Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Those dark shadows are messed up normal maps. I made a bug report here:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-Elezen-faces

But they closed it as "Insufficient Information". I still do not know why it is insufficient. But SQEX does SQEX things. Maybe it is too difficult for them to fix it.


Cheers

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Thank you! This is good information to have, even if SE doesn't act on fixing them.

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Originally Posted by Adamantini

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Sorry, I ended up making this more into my own post so I'll omit the quote.

I have been feeling strongly about both the grin and smile changes, but most of my contempt is because of the lip / mouth changes.
As you mentioned big grin, I used it on a lot of my portraits but it's totally different now and I'm too demotivated to make anything new. I mentioned big grin a few pages back in my definitive feedback post here (ableit from an exaggerated angle).

https://i.imgur.com/UDEPxhs.png

Regarding teeth, my character looks like she had an entire replacement set of teeth installed that don't quite fit her mouth. The excessive whitening and the diminished lines seperating each tooth don't help either. Also, I've only seen it once or twice but I don't like the new bright red tongue and gums either.

Since CantDecide’s previous post went over most of the feedback I had been wanting to touch on, I want to make a followup post going over some other details that I think are worth pointing out and looking into.

Eyebrows

The default eyebrows (that is, with facial feature 1, which thickens them, unselected) have become much lighter and thinner. The old eyebrows had a natural “gradient” where the hairs thinned out toward the ends and were thicker and closer in the middle. The new eyebrows, by contrast, are unnaturally uniform, with none of the individual hairs overlapping or touching like real eyebrows do; this makes them seem like they were drawn on with pencil.

https://i.imgur.com/E4I6eB5.gif

Viewed from a distance, this gives the impression of the new eyebrows being a drastically lighter shade than the old ones. Additionally, though the eyebrows have technically stayed the same length, the old eyebrows used to fade significantly at the inner ends. The new, uniform thickness creates the illusion that the inner ends are closer together than they used to be.

I believe all of these issues could be solved by adjusting the thickness of individual hairs, and increasing the density of the hairs toward the middle/decreasing density towards the ends, in order to more closely match the original shape.

Eyes

Many users have already documented the changes to the shape of midlander eyes, and how they have become smaller overall.

https://i.imgur.com/kkBAAnz.gif

I want to highlight one effect of this change in particular: Viewed from the side, the eye not only looks significantly smaller, but appears as if it has actually shifted upwards on the face.

https://i.imgur.com/1rF0Et3.gif

This issue is caused by the lower-outer eyelid having been shrunk inward while the upper-outer eyelid was raised, and could be fixed by adjusting the eyes/eyelids to match their original shape and proportions. Following this thread, it seems that many eye shapes that used to have a similar downward curve in the lower eyelid have had it removed, so I wanted to point out just how serious a difference it can make depending on the angle it’s seen from.

Eyeliner/shadow

It’s already been pointed out how midlander’s eyeliner option has gone from dramatic and winged to tame and “natural”, but something I’ve seen talked about less is how it looks with shut eyes. In the old graphics, the makeup colored the entire eyelid black, whereas now it’s only present just above the lashes. Additionally, there is a noticeable “smudge” to the texture of the eyeshadow when the eye shuts now.

https://i.imgur.com/QGcOgEk.gif

(Here's a higher resolution still image for a better visual on the smudge)

https://i.imgur.com/oHc96nl.png

(1/4)

Eyebags/Face Shape

I have nothing new to add about the eyebags, but I want to provide another example of how unnatural they look--here they are casting a harsh and distinct shadow, despite the entire face already being in the shade. As other users have pointed out, the eyebags were always a part of the face geometry, so I believe this is likely a normal map issue rather than a geometry one, and could be solved by adjusting the normal map.

https://i.imgur.com/Ca5qcMd.gif

Also visible in this gif is the subtle, but noticeable, change to the overall face shape. Her upper cheeks are wider, but her jaw and chin have both shrunken, giving the whole face a rounder look.

Tear Tracks

Many races have had the presence/impression of their tear tracks amplified, and some races that didn’t have tear tracks received them. Midlander face 1 falls somewhere in between: We had tear tracks, but they were much less defined. In addition, the new tear tracks have been raised and angled upward/outward, which contributes to the “swollen” look of face 1. I suspect this is both a geometry issue and a normal map issue. In any case, I believe that tear tracks are now far too prominent across most races.

https://i.imgur.com/x0bkWn9.gif

Nose

Myself and other users have already shown how the nose has become wider and more wedge-shaped, as well as slightly more downturned and flared at the nostrils. I wanted to add another important detail that is contributing to the wider shape: on the old face, the inner cheek overtook the nose just above the nostril, whereas on the new face, the nostril overtakes the cheek. This angle also does a better job at showing how the nostrils have shrunk away from the nose tip, which further contributes to its “swollen” impression.

https://i.imgur.com/kk2DLOD.gif

Philtrum

The issues with Midlander philtrums has been well-established in this thread already, so instead I want to show how it compares to discrepancies in other races between the old and new graphics.

https://i.imgur.com/NJ6rG62.gif

As shown here, Midlander face 1’s philtrum became narrower and more uniform, Au Ra face 2’s philtrum became wider and more cone-shaped, and Miqo’te face 1’s philtrum stayed almost exactly the same (and unlike the other two, wasn’t made deeper). It would be one thing if the shape changes were all in the same direction, but given that the graphics update made these changes (or didn’t) seemingly at random, I think it just means that more care needs to be taken if further adjustments are to be made, to make sure these features match.

