Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

I've started leveling SMN from 80 to 90 now and I have to say I agree with most people's assessment. It is dumbed down. Correct me if I made any mistakes but from what I can tell we lost a lot of stuff.

Aetherflow went from 4 per minute to 2 per minute.
Ruin proc from 4 per minute to 1 per minute.
Egi Assault and Egi Assault 2 were cast for a total of 8 times per minute. They were replaced by 3 summons per minute.
Enkindle Bahamut and Enkindle Phoenix were both changed from 2 uses per minute to 1 per minute.
Lost the 2-button combo during Phoenix trance, now it's just 1 button (same as Ruin spam).
Earthen Armor was 120% of your HP per minute, Radiant Aegis is 30% per minute. Not great for soloing.
Gemshine is a filler spell just like Ruin so it doesn't feel like a new ability. It's a recolor.

And that's without even mentioning DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I've started leveling SMN from 80 to 90 now and I have to say I agree with most people's assessment. It is dumbed down. Correct me if I made any mistakes but from what I can tell we lost a lot of stuff.

Aetherflow went from 4 per minute to 2 per minute.
Ruin proc from 4 per minute to 1 per minute.
Egi Assault and Egi Assault were cast for a total of 8 times per minute. They were replaced by 3 summons per minute.
Enkindle Bahamut and Enkindle Phoenix were both changed from 2 uses per minute to 1 per minute.
Lost the 2-button combo during Phoenix trance, now it's just 1 button (same as Ruin spam).
Earthen Armor was 120% of your HP per minute, Radiant Aegis is 30% per minute. Not great for soloing.
Gemshine is a filler spell just like Ruin so it doesn't feel like a new ability. It's a recolor.

And that's without even mentioning DoTs.

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Pretty accurate, though the fewer demi enkindles doesn't have a large impact on decision making (and especially wouldn't with Bahamut being all instants). A nice point about the new shield is you don't lose dps when using it. This was a good opportunity to rework Aetherflow (maybe revisiting the good points of Aethertrail) instead of making it more vestigial than before. Being fair, Astral Flow for the primals can be compared to Egi Enkindle and in that sense has gone way up in frequency. Not that it's enough to cover the glaring holes in SMN's design.

I was willing to leave SE the benefit of the doubt in Media Tour times, but having levelled up the job (which is my first job in FFXIV and has been my main since 2016), I must say I agree with this topic.

While Summoner had multiple identity crisis with each expansion piling on new stuff with little to no coherence (Demi-Trance upon Demi summon upon Trance upon whatever was ARR SMN), for me it had its list of micro-managements which made the job and I was fine with that.
The 6.0 SMN is nothing of that, it is a rigid cycle of pushing a sequence of 3 to 5 buttons and that's about it. I won't talk about optimization itself as I am not maining the job currently, but the identity and the flow of the job is just too boring for me.
So yes, we gained class flavour and it feels more like a Summoner, but what we traded off for that doesn't compare to what we are left with and that's a shame in my opinion.
I'm not bringing anything more to the topic after 36 pages I guess, but here's my two cents and hoping for a fix somehow (but I don't expect that before 7.0 now).

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

You keep bringing up the whole "poison" and DoT thing, but from my understanding, folks are just wanting more - or simply different - than we got. This doesn't mean to go strictly back to what it formerly was. SMN as is currently is, is so simple and boring compared to what it used to be - and seeing the 3 summons being summoned over...and over...and over again makes my brain hurt and is way too repetitive.

You say 'I dont think it's a healthy or effective method to get what you want though' - are you sure? Like, I don't even understand why that was said. What is unhealthy about asking or simply just venting frustrations over the new SMN and for good reason? I mean, there has to be a reason there's multiple threads over the subject.

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I'm sure in their minds calling out the blatantly bad faith gate-keeping about what is and isn't the "real FF summoner" sounds like a vehement demand for more dot based gameplay, when really it's just the argument itself that's so ridiculous even people who don't care one way or the other will still point it out.

I remember when ShB was released and there were lots of problems with SMN. Things like the doubleweaving of pet actions and their responsiveness and Bahamut/Phoenix not triggering their skills during the summon process (solved for Bahamut but not for Phoenix).
Some discussions took place here in the english forum at that time and suggestions to make SMN better were made. For instance, the possibility of merging DWT with Summon Bahamut, having "free" Ruin IV's during Bahamut phase (to ease the problems with doubleweaving pet actions and they not executing leading to less stacks of Ruin IV) and making summons stay put where they were summoned. In the end, they changed pet actions to GCD and it solved quite a lot of problems actually.
However, we can see that those previous suggestions were, more or less, implemented now (guess similar discussions happened in other forums too), but these changes also ultimately changed how SMN works mechanically and, the way I see it, were not addressed properly. We have now a job that is aesthetically good but at the same time bland with no inherent mechanics.

- Aetherflow/Fester is a completely disjoint part of the kit now that the DoTs are gone. (Before we at least had the link Summon Phoenix/DWT > Tri-disaster reset > DoT Refresh > Aetherflow > buffed Fester by DoTs)

- Titan/Ifrit/Garuda still plays as filler phase with the same weight as casting Ruin III/Pet actions in the 5.x SMN, but less meaningful. They are not required for any of the burst phases, they contribute nothing to them.

