Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Who said anything about single target And I also said necessarily not absolutely. As in there are times where they are a detriment. I’ve been groups where the pulls went flawlessly yay for us nice smooth run. I’ve been in groups where there they took longer to kill for whatever reason and small pulls should have been the way to go. So large pulls are not necessarily faster. Also you are not getting more damage from spells in large pulls. The potencies remain the same. What you are getting is the killing of more mobs in one go that could save a bit time as you are stopping less meaning being more efficient. Which in turn could lead to a faster run time assuming the kill rate is fast enough. Which usually happens with the level of gear we have the moment but doesn’t always. There are more variables to consider then large pulls only go!

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You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

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IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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I have never had an instance where slapping 3 regens on a tank in a dungeon wasn't enough to have me not even need to heal them.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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I mean what you say can be said the same of single pulling. Like, bad players will be bad in large groups or small groups so that's a silly argument. IF players can use aoe in a general sense, it'll be more damage to have large groups, doesn't even matter if they're hitting all the mobs or not as long as they're hitting MORE than the single group. Of course tanks have to use cooldowns and healers have to heal, that's part of playing the game. If anything tanking is easier in a large group aoe situation because it just becomes using your aoe skills instead of cycling through and single targetting. Healing is mind dead easy no matter what you're doing, and in a large group situation the ogcd damage you have does more damage per use.

Edit: also literally every job has good aoe these days. Not sure why you keep focusing on that point. We aren't talking about leveling dungeons here.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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That's a lot of IFs but none of these are super hard to accomplish.

-Mobs grouped well? Most of the cases they are. VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS REALLY, like the 2 worms at the end of The Burn, they are annoying. If you know on which mob you could apply your AoE, you'll target most if not all of them.

-DPS paying attention? Few instances where certain DPS have linear or conal AoE can be an issue, but even so, there's a gain even if you miss few of them. Refer to "IF" number 3.

-If the DPS have good AoE? ALL DPS have decent AoE. Except for SMN (tri-disaster outside of dreadwyrm trance), most of them have 100 to 110 potency AoE attacks, which on 3+ targets, it adds up considerably. Imagine having 440 potency per GCD and that's only hitting 4 targets. That's a lot of a damage compared to your usual rotation.

-If there aren't many ground effects? Few instances as well, we can mention the exceptions, but it doesn't mean all the cases are like that. Even so, both melees and ranged are quite mobile, they can dodge as they AoE. Ranged magical DPS are somewhat safer or have fast casts/DoTs that would make up for it.

-If tank stuff? I don't think there's any complexity here. 1 button for a cooldown, 1 button for... an AoE rotation? Overpower, Flash or Decimate/Steel Cyclone, DA abbysal drain/salted earth spam barely require a strict rotation. Cooldowns are used from the biggest to the smallest. It's not rocket science.

-If healer stuff? Playing healer myself, healing is braindead in dungeons. SCH? Blow your fairie's regen, tether them and put excog on them: Go ham. WHM? Slap regens on them: Go ham. AST? Regens or shields: Go ham. They also have offgcds to use in between their DPS spam and "oh sh-" heals.

You are making it sound like the planets must be aligned for that to happen, which it's completely untrue. Most of them require the bare minimum knowledge of your job to pull it off.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

According to people like Moshimo, players who are good are supposed to carry everyone in the game that's dead weight. God forbid you demand they do their job, or even worse, god forbid you kick them! Everyone knows 1 person is more important than the rest of the raid!

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What... raid? Hold your horses, I am talking about casual content here. The content which is dedicated to 100% of the player base.

For raid, players use the party finder and define the rules before entering the instance.

Btw please don't try to write what I think on my behalf.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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Lets face it how it is: It doesn't matter how you pull if your party sucks, it will take forever one way or the other. You made up examples with the worst possible players to justify small pulls.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That's a lot of "ifs".

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The "ifs" are met in 95% of all cases.
It is really easier to save time by faceroll AoEing.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When did this game become a job; where performance was more important then enjoyment?

This seems more like a case of people taking a video game waaaaaaaay too seriously, and using the kick option in abusive ways.

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The thing with this "but muh fun" argument is, that it goes both ways.
We all want to have our fun in a game but as soon as you play with 3/7/23 others, playing the way you want, no matter the consequences for others, is egoistic. As soon as your group up with others you have to find some middle ground.
That means for competent players, who enjoy fast and efficient play, that they can hand out advice (politely, mind you!) but must realise that they cannot force someone to step it up to their level just like that.
It means for players who do less than basics and usually play however they like without giving their performance much (if any) thought, that they should at least try to not be detriminal as long as they are with a group. The moment you leave, you can continue to play whichever way you like and if you enjoy thundering mobs to death as a BLM, go for it. Your decision.

Lacking basic competence is inherently detriminal to the group, competence is not. That's something people should keep in mind when they say "I play however I want".
Looking down on people who tend to carry others isn't going to get you anyhwere.

I don't see how entitlement plays in to the OP. It sounds like the majority of the group wanted to "speed run" while the 1 remaining member, who just happens to be the tank, did not. It's fair to say that tank is not for that group, nor that group for that tank.

If a tank doesn't want to try to do large pulls, even with the graces and encouragement of the group - you can't simply force them to. And it should've been left at that.

As a long time tank myself, I do agree that the tank tends to set the pace of the group. I've always used a fair amount of discretion but none-the-less still end up setting the pace. Generally speaking, nothing really stops me from defaulting to large pulls unless someone requests otherwise. In a pug environment I simply play it more safe than not, and with friends I'll push myself and them to the extent the game allows.

If someone want's to be hard-headed about it one way or the other, best thing to do is just agree to disagree and move on. Continuing to belabor a moot point can eventually increase defensiveness and escalate arguments higher than otherwise reasonable.