(2/4)

Lips

The changes to Midlander face 1’s lips have been well documented, especially regarding the cupid’s bow being a totally different shape and the lower lip being overly round. I wanted to add that the lips look strange from a side profile, with the bottom lip looking as if it’s being sucked in, further contributing to the tense, pouty impression of the lips.

https://i.imgur.com/svrgnWs.gif

Lip Color

The shape of Midlander lips has changed, as has already been shown in many previous posts. However, I wanted to highlight a further issue with lip color: Lip color no longer covers the entire area of the lip like it used to, inexplicably vanishing at the corners of the mouth. As a result, Midlanders with lip color enabled seem as if they are always pouting. Also worth mentioning, the lip color fades away before reaching the edge of the lips, leaving an awkward pink line around the whole mouth.

https://i.imgur.com/tlmw0C2.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/z4kk9ba.gif

This change is especially obvious with any expression that has the mouth open.

https://i.imgur.com/ZDmczI8.gif

Expressions

This is not a midlander-specific issue, but expressions across the board are uncanny right now. Mouths, especially, move in a way that looks like they are being manipulated by invisible strings or hooks, rather than natural muscle movements.

With “smile”, for instance, the corners of the mouth curve up much too sharply, and the expression looks much more tense or forced than it used to.

https://i.imgur.com/Hx8YlhL.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/RRZ4lpL.jpg

“Amazed” is particularly egregious, with the bottom teeth somehow sitting above the corners of the mouth. Try to mimic this expression in real life, and you will find that it requires you to tense up your entire lower face and purposefully jut your lower jaw out.

https://i.imgur.com/xHuY6vO.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/8Gf9Kjb.png

(3/4)

Closing Thoughts

Overall, Midlanders in general are suffering from what I feel is too strong of a focus on “realism”, with aspects such as the intense shadows of the eye bags and tear tracks, or the deep-set philtrum. Not only is this an issue in that these features distract from what should be the standout facial features, like the eyes, but also in that this “realism” looks wildly out of place when standing next to the more stylized faces of other races, like Miqo’te and Au Ra.

This is not the “cumulative” post I was originally planning for, because everything else has already been covered earlier in this thread and I wanted to focus on things that hadn’t been shown as much. But aside from the individual details, it is the overall feeling of Midlander face 1 that has changed.

https://i.imgur.com/3myvuox.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/RFhnOTX.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/zAC8jJO.png

This was my Warrior of Light. Confident, strong, and adventurous.

https://i.imgur.com/udCWLec.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/4NCFmFE.jpg

So who on earth is this? (Not a fair comparison, but a necessary one)

Some of the changes, like the smaller eyes, I can attribute to error. Others, like the philtrum, lips, and cheek/jaw shape, seem like they were done intentionally out of artistic preference for a more “feminine” face. I can’t say for sure that this is true, but in any case, the fact is that we were promised that the look of our characters would change as little as possible, and I would like any further changes to stick to that promise.

All that said, thank you again for listening and responding to our feedback, and I look forward to your upcoming announcement.

(4/4)

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Originally Posted by lunartears

(...)

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Sorry for not seeing your first post, I haven't been following this topic very often. But from what I noticed in your post, the expression has indeed been altered. I didn't use this expression much for screenshots, so unfortunately, I have nothing to compare it to, but I really don't remember this expression being like this on my character. To me, it seems like the character is forcing a smile while thinking 'please kill me.' And what's worse is that it's not just limited to the big grin, but to any emote where he smiles showing his teeth.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...507&height=437

I definitely felt that the quality has improved since the graphic patch came in this time.

Some races have become beautiful and others have been complemented, but I think the biggest problem is (worst patch) female mikote.

In the case of male mikote, if you don't choose the color of your lips, you can still see the color of your skin. By the way, a woman's micote graphic lips have basic transparent lip gloss. The sparkle of the lips stands out.

I think this is part of misogyny.

There is a big difference between complementing and adding new features.
Some women want lipstick on their faces, while others don't.
If the color selection cannot be further diversified, could you change it back to the previous one?

In addition, the face of the third type of female Mikote has become different. Are women's facial expressions determined by their laughter? I'm scared that the area around my mouth, which wasn't like that at all, is dented and makes me smile.
The third type of face had rougher skin and freckles, but now it has smooth skin and looks more like a doll than a living person.

