That pld spent alot of time tanking in sword oath, Notice how healer dps is not as high as the other parses.Nobody is actually arguing that sword oath dps is ok, what people are not ok with is enmity in sword oath and damage in shield oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
Also, for funzies, try and find a A3S clear without a warrior.
PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke
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08-14-2015, 12:51 AMWizhard
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08-14-2015, 12:51 AMSir_Hermes
Why can't they just remove the sword oath/shield oath GCD? Would that not fix the dps issue?
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08-14-2015, 01:10 AMSleigh
Here are my thoughts as someone on A4S and who has an interest in tank balance ...
PLD DPS in Shield Oath is the lowest because it is the most survivable (in general, obviously when it comes to magic tank busters DRK is top tier). Let's not talk about eHP of Shield vs Defiance vs Grit or anything, it's that dang shield and Sheltron that cement PLD's survivability. Say what you will about that survivability being needed in A1-3, it would still be a bit unbalanced if something like PLD in Shield Oath did DRK or WAR level MT damage.
What good groups do to get around this is use a Sword Oath MT, which is still very very survivable and somewhat comparable to DRK/WAR MT in tank stance for general auto-attacks, and due to Sheltron and big CDs, it's still no slouch against tank busters. Unfortunately that's easier said than done until higher iLVL (it's possible to do in all content so far except probably A4S, but you lose more healer DPS than you probably should currently) when being in Sword Oath is like being in i190 Shield Oath, and for now it's virtually a necessity for a NIN to be in the party to make it consistent and worthwhile aggro wise (otherwise you'll just be spamming 123 a lot more than you should against high level DPS, especially DRG who has no enmity dump without serious DPS loss). When PLD is doing its thing though, in Sword Oath, with Slashing Debuff, its DPS is fine, and it's bringing Rage of Halone and a lot of utility.
PLD doesn't need to be buffed in general. It doesn't need something big like potency upgrades, or less of a damage penalty in Shield Oath (cause then we'd go right back to PLD being THE MT of choice). All it needs, as someone pointed out in this thread recently, is aggro adjustments, possible TP adjustments, and maybe Shield Swipe being bumped up to 220 or 230 to make it feel more satisfying to do and not a known DPS loss. Maybe even make Shield Swipe 100% free to help with TP management, I see no reason to gate tank TP at a point where it will go dry before Paeon is needed.
The bigger issue IMO is how Delirium Blade means you can pick up a NIN even in progression over MNK. That DPS increase for something like A3S is a game changer. If that's never changed, either by changing MNK in general or Delirium's effect, that alone could impact DRK hurting PLD in optimal settings.
Not particularly, that's more a QoL thing than a substantial DPS upgrade (unless it didn't break combos like WAR's on/off).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Hermes
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08-14-2015, 01:56 AMReynhartOk, so maybe you didn't properly read my posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
PLD DPS is indeed not the problem...well single target, at least. A little help on AoE would be good, so that's why I suggested War Drum, which would also help for AoE threat. I also suggested Sword Oath to increase potency, not to increase DPS, but only so that the added potency will increase enmity generation more. Because it would make PLD more interesting to play if he can tank more in Sword Oath without risking losing enmity.
What I said, although, is that each tank should have something else that mitigation, because mitigation is the bare minimum. So, let WAR be the "DPS" tank, and give PLD (And DRK) something else to make them incomparable. Keep in mind that they'll probably give us more tanks in the future, so they'll have to find something else than mitigation and DPS to separate them.
As for DRK being better than PLD, it's only because HW is mostly designed for DRK with an emphasis on magical damage.
As for the "Hive Mind", the problem is that their main focus is "moar DPS"...and it's technically the game's fault for putting more and more DPS check. -
08-14-2015, 07:04 AMDekent
How about making overpower cross class? Right now paladins definitely get the shaft with cross class. Convalesance and Provoke, arguably both 'required' abilities can be picked up for warriors and dark, and what does paladin get from warrior? Foresight? pfft....Overpower would give paladins at least another way to generate aggro to groups, especially in situations where mana can start getting tight.
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08-14-2015, 07:27 AMNeaturalBomberYour a tank not a dps class get over itQuote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber
Next people will be asking for defence cool downs so a ninja can tank mobs -
08-15-2015, 01:58 AMIvellior
This post is mostly about raid balance.
The current META in raids is that DPS is king. More dps means a faster clear which in turn means less healing needed and less mechanics to face. Thus higher dps is always preferable.