- They made Bahamut and Phoenix become like a DoT with their skill being automatic. (Making them just stay in place when summoned would solve the problem of them trying to follow us and cancelling attacks, imo.)
Would like to see Summon Bahamut/Phoenix also trigger Ahk Morn/Revelation on spot, now that they are GCD. But that's just a personal wish.

- Pet is still a thing with only two abilites linked to it. (It's past time to remove pets completely as a source of abilities, if it's going to be like this. Give those abilites to the SMNs themselves and make Carbunble just a glamour effect that can be turned on and off if the player desires. I don't know, maybe you open the book it spawns, changes colors depending on the attunement phase and do some animations when you "cast" spells. Purely comestic.)


The thing is that SMN needs adjusments, needs more oGCDs (to keep us more active) and need actual job mechanics.

I don't have anything much to add since I use SCH more than SMN, but I will say that the job doesn't even feel like a caster now that half of the skills are instant cast.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

If there’s still going to be a continued discussion in this thread, can certain people please stop saying that somebody’s subjective gameplay preferences are wrong or that someone has to be trolling solely because the somebody in question happens to prefer the newer job design to the older job design? It’s pretty rude, and I doubt that Square Enix is as likely to take the contents of this thread seriously when it contains what some could see as the appearance of continued harassment.

Preferring the newer job design doesn’t automatically mean that there still aren’t rooms for improvement as well either; I’d like to see Ruin IV considered as being changed into an ability so that it can be weaved with other spells for instance, as one friendly proposal of the top of my head. The current job isn’t perfect even if I do personally (subjectively) prefer it to its previous form.

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Sharing this again because it’s still relevant to this thread. There have been multiple people in said thread who personally prefer the newer job design yet have been criticized for simply explaining a subjective preference or describing spell differences, with them sometimes being called trolls, having their past experience with the job called into question, or being insulted in other ways. Many game discussions often involve multiple perspectives, and that’s fine as long as there are no appearances of harassment.

Some popular content creators like Larryzaur have also stated that (and went on to explain why) they prefer the newer summoner design to the older design; is Larryzaur also wrong?

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

As someone who prefers the newer job design to the older job design, I also previously noted in this thread multiple areas where each of the newer spells technically differed, but I also mentioned other improvements that I would like to see; I’m not opposed to newer updates.

One of those things was that I felt that the level 86 elemental trait (that introduces what I feel are the most significant factors in terms of deciding elemental usage order) should be swapped around with some lower-level trait, since I’m not personally a fan of limiting those major spells and abilities to the newest content.

Another thing is that being able to cast the attack buff when you’re not in the middle of battle should be a thing again, since you can’t currently have it prepared right before a raid boss is initially pulled.

All that said, I think it’s totally fine if other people on these forums have other suggestions or even major dislikes too as long as they’re shared respectfully.

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Sharing this again as well so that people again see that I’m not against the job getting further updates, also including some personal preferences; I don’t want that to be ignored.

But yeah, certain posts being rude isn’t going to help forum feedback be taken more seriously; it’ll more likely just be ignored then.

I will say this, I hated old SMNs design. I could not grasp it at all and it made the class almost completely inaccessible to me.

But that wasn't an issue with the job, it was an issue with the player.

So, I picked up Red Mage and still main it now even after finally being able to play SMN with it's new design.

Because SMN is now so simple that after the shiny new toy feeling wore off I got bored and went back to RDM.

So was it worth it? To many sure, but honestly if they hadn't have redone SMN I would have landed in the same situation I am in right now.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

Some popular content creators like Larryzaur have also stated that (and went on to explain why) they prefer the newer summoner design to the older design; is Larryzaur also wrong?

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Can Larry have an opinion, yes he can. Can Larry also be wrong, yes he can. Being a content creator doesn't mean you give them a free pass when you feel they are wrong about something. Larry has made a gushing video about summoner with every patch. He loves the identity of Summoner. Honestly, I have no idea how he truly feels about 6.0 summoner because I don't know if he posts on the main boards or not. Maybe it's better if he does post with an alt so people can have an honest debate without letting youtube stardom get in the way.

These are the forums; we discuss and debate until we find common ground a mutual path forward. I've had many debates with lead Summoners on these boards and have seen many good ideas come from it over the years.

After reading a lot of the feedback from the forums, the general consensus is that while main like the new changes some feel it is lacking in mechanics and over all depth. Others feel it took too much away from the previous version of the job when it didn't really need too. We feel that though the job changes have merit they didn't address some problems 5.0 had and created new one.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

But yeah, certain posts being rude isn’t going to help forum feedback be taken more seriously; it’ll more likely just be ignored then.

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This ignores the fact that at least one specific participant in this thread has been "I like the new updates, and YOU PEOPLE without READING COMPREHENSION should just GET OVER IT." If they bring smoke despite not liking it when it gets thrown back in their face, maybe they ought to frame their arguments from that angle instead of being a disingenuous stain about it, crowing about how they got what they want and other players who have countered their statements in every thread they word-vomit into with reasonable and detailed arguments can just "suck it up", or that those people should "stop whining" while also shrieking about how if anything changes to current SMN they'll drop the job immediately.

People have been offering polite feedback on these forums for years and the vast majority of it has been roundly ignored. Frustration should be expected, and it's not made better when some smug jackass crashes into every discussion with a self-declared goal to be the "voice of opposition" in any thread criticizing the new direction of the job.