I feel that this is a patch that treats women like dolls.

It is natural for a person's face to harmonize its shortcomings and strengths. In this patch, my face became unnatural because I tried to leave only the benefits. Please stop making the female character's face look like a doll.
The face enlarged by the in-game examine button is even more strange. The color of your face is too uniform. Obviously it has to be added.

I don't know exactly, but the shape of the nose shadow has changed and the shape looks different.
As the shape and length of the eyelashes become constant, the characteristics disappear, lips become thin, lip lines form, and the area around the mouth is dug deep, and the bottom of the nose is not the patch we wanted.
The user would have welcomed the patch by adding the type, but not this time. It's a shame that the patch was applied that I couldn't even go back to.

The scenery, the light source of the building and the map, and the water-soaked expression are beautiful, but the changes in the character graphics are hard to accept.
I know that even if I expect them to put it back, they won't put anything back. Expectations that users' opinions will be accepted have disappeared without returning the much-criticized PVP content. It's very disappointing to see a one-sided patch that doesn't take user needs into account.

Why don't you combine both the company's and the user's opinions to get better? I also don't want to express my regret for the hard work of the employees.

What is the purpose of the patch? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4e6d346c3c532&

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

Closing Thoughts

Overall, Midlanders in general are suffering from what I feel is too strong of a focus on “realism”, with aspects such as the intense shadows of the eye bags and tear tracks, or the deep-set philtrum. Not only is this an issue in that these features distract from what should be the standout facial features, like the eyes, but also in that this “realism” looks wildly out of place when standing next to the more stylized faces of other races, like Miqo’te and Au Ra.

This is not the “cumulative” post I was originally planning for, because everything else has already been covered earlier in this thread and I wanted to focus on things that hadn’t been shown as much. But aside from the individual details, it is the overall feeling of Midlander face 1 that has changed.

https://i.imgur.com/3myvuox.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/RFhnOTX.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/zAC8jJO.png

This was my Warrior of Light. Confident, strong, and adventurous.

https://i.imgur.com/udCWLec.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/4NCFmFE.jpg

So who on earth is this? (Not a fair comparison, but a necessary one)

Some of the changes, like the smaller eyes, I can attribute to error. Others, like the philtrum, lips, and cheek/jaw shape, seem like they were done intentionally out of artistic preference for a more “feminine” face. I can’t say for sure that this is true, but in any case, the fact is that we were promised that the look of our characters would change as little as possible, and I would like any further changes to stick to that promise.

All that said, thank you again for listening and responding to our feedback, and I look forward to your upcoming announcement.

(4/4)

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Thanks for the super complete summary of the issues, i too agree on all you've said, and i think the sad part is how all of this just ends up taking away all the character/personality that the older model had, i also wanna add how much the "shrunk" upper lip affects the overall expression of the face making it look pretty weird, especially when there are lights shining on the character's face from above, which is another problem the pre dt model didn't have.

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

This is not the “cumulative” post I was originally planning for, because everything else has already been covered earlier in this thread and I wanted to focus on things that hadn’t been shown as much. But aside from the individual details, it is the overall feeling of Midlander face 1 that has changed.

This was my Warrior of Light. Confident, strong, and adventurous.

So who on earth is this? (Not a fair comparison, but a necessary one)

Some of the changes, like the smaller eyes, I can attribute to error. Others, like the philtrum, lips, and cheek/jaw shape, seem like they were done intentionally out of artistic preference for a more “feminine” face. I can’t say for sure that this is true, but in any case, the fact is that we were promised that the look of our characters would change as little as possible, and I would like any further changes to stick to that promise.

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Thank you for your detailed post with all the illustrations… you articulated all the issues much better than I could, and hopefully they will take this feedback into account. Both my Midlander and Highlander are suffering from these issues.

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

snip

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Thank you for this post noumen0nn, between you and other detailed posts from face 1 players I think pretty much everything to be said has been. We'll just have to wait and see if any action will be taken based off of our feedback.

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

Philtrum

The issues with Midlander philtrums has been well-established in this thread already, so instead I want to show how it compares to discrepancies in other races between the old and new graphics.

https://i.imgur.com/NJ6rG62.gif

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I've noticed this on Face 1 Fem Highlander as well. The philtrum is very prominent and it looks quite odd when the light catches it, like a cartoon caricature or something. I'm not sure what the fix would be here though. Perhaps making it more shallow or the raised bits on either side less raised?

Personally I do like the new teeth. One of my biggest petpeeves before was how pronounced the teeth were but I quess it's a matter of taste.

I'm going to post links to a few threads that I think are worth looking into. They might be off topic in terms of 'character graphics' however it's in line with the graphical update. If it improves the visibility for some issues (and hopefully fixes them/addresses them), the game will likely return to how it was once before. Please consider it.

