Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

I... what was even the point in that strawman?

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Originally Posted by Causante

I feel that's not what people have been saying at all. Time travel, convenient memory erasure, dynamis, vague and contradictory depiction of the sundering are the things people generally point out as being badly written.

Shadowbringers spent a lot of time humanizing and painting ancient society (not the ascians) in a positive light, alluding to their ultimate demise as a tragedy, so of course a lot of people were going to feel upset about the events that happen in endwalker.

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I agree with the first point to an extent, but I do not think Endwalker painted ancient society in an extremely negative light. What it did was denounce the idea that it was a perfect society, the kind Emet depicted it as. That's not exactly a bad thing, is it, considering every single other race and culture is often depicted quite neutrally, or if they are painted in a negative or positive manner, there will be a quest or a story line that adds nuance, layers and shades of grey into it eventually.

How should have Endwalker depicted ancients, according to you? Are the ancients not more compelling as a society and people because of their flaws? Don't imperfection and flaws humanize the ancients further, instead of the depiction as '' superior '' life forms?

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

I agree with the first point to an extent, but I do not think Endwalker painted ancient society in an extremely negative light. What it did was denounce the idea that it was a perfect society, the kind Emet depicted it as. That's not exactly a bad thing, is it, considering every single other race and culture is often depicted quite neutrally, or if they are painted in a negative or positive manner, there will be a quest or a story line that adds nuance, layers and shades of grey into it eventually.

How should have Endwalker depicted ancients, according to you? Are the ancients not more compelling as a society and people because of their flaws? Don't imperfection and flaws humanize the ancients further, instead of the depiction as '' superior '' life forms?

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Its the flaws that made me love them. elpis went a long way in countering emets....corrupted(?) memory in a good way.

It's not about the characterization of the ancients, I think most people liked how they were depicted (myself included), what I'm refering to when I cite the events in endwalker is how they were judged. The way things happen in this expansion kinda leans on the idea that they deserved their fate, if you take into account Hermes and Venat's choices (specially the metaphorical sundering cutscene).

We already knew they were going to die, I think no one expected/wanted to save the ancients or contest the fall of their civilization going into endwalker, but when you throw time travel, a deus ex machina(dynamis/kairos) and a "they were doomed to fail anyway" (sundering) into the mix, it becomes a lot harder to reason with their demise.

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Originally Posted by Causante

It's not about the characterization of the ancients, I think most people liked how they were depicted (myself included), what I'm refering to when I cite the events in endwalker is how they were judged. The way things happen in this expansion kinda leans on the idea that they deserved their fate, if you take into account Hermes and Venat's choices (specially the metaphorical sundering cutscene).

We already knew they were going to die, I think no one expected/wanted to save the ancients or contest the fall of their civilization going into endwalker, but when you throw time travel, a deus ex machina(dynamis/kairos) and a "they were doomed to fail anyway" (sundering) into the mix, it becomes a lot harder to reason with their demise.

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Idk there seems to be quite a few people who wanted the wol to stop venat and side withe the ancients... joking aside i always thought of it like Alexander, it was always gonna happen, but now we know how it happened and the loops closed.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

Idk there seems to be quite a few people who wanted the wol to stop venat and side withe the ancients... joking aside i always thought of it like Alexander, it was always gonna happen, but now we know how it happened and the loops closed.

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If you think about it too hard, it gets really confusing and convoluted, like every time travel storyline is. I don't think there has been any time travel story that has really done it right, IMO, except maybe Radiant Historia. Since in that game it starts with a "bad ending" only for the main character to be saved and given the power to rewind time. Only the MC is aware of it happening, and they repeat EVERY action they did prior until it reaches the moment they want to split the timeline (often resulting in a bad ending, a changed fate for somebody else, or continuation of the story). Hell, they're outright told right after being saved that the bad ending there at the start was the result of somebody else messing with the timeline. Really good JRPG, I suggest it if you want an example of how to do time travel right.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If you think about it too hard, it gets really confusing and convoluted, like every time travel storyline is. I don't think there has been any time travel story that has really done it right, IMO, except maybe Radiant Historia. Since in that game it starts with a "bad ending" only for the main character to be saved and given the power to rewind time. Only the MC is aware of it happening, and they repeat EVERY action they did prior until it reaches the moment they want to split the timeline (often resulting in a bad ending, a changed fate for somebody else, or continuation of the story). Hell, they're outright told right after being saved that the bad ending there at the start was the result of somebody else messing with the timeline. Really good JRPG, I suggest it if you want an example of how to do time travel right.

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Haven't finished it since my 3ds broke but i loved what i did play. and yeah, i have to agree it does handle time travel perfectly.
edit: though tbh (minus the 3rd game) i like how the zero escape series handles time travel more. then again its a mix of time travel and dimension hopping.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

I agree with the first point to an extent, but I do not think Endwalker painted ancient society in an extremely negative light. What it did was denounce the idea that it was a perfect society, the kind Emet depicted it as. That's not exactly a bad thing, is it, considering every single other race and culture is often depicted quite neutrally, or if they are painted in a negative or positive manner, there will be a quest or a story line that adds nuance, layers and shades of grey into it eventually.

How should have Endwalker depicted ancients, according to you? Are the ancients not more compelling as a society and people because of their flaws? Don't imperfection and flaws humanize the ancients further, instead of the depiction as '' superior '' life forms?

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No one said they should have been depicted as "perfect". What we are saying is that they should not have been depicted as deserving to be genocided. They were not, and I actually prefer theiir society over the Sundered world.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

No one said they should have been depicted as "perfect". What we are saying is that they should not have been depicted as deserving to be genocided. They were not, and I actually prefer theiir society over the Sundered world.

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How were they depicted as deserving of it?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

How were they depicted as deserving of it?

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The only time i can think of is the group in venats walk demanding to have their paradise back rather than rebuilding and moving forward but thats still a bit of a stretch since they were about to commit an atrocity to get it back.