be "accessible", but by lowering the bar that much then every single other job in the game would be mount everest in comparison. is SMN linear algebra? is PLD multivariable calculus? is SAM set theory? is BLM quantum physics? like... what? all of these jobs are accessible. theres a difference between accessible for humans and accessible for pecking bird toys. -
04-23-2022, 12:27 AMKurohNekoHealing in FF14 is quite broken. "We don't want pure healers like other MMO's for healers to do DPS" ok what are the DPS options? "Mash two buttons again and again." "More DPS buttons? You're a healer." Ok what are the healing options? "Bunch of buttons but pretty pointless when every class can pretty much heal itself."Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
Basically healers are worthless outside of savage and ultimate. -
04-23-2022, 01:02 AMRilifanePeople fail to realize that a healer is made of both the healing side and the dps side and the complexity of the dps side doesn't affect the accesibility of the healing side. But I constantly hear that WHM should be simple on the dps side from the same people that say healers should only focus on healing and keep everyone at full HP. It just makes no sense. They prefer to use Cure I over Glare, what does it matter for them if the dps kit is more engaging?Quote:
Originally Posted by QooEr
Having one healer that is more straightforward on the healing side and doesn't dip too deep into delayed heals, layering mitigation and requiring to plan ahead is nice. It doesn't even have to be WHM but it would work well with the theoretic class fantasy of being a powerhouse. Strong, impactful skills, quality over quantity, straightforward raw and bursty healing. A kit that isn't bloated with the same skill on a myriad of different cooldowns and some small flavour added here and there. Healing is and never will be the core part of healer gameplay but the kits can at least reflect the corresponding class fantasy.
And with the dps kit they should just go wild on all healers, no exceptions. -
04-23-2022, 01:04 AMBingleNingle
I don't think I said one has to be a dumpstercan, I said we can't pretend there aren't players who are currently challenged or don't want more and that it's a devs job to balance that out with something that's still challenging for those who choose it, along with other jobs that are less straightforward.
If you're opposed to having something for people who aren't or don't desire to be at your level then you are exactly the complaining elitist people are raving about, midcore or not. It isn't just a game for us, and the problem now is that it isn't really a game for us even though it easily could be without gatekeeping across the board one way or another.
And honestly I think the most immediate problem is tanks. One of them does our job for us and the other just got the ability to do much the same. That's a design problem. Yes our gameplay is still boring with that fixed, but I don't think "casuals" are our enemy and we spend too much time being angry at some notion that things aren't challenging enough and end up conflating two separate, albeit connected problems.
Also can we stop implying people who don't want to do what we want to do are somehow deficient? I know these forums are only here for us to insult each other but it detracts from our argument and I don't really like belittling people I'm playing a game with unless they actively hurt me. -
04-23-2022, 01:29 AMSeverianLyonesseI think there's room for a middle ground between what Chair suggested and what you guys want for WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Make WHM a "one-button combo" mage, just give it *multiple* one-button nukes. Add Quake and Tornado, maybe Flood. And maybe have a system that encourages using them in phases like BLM.
As you have said before, WHM can still be a simple job while not being totally bereft of engagement and strategy. It doesn't need fancy combos to accomplish that and imo would feel best just being an unsubtle bombardier like BLM is. -
04-23-2022, 01:32 AMKatori96Would not mind a system where if u use a heal ur next DPS spell gets a potency increase for WHM tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
-
04-23-2022, 03:35 AMSemirhageYou didn't, but that's not something I was directing at you. Most of my post wasn't directed at you, but at the corpus of opinions I see all too often around WHM. You stick around WHM arguments for a while, and you start to get this...pattern. Yes, yes, WHM should be improved. But not like...*improved* improved. Slow down there, it can't be actually good or anything. Better, but be really careful; hit the brakes! We can't expect Square to make it actually fun or anything, just...a little better maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by BingleNingle
It nearly always comes alongside a dissertation on why 1111111111111 is horrible, insulting game design, unworthy of being called gameplay at all. It's boring. It's awful. Nobody would want to play that way. And then as part of the dissertation's closing argument, there's always "anyway, here's why this design paradigm I just spent a ton of energy raging about is PERFECT for keeping on [a healer I don't play or care about]".
I'm the evil gatekeeper healer who's sick of the jobs getting dumbed down. There hasn't -been- any meeting halfway. Things get simplified, made even more impossible to fail. And we still have threads on the front page complaining that this game's story content is too hard. Seems like even though we've hit rock bottom with simplification, it's still too hard. I've been calling for raising the skill ceiling. I've even conceded long ago that Square doesn't want to increase healing requirements. Fine. Then give us downtime activities that are commensurate with a human level of brainpower, instead of 121111111111111111. But we can't even do that. Not because the people complaining about it can't do it, but because Square seems to think that its mere existence would be too scary. I'm pretty comfortable belittling people whose opinions have contributed to ruining my fun. WHM has been destroyed to appeal to people who didn't want to play it in the first place. I don't begrudge them that if they didn't ask for it, but I'm going to be direct with anyone who argues for keeping it in its ridiculous present state. -
04-23-2022, 03:40 AMSilver-StriderThere was a suggestion to give Regen/Medica 2 a Thundercloud-esque proc for Dia. I still think it's a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katori96