Eyestrain Thread - Here
Environment Thread - Here
Benchmark Compendium [Might be slightly outdated but there were alot of feedback regarding character faces/changes that were never altered in the current release] - Here

It's a shame to see that all this feedback might be buried. I tried my best to organize it as I could, I'd continue updating it if someone has some loose threads.
Please consider it! Alot of effort went into the feedback and it's unfortunate that we didn't have it all in one place.

Anyway, sorry if this breaks the 'on topic'. I felt like these were worth mentioning....

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I've noticed this on Face 1 Fem Highlander as well. The philtrum is very prominent and it looks quite odd when the light catches it, like a cartoon caricature or something. I'm not sure what the fix would be here though. Perhaps making it more shallow or the raised bits on either side less raised?

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Looking at it here, it almost looks like they forced the lip shapes of all three of these to fit the new overly exaggerated philtrums, instead of redoing the lips first and making the philtrum suit them. It’s so noticeable here.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I'm going to post links to a few threads that I think are worth looking into. They might be off topic in terms of 'character graphics' however it's in line with the graphical update. If it improves the visibility for some issues (and hopefully fixes them/addresses them), the game will likely return to how it was once before. Please consider it.

Eyestrain Thread - Here
Environment Thread - Here
Benchmark Compendium [Might be slightly outdated but there were alot of feedback regarding character faces/changes that were never altered in the current release] - Here

It's a shame to see that all this feedback might be buried. I tried my best to organize it as I could, I'd continue updating it if someone has some loose threads.
Please consider it! Alot of effort went into the feedback and it's unfortunate that we didn't have it all in one place.

Anyway, sorry if this breaks the 'on topic'. I felt like these were worth mentioning....

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There's also a thread about the combat graphics that are bothering some people. While the player graphics can be turned down/off, the boss and arena effects are a problem for some. For me it was unpleasant in EW, but it became unplayable now in DT with the graphics update.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-more-gameplay

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

There's also a thread about the combat graphics that are bothering some people. While the player graphics can be turned down/off, the boss and arena effects are a problem for some. For me it was unpleasant in EW, but it became unplayable now in DT with the graphics update.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-more-gameplay

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I need to bump that thread...
I agree with you, I stopped doing extremes and savages in EW because the effects were bothersome and the arena design/raidwides seemed to go in the direction of less visual clarity. I look at Hades then I look at Trial 1 in EW...and notice a huge drop in visual clarity. Dark purple BG on dark purple arena, with bright neon mechanics is not great for the eyes....

I fear how things are in DT, I already get headaches from the weird blur/sharpen flicker. I am scared of certain duties most of them being CT raids where the saturation and contrast went through the roof. The crystals are physically painful. I never seen a game hurt my eyes this much and it's upsetting because it NEVER did.

If they do nothing about it, it sends such a bad message. 'we don't care about the people who may have paid for this game's sub if the game is no longer playable, moving forward this is how the game is changing'

I hope this isn't it and that the devs can see the feedback on visual clarity/eye strain and take note. I never had issues in any game before, I don't suffer from anything severe the only issue I have is with repeated flashing lights which disorient me ie. strobe lights and sunlight (that I can use sunglasses for)...unless we're expected to play the game with sunglasses now.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

...unless we're expected to play the game with sunglasses now.

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I tried that, it didn't work for me. All it did was make the darker areas harder to see but the bright flashes and intense glare effects were still painful since my eyes had adjusted to lower light. Also tried adjusting every in game graphics settings, computer settings, playing only in a well lit room with light behind the monitor, nothing helped.

I agree about the message Squeenix is sending by being so quiet about all this. I kept putting off the MSQ (I'm at the final dungeon and trial) telling myself that I'll finish it on a day I can take the headache then realised how silly that sounded. No game is worth physical pain. My sub is now cancelled, 2 weeks left so I'll see if there's any word from the devs but I'm not feeling hopeful.

The graphics update also made my WoL look angrier, which in fairness suits her well at the moment. I headcannon that she was grumbling about an impending flood of light on the source every time she was dragged into a boss fight lol.

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

I tried that, it didn't work for me. All it did was make the darker areas harder to see but the bright flashes and intense glare effects were still painful since my eyes had adjusted to lower light. Also tried adjusting every in game graphics settings, computer settings, playing only in a well lit room with light behind the monitor, nothing helped.

I agree about the message Squeenix is sending by being so quiet about all this. I kept putting off the MSQ (I'm at the final dungeon and trial) telling myself that I'll finish it on a day I can take the headache then realised how silly that sounded. No game is worth physical pain. My sub is now cancelled, 2 weeks left so I'll see if there's any word from the devs but I'm not feeling hopeful.

The graphics update also made my WoL look angrier, which in fairness suits her well at the moment. I headcannon that she was grumbling about an impending flood of light on the source every time she was dragged into a boss fight lol.

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Bruh..well.

