Bald Axe Man can Bald. Influencers in particular don't ultimately decide how the game is, it's just their audiences are large and they tend to help shape some of the game in different perspectives.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
But in general? Even looking at damage taken they can still outheal all of it(while the other three tanks can't). We're going to be stuck with WAR's crap until 8.0, apparently, so get ready for another 2 years of yelling into the void.
-
06-09-2024, 03:02 AMHyperiusUltima
-
06-09-2024, 04:17 AMOizen
I'm pretty sure we have it on note that they do infact listen to him on tank feedback specifically.
Which would be fine if his take towards every tank wasnt "tank homogenization bad but how can we make this more like WAR" -
06-09-2024, 08:26 AMPraesul
Massive self-healing has been WAR's identity for like 90% of the job's existence, it's very funny that people just started complaining in ShB. The one time it wasn't a thing was a period in SB when they yoinked Bloodbath from tanks and gave it to the melee DPS, and even THEN the devs eventually gave Steel Cyclone innate lfiesteal, because again, self-healing is their thing.
Instead of taking toys away from one job that makes them stand out people should be campaigning for other jobs to get their own "moments of power" to shine rather than being crabs in a bucket. I'd argue PLD also has a cool identity in that clemency is better at carrying through potential wipes so they can consistently heal multiple people throughout an encounter if they have to, whereas WAR healing is bursty and their main healing method is on a cooldown and can only target 1 person. -
06-09-2024, 08:33 AMAravellI don't think anyone has a big problem with self-healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
Keyword: Self
Why does WAR get to heal OTHER people? Why do they have a partywide shield + regen? Why can they heal as good as or even better than a healer job completely for free?
There's no problem with a self-healing tank, WAR in HW wasn't extremely hated by all healers because they can't sustain the party by themselves, they could sustain themselves for a time, but they couldn't keep everyone else up as well. -
06-09-2024, 08:49 AMSeverianLyonesseTanks shouldn't have heals. Period. It was a bad design from the beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
-
06-09-2024, 09:34 AMGoatOfWarI honestly don't think i will be around to see it, sorta just given up.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
-
06-09-2024, 09:40 AMGoatOfWarOh shut up man, EVERYTHING is Warrior's identity at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
Buff after buff after buff. The job needs nerfs. More buffs across the board JUST to avoid nerfing your favourite just further harms the gameplay integrity.
It just shows how self centered Warrior players are. You don't care that the gameplay experience is deteriorating for everyone. All you want is 123 fell cleave spam for high damage, enjoy the best version of every tank cooldown and be immortal. The consequences of this is that everything else has to be dumbed down as well; Healers have nothing to do because Warrior is spearheading the powercreep on the tank role. Tank players lose their interesting dps rotations because the 123 fell cleave rotation that Warrior's had since level 50 needs to be competitive with them, making any sort of depth to their dps rotation unfair and unrewarding.
Notice how in Eureka Orthos everything oneshots and are damage sponges? Yeah, how else do you challenge the players if they have this level of clownery available to them? Either you just die in 1 hit or you never do.
Warrior's entire job identity is a joke. If you're just arbitrarily the best at everything, you don't have a job identity. You're just overpowered. -
06-09-2024, 01:35 PMLythBefore we talk about job identity, let's talk about role identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
Keeping players alive has been part of healers' identity for well before MMO games existed. If you have a non-healer job that can perform those functions and completely invalidate the need for a healer, that's a major game design problem. While there are a number of contributing factors to this, part of the problem is in how self-sufficient tanks have become.
While a bit of 'self-sustain' can add some flavor to a job, the implementation is important. The risk of dying is major part of what makes tanking exciting. Some people struggle with that sort of pressure, which is why tanking isn't for everyone. Passive regens and on-demand burst heals completely take away that risk, like a soothing pacifier designed for baby's first tanks. There, there, you're at 100% again. Nothing can hurt you now.
Self-healing on WAR was different, historically. If you look at ARR's design, WAR's healing toolkit wasn't all that different from what the average melee DPS has access to currently. You couldn't keep yourself up indefinitely. Every solo encounter was a battle of attrition. You could use your cooldowns judiciously, but you were fighting against the clock, sometimes down to the last sliver of your health. That's how tank self-sustain should be. I'm not sure if you saw the Dawntrail media tour dungeon video that I linked earlier, but the WAR literally gets to two or three vuln stacks multiple times when solo and just heals out of it as if nothing happened. This type of healing is just a safety-net that lets you erase your mistakes on demand.
If you want to talk about healing as job identity on tanks, that ship has long sailed. Self-sustain now treated as a baseline feature on every tank, much like mitigation. Did you see the new 40% mitigation tools and their bonus effects? DRK gains an Excog effect that was on GNB's HoC. GNB gains a HP boost effect that was on WAR's ToB. PLD gains a barrier shield effect that was on DRK's TBN. WAR gains a regen effect that was on GNB's Aurora. There are no themes, everyone now has everything. The only differences between tanks is in the quantity of healing, which comes down to balance, not identity.
The whole thing is a mess. -
06-09-2024, 02:37 PMSupersnow845“Bloodwhetting on a single target is seriously underpowered”Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
I genuinely have no idea how someone can hold this opinion
Tanks have about 3000 potency of health so the shield on bloodwhetting is worth about 13% of a tanks HP, shields also do not have falloff scaling when paired with other mitigations. So let’s assume the unmitigated tankbuster does 100% of your HP, in this case bloodwhetting is stronger than HOC and HS oh a purely mitigation basis
Now ignoring the shield HOC and HS mitigate 10% more damage than BW, so in order to overcome the 13% shield deficit they need to mitigate 13% more damage by being 10% stronger. The inflection point for this (assuming no diminishing returns on mitigation) is about a tankbuster that does 180% of the tanks health, not exactly unusual in savage but that’s simply the inflection point. Even an attack that does 3 times the tanks HP only puts BW behind by about 15% of its HP bar
So in your average general savage buster BW is equal, slightly better on weaker busters, slightly worse on stronger busters and this is ignoring that BW’s healing is 60% more than HS and 78% stronger than HOC
So assuming you survive the initial hit the buster needs to be 4.3 times the HP of the tank to make BW weaker and the buster has to be more than 3 times as strong for The WAR to be in danger of dying to the first hit compared to the other 2 -
06-09-2024, 03:26 PMMostly_Raxus
go even further with the DRK treatment, take warriors healing away from them, reskin it as generic rampart esc motif and then make it a generic tank skill every tank learns at level 54.
there warriors cant cry, because its already been done to drk from its superior HW version to its soy boy SHB version, so its only keeping to tradition...