I personally didn't set foot in DT yet because I'm trapped in post EW and how everytime I go to do it, I see a bug, or uncanny char expression and I go play another game. I'm really disappointed in SE, I had super low hopes for DT to be something I enjoy because everything I loved ripped in EW, but they surpassed it all, by not only making it so I feel that the MSQ is no longer for me, but my characters, the memories I had with her, my favorite characters and areas, and at some point my house. Is affected negatively. I never expected the graphical update would hurt my eyes, or I would've never preordered.

I think the only thing shackling me is my houses which got grandfathered in. I have some memories associated with them and I don't wish to lose them.

I really wish the message I think they're sending us isn't true, because this game has been around for 10 years, I only invested 4 years into it, but even then is alot. I can't possibly imagine someone affected negatively by this update after many years. I'm sorry if my post is abit negative, but the silence is truly defeaning. I don't think it's fair for us to get lumped in the 'collateral damage' of the graphical upgrade to attract more customers who love when games go nuclear on their eyeballs.

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Originally Posted by Louhikko

Personally I do like the new teeth. One of my biggest petpeeves before was how pronounced the teeth were but I quess it's a matter of taste.

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Agreed, the lines on the old set were way over defined, like a wacky PS1 character in the 90's.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/Ys...tN-1200-80.jpg

The new teeth are a night and day improvement over the old teeth.

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Originally Posted by Louhikko

Personally I do like the new teeth. One of my biggest petpeeves before was how pronounced the teeth were but I quess it's a matter of taste.

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I sometimes thought the outlines between the teeth (pre-Dawntrail) were a bit too dark, which could make the teeth look like they’re too far apart or too small. However, the new teeth look unnaturally white and unshaded. Overall, I found the pre-Dawntrail teeth less distracting. In my opinion, the new ones look unrealistic to the point of being offputting, and they draw too much attention to the broken lighting inside of characters’ mouths because they’re so blindingly white to start with.

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Originally Posted by ConantSivrha

I sometimes thought the outlines between the teeth (pre-Dawntrail) were a bit too dark, which could make the teeth look like they’re too far apart or too small. However, the new teeth look unnaturally white and unshaded. Overall, I found the pre-Dawntrail teeth less distracting. In my opinion, the new ones look unrealistic to the point of being offputting, and they draw too much attention to the broken lighting inside of characters’ mouths because they’re so blindingly white to start with.

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The lack of baked in fake shadows is really distracting in a lot of places. I agree that both versions of the teeth aren't the greatest, but the new ones are pretty disappointing when they look as off as they do considering they were just updated compared to a decade old asset.

Hi, I made a forum account just for this like many others, because I'd desperately like the dev team to see all and further feedback on this update. I'm trying to word things reasonably and calmly, but I'm definitely upset about what's been done to my character. I have a few reasons for unsubbing at this time, but this is probably the largest one as even when other content might not be for me, I'd still ordinarily be able to wander the world and roleplay my character. This isn't possible any more, with how much she has been changed.

Apologies, I have to split this into multiple posts.

I spent many hours collating these images, and I've done my very best to have them from the same angle, same frame in an animation, same lighting direction, even the same location in Black Shroud. These are exactly the same character, I have had the character appearance saved since Heavensward, so all the same options with the sole exception of forgetting to put lipstick on some of the DT ones (however I'm not bringing up lipstick, so I feel this is irrelevant). I really hope these actually show up and this post gets seen as a result.

I want to bring up Lalafell, because I don't feel I see enough lalafell feedback but the changes are extreme and in some cases unacceptable. I believe most of these issues, likely the same as other races, stem from making all heads based on a Hyur head. But I'm not playing Hyur, I'm playing Lalafell, and squishing and stretching a Hyur face into a Lalafell face is a horrible solution that does a disservice to unique races.

First, general/overall structural changes:
https://imgur.com/j5EzFLn.png
Front angle. I've listed on the image everything that is inconsistent between the two, but also made exaggerated doodles to try and help get the feedback across any and all language barrier.
The zodiac stone change is especially bizarre to me. Why is it so much smaller now? That's important to my character, it's the whole reason I enabled that feature. Please restore it to it's original size. The worst issues are the nose and lips, but I appreciate that they're harder to see from this angle/lighting (thank you at least for making dark-skinned characters actually visible now).

https://imgur.com/AR68kfv.png
The changes to the facial structure become far more apparent at different angles, where my forehead has been inflated, and the tiny pursed lips and strange shrunken hyur nose are more obvious. The entire bridge area has changed. I should have mentioned it in the image, but you can also see how extremely the chin changed here too, which I go more into on the next post.

https://imgur.com/jyp95uA.png
To demonstrate this further, here's a top view. Lalafellin noses were very stylised, a very anime shape, and had a really smooth transition from cheek to bridge. Now they have this hyur nose slapped on.

1/3

Now for more emote-based stuff:
https://imgur.com/zBFZ8mZ.png
From another angle and getting into emotes. Sorry for anyone getting bored of me talking about the hyur nose. I'm showing it from every angle to prove that this isn't just some cherry-picked bad angle, it's a legitimate severe change to the mesh. Same for the mouth/lips. This adorable satisfied smile she pulled when stretching has been changed out to a kind of strained fake smile thanks to the smaller mouth and no lips.

https://imgur.com/9kwjruT.png
More emote issues due to the much smaller mouth (why was the widest mouth option shrunk anyway?). The cheeks are quite swollen looking, and whilst the teeth are an improvement over the DT benchmark (yes I remember the dolphin teeth), they're still too narrow for the skull. I don't think the ears are the worst but one of the reasons I'm pointing them out is because that amount of complexity is completely at odds with the lalafellin look. They don't have that many contours on their entire body, yet here's their ears with a higher poly count than the whole rest of the lalafell would ever need.

https://imgur.com/H4brEIP.png
Presumably because we are basically all hyur now, I noticed an issue across several races in that if we previously had an overbite/receeded chin, this has now been changed. Regardless of whether you think an overbite is a bad thing or not... an overbite is what my character had! This is a huge fundamental change to her jaw structure. This also highlights the same strange brow distortion other people have noticed, where the brow bone casts dramatic triangular shadows that don't match what the actual eyebrows are doing.

https://imgur.com/Hwt41dF.png
The same emote from another angle. Wow has this one lost all emotion. The character is now bored, whereas previously she looked on the verge of tears.

2/3

I now want to show female Elezen, because a lot of the same issues here are exactly the same as the lalafell.
https://imgur.com/GfWQbqB.png
The nose has been made more narrow, and the lips have completely changed shape. Very notably, the cheeks have become swollen/the jaw has been moved.

https://imgur.com/2MlpExR.png
Like lalafell, the shape of the nose has been changed, as well as the shape of the lips, and jaw has been pulled foward to remove the overbite.

https://imgur.com/LCcIUDb.png
Just as with lalafell, the brow bone does not correspond with the eyebrows like it used to, leading to bits of shading on the forehead. The cheek-swelling/jaw shifting is also apparent here.

https://imgur.com/O25qwsa.png
Quality control-wise, I also wanted to bring up these. Dunesfolk eyes look really really bad close up. Jagged eyelashes, some very strange misaligned and overly reflective bit in the iris, blurry muddy sclera, and the pores are horrifically oversized. I really don't think pores should be on them at all, again they're not hyurs, but if they're going to be on there you can't just stretch the hyur normal map onto them. They need them made properly.

There are many smaller issues that all compound, but I think the main issue with lalafell, and I suspect most races, is this: My stylised lalafellin features have been removed and replaced with a weird squished hyur. It's genuinely distressing. I'm not a lalafell anymore, I'm a mutated Hyur.

At this point, I'm not sure how this can be realistically be fixed if all races now have to be based on a hyur mesh. So by now I'd actually be happy with a toggle for old graphics, with a confirmation that I just can't watch any DT-and-onwards cutscenes or something. I just want my character back.

That said, as disappointed as I have been, I do want to stay positive, and I thank the dev team for at least acknowledging this thread and the feelings players have had. I hope these images come in useful, and... if the August update brings news that reassures me, maybe I'll resub.

Thank you everyone for this thread, I really hope everyone gets what they need to feel happy with their characters again!

3/3

Watching a lot of these comparison images, from midlander to lalafell and elezen, it seems for some reason, they decided to position the mouths higher up on the models...
I don't see the reason for such a weird change.

I need to check all of my characters for the brow not lining up with the brow ridge. I was saying the other day that I'd just realised it was happening on my face-4 male Miqo'te but maybe it's widespread. There was definitely someone a few pages back who also had the eye socket shadow creeping above the eyebrow line, and IIRC that was a female Highlander.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nattherat

snip

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Them removing the lalafell lip fullness is a crime
I almost unsubbed bc I've grown to love my lala over the years- there literally was zero reason to give them thin lips, and the "small" change was quite drastic and not a good one.
Not to mention the "eyeshadow" in DT looks bad because it's so grey in tone & very unfinished

Oh my gods...

So one of the f!elezen faces got to keep the coloured pupils, just like m!roe face 2 and f!highlander face 4 while all femroe faces got destroyed with black pupils that shadow 2/3rds of the eye.

Also the hyurification of lala noses is a crime tbh; I understand the goal is streamlining for expressions but with all the issues with those as it is and general loss of racial traits in non-hyur races it is just awful. I genuinely would like to know what quality control was done because right now it feels like the entire playerbase is having to beta test something.

While I'm a big fan over all of the update, I do see some changes in some of the faces. My characters EB husband is a m!elezen and even though my friend didn't change his mouth shape at all, it changed a lot. He's face 2. I haven't had a chance to log into my own m!elezen since launch, but as one who was also face 2, I'm a little worried about it.
A lot of changes I have seen people freaking out over have been extremely subtle, or related to lighting and expected just because of quality. However, there are some that are completely different. I do think some of those should be returned closer to original shape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faiarrow

Also the hyurification of lala noses is a crime tbh; I understand the goal is streamlining for expressions but with all the issues with those as it is and general loss of racial traits in non-hyur races it is just awful.

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As a Hyur player I don't even think it's just "Hyurification"; she now has quite a different nose structure to before.

It seems like someone in SE headquarters decided what facial features should be considered "attractive," so they just copied and pasted them across all faces. (Preserving racial individuality? Players surely don't want this!) This person is a big fan of straight noses*, almond-shaped eyes, huge upper eyelid shadows, one particular mouth shape, plump lips with built-in lipstic... and philtrums. Philtrums everywhere. To preserve the "attractive" shape of the philtrum, this person ordered to adjust all mouths to show the philtrum in all its glory. Also, philtrums (as the most important facial feature) should be highlighted in every environment.

And SE designers obeyed without questions.

*Even tiny Lalafell noses have been straightened, and that probably baffles me the most.

I originally made the post quoted below after the Updated Benchmark was released. In the hope that the post will be seen and added to the changes if hasn't already, I am adding it here along with things I have noticed since then.

My original character doesn't exist and I had effectively lost hope of hearing any positive news that my OC, who I have written for, gposed, and spent thousands of hours of gameplay and story with, would return. I'm praying that the recent community manager post is a sign of hope and that she might exist again.

Having had a fair bit of time to mourn and look at my character's unrecognizable face I have noticed the following changes in the Dawntrail version of Face 2:

• The eyebrows are incredibly angular (as the post below shows).
• The sclera is smaller.
• The nostrils are larger.
• The upper lip is less full.
• The jaw is more angular, lacking the soft dip before the chin it had before.
• The white Keeper markings are less visible/bright.
• The cheeks are less round and blush has been added.
• The chin is flatter.

Please note, the quoted section below is from this post and the images contained within are as detailed:

Updated Benchmark = 7.0
Current Engine = 6.58
Original Benchmark = First Dawntrail Benchmark

Quote:

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I personally didn't have a problem with the first rendition...the teeth for Keepers, that bothered a lot of folks, but didn't bother me. The new version is also fine. I am genuinely confused over this change though.
Was this intentional or overlooked?

Keepers of the Moon
Eyebrow options for Face 2 were altered between the 1st Benchmark and Updated Benchmark.
All versions of Face 2 now look angry/determined/focused/etc. A "soft" look no longer exists.

#2 Eyebrows on Face 2 were the only "soft" look and now they are also severe looking like 1, 3, & 5, albeit the lesser version.

When directly compared it looks like the severity and length of the eyebrow was changed with the first Benchmark, but it wasn't as noticeable at the time because the darkened lines were removed.
It still managed to look somewhat close to the current engine.
But with those dark lines readded in the update it has made #2 Eyebrows severe just like the others.

My even-tempered bookworm SGE looks so angry.
https://i.ibb.co/0thGcFh/updated-ben...-eyebrow-2.png

#4 had the same thing happen to it.
It was more severe than #2, soft but more lifted/arched, but was still softer than 1, 3, and 5.
There is barely any notable difference between 2 & 4 in the updated benchmark.
https://i.ibb.co/dWdpd2k/updated-ben...-eyebrow-4.png

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Apologies if it's been brought up, I've only skimmed the thread, but there really seems to be an anti-lip tubercle (I think that's the right anatomy?) thing going on with the update. Most pronounced tubercles have been straightened out or otherwise made smaller. I think Thancred is the most high-profile example of this.

Anyway, I'm a face 2 female Au ra, so... That probably speaks for itself. I like how she looks now, don't get me wrong, but she lost a bit of personality with the alteration of her lips.

I wish I knew why they didn't try to recreate what we already had more faithfully.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argantaelle

It seems like someone in SE headquarters decided what facial features should be considered "attractive," so they just copied and pasted them across all faces.

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I suspect it has more to do with their "one basic face model that can stretch and squash to the proportions of any of the races" technology that they were so proudly showing off at one of the Fan Fests, instead of unique models for every face, which might mean that sameification is the inevitable (and disappointing) outcome or might just mean it needs more careful work to bend each part of the basic face into the specific shapes.

The "hyurification" is certainly real. I can understand why there might be confusion from players who don't look at the meshes, but I did because I wanted to verify what I was seeing in game. Just to clear up confusion but also to point out these fundamental issues further:

https://imgur.com/BDiuqWf.png
Here's a very direct comparison, orthographic view. I won't comment on the ears or eyes here because the shape keys haven't been set the same on both of them. It's very clear to see that the middle of a Lalafell face is now a pinched/squished in hyur face, same with the lips. I'd be willing to bet actual money this is identical across all races.

https://imgur.com/egHBKOd.png
A close-up of the DT mesh, really zeroing in on that nose and lips. There's 101 other problems imho, including issues I didn't mention like my freckles being all but invisible now, but truly the biggest offending thing is this whole using a hyur mesh as a universal base. You can even see where the eye corner leading to the bridge of the nose, which would be a small area on a hyur, is really stretched on a lalafell. That hyur mesh is struggling on other species. In general the whole T-zone, nose, and mouth are suffering severely. The original mesh, whilst lower poly, was also significantly tidier and better shaped for lalafell specifically.

https://imgur.com/a5HWSsj.png
In case the wireframe is too much info to visually-parse, here's a draw over highlighting exactly how the face is being pinched vs the old mesh. If somebody feels they still can't see the issues, then... I'm not sure what to say. The mesh itself is damning proof, imho. Again, pretty sure this will be the same across other races too.

This is why my lalafellin nose no longer exists and has been completely replaced with a misshapen hyur nose. It's as though a simple inflate/deflate tool has been used on them in the 3D software without much consideration, which leads to... kind of amateur excessive polys around those areas. You can't one-size-fits-all different species. Again, sorry, I'm really trying to remain reasonable and calm, I just genuinely feel this was unacceptable to release.

I hope this shows that this isn't an actual faithful upscale of Lalafellin head. The loops around the lips and the nose are entirely different, because they were built for hyurs, not for lalafell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I need to check all of my characters for the brow not lining up with the brow ridge. I was saying the other day that I'd just realised it was happening on my face-4 male Miqo'te but maybe it's widespread. There was definitely someone a few pages back who also had the eye socket shadow creeping above the eyebrow line, and IIRC that was a female Highlander.

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Don't have screenshots on hand rn but this issue is very much a problem. I noticed it on my Face 1 miqo aswell. Depending on if I have a hat on or off my fringe also goes infront or behind the facewear but I can't tell if that's the glasses moving or my fringe lol. Friend has facewear also sit funky on his female miqo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nattherat

The "hyurification" is certainly real.

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This approach would fall in line with that I've seen for the diffuse maps for everyone's eyes aswell. I don't have the diffuse maps from pre-DT but every single one in DT is literally the same one for everyone with just minor tweaks of value (or pupil shape for miqo/lalas). Which is what most likely led to something like au'ras losing their smaller pupil because they now have an identical diffuse map with the rest. Whoever was working on doing the update for characters was really trying to cut as many corners as possible , which in of itself isn't a terrible thing to do, but it was just executed so poorly and had literally no consideration for the finer details that made the racial differences what they really are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenLeafy

This approach would fall in line with that I've seen for the diffuse maps for everyone's eyes aswell. I don't have the diffuse maps from pre-DT but every single one in DT is literally the same one for everyone with just minor tweaks of value (or pupil shape for miqo/lalas). Which is what most likely led to something like au'ras losing their smaller pupil because they now have an identical diffuse map with the rest. Whoever was working on doing the update for characters was really trying to cut as many corners as possible , which in of itself isn't a terrible thing to do, but it was just executed so poorly and had literally no consideration for the finer details that made the racial differences what they really are.

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Absolutely, I'm really glad for the players who have explained the technical side of things in this thread despite there sometimes being pushback/claims that these are imagined/subjective, that's what inspired me to go look at the meshes and textures and see for myself too. I wanted to be certain of the criticisms I had and why they were happening.

I understand efficiency in the workplace is important, and I understand why on paper this would have seemed like an awesome idea. Having one universal base mesh to cut your work down to a fraction? Sounds great! But universal only works if everything using that universal mesh is fundamentally the same in the first place. Actually making a Lalafell, Hrothgar, and Roegadyn all use a Hyur mesh is beyond absurd. It's no longer optimised if it causes so many issues that they now have to do their second major revision to the graphics - and potentially third+, depending on the results of the late August revision. That's now significantly less efficient than if they'd made a bespoke mesh per race to start with. Literally doing a lazy subdivide on the original lalafell mesh, whilst would need cleaning up, would have produced better visual results that more players would have been happy with because it would have structurally remained lalafell. (It also would have saved them time. I can't imagine what a pain it must be to first try and mash a hyur face into something as extreme as a lalafell, and then try and force the shape keys into the same as old shape keys. This is why everyone's noticing their mouths/noses/eyebrows/cheeks/etc are different. Basically this has made way more work for the dev team than just doing bespoke meshes to start with.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nattherat

I'd be willing to bet actual money this is identical across all races.

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Your post pretty much explains everything, thank you.

P.S. I'm kind of curious about the fourth male Au Ra face. So far, it has changed very little (fundamentally, I'm not talking about lighting or overall increased smoothness). It even retained the original, non-standard mouth shape. I have a feeling they kind of forgot about it, and maybe it still has the same face structure as before DT.

P.S.S. ...and then I suddenly realised that I would never get my character back. If they hyurificated everything, it might take too much work to adjust the shapes according to the original. Also, the inevitable adjustments defile the very idea of standardisation, because in the end, the meshes might as well be unique for each race.

The future seems to be rather grim.