The current tank raid meta, reflecting the above, is that you need enough defences (HP, cooldowns) to survive the bursts of damage (tank busters) and everything else should be dps. This also includes tanking in your dps stance for all attacks that you can get away with (ie, you only use tank stance when there is a tank buster and maybe on some hard hitting attacks).
That's why if you can solo tank something it's vastly preferable to solo tank. Heck, if people could get a DRG or MNK to tank and survive they would use a DRK or MNK. If it wasn't for the synergies (buffs) that one class provides to another and loot restrictions people would just raid with 1 type of tank, 1 type of healer and 1 type of dps.
That is the very reason the current tank itemisation consists of getting accuracy to CAP, getting enough HP to survive and then focusing on stats that increase your damage. Stats like parry are considered sub-par because what they offer (which plainly speaking is extra defences and thus more safety) is not as good as dps. What makes parry considered particularly worthless are the following facts:
1. It's random.
2. It mostly works on auto attacks (you can't parry tank busters)
3. The amount of defence it provides isn't really enough to be noticed in raids terms. That means while you may require less healing because you parry more, it doesn't really make a noticeable difference as it mostly works on auto attacks (which most tanks don't even use their tank stance on) and the damage reduced isn't that great (it's not like you evade the attack).
Hence parry is pretty much reviled as stat for tanks, despite being a designed as defensive stat.
The main argument I see here that paladins don't need more dps is the fact they are "safer" than other tanks. This argument really baffles me because it is actually going against the current META that is otherwise preached by the same people here.
The fact is that you don't really need extra safety. You just need enough safety to survive and all the rest should be going into dps. That is why tanks in raids don't run around with stacked parry and vit. This also applies to taking a paladin in the raid.
Why would you take a paladin, who provides less dps for the benefit of extra, practically unneeded defences, and not just take another tanks that does more dps? The other tanks survive just as well, or even better on tank busters (which is what will probably kill your tank) and do considerably more damage.
People claiming "the safety" of Paladin mostly focus on 2 things: The shield and "Hallowed Ground" (because Hallowed Ground is the cure to all maladies apparently).
Let's take a look at the shield. Now matter what you say or how you try to spin it the shield is a glorified parry mechanic. That means that, surprise surprise, has the same problems that make parry subpar.
1. It's random.
2. It mostly works on auto attacks.
3. You get the point.
And for all the people saying that you have shieldtron I will answer: "Yes, I can 100% block an auto attack every 30 seconds. Yay! OP! Now to block that huge hitting tank buster... oh wait".
Now lets cover "Hallowed Ground". Yes hallowed ground is good, heck you can even call it the best defensive ability of the game. However Hallowed Ground in not a the "I win" button people tend to describe it in this thread.
First of all it has a very long cooldown and chances are you will only get to use it once in the encounter. That means that you can't use it whenever you want. You have to plan when to use it and in most fights you need to use it for a very specific tank buster or huge hit. If you use it before, then you wont have it when you need it and you will wipe.
That is also the answer to description as the ultimate emergency "save me" button. There is no point of using it for an emergency just to wipe in the next 3 minutes because it was on cooldown. An emergency ability is something you keep in reserve and you can clear the boss without having to use it. The WHM Benediction probably falls into this category.
Second all the other tanks have a comparable ability. It might not be as good but it basically provides the same function. You can take a huge hit (hello tank buster!) and survive. These people mostly fail to mention that the comparable ability is on a much shorter cooldown. What does a shorter cooldown mean? You can plan to use it more than once. There is a small chance that you can actually use it as an emergency "save me" button and have it ready for the time you need it.
Other mentions include that paladin brings extra utility to the raid (and more specific divine veil and Clemency).
Divine veil is nice, but it has a long cooldown and it needs a heal to activate. It can help the healers when you are expecting to take a lot of aoe damage but so does mantra (which is probably better than Divine Veil) and let's face it you wont take a monk because of mantra.
Clemency is outright bad when it comes to raids. The casting time means that the healer will probably heal your target before you finish. It breaks combos, can be interrupted and you aren't doing damage while casting it. It might be useful once every 100 raids. Heck, I'll be generous and say it's useful once every 10 raids, that still makes it BAD.
TL;DR: Taking a paladin is the equivalent of stacking VIT and parry. It works, looks great on paper (safety!), but it's really not optimal no matter how you spin it. -
08-15-2015, 02:04 AMDiscExcept PLD is not an unreliable source of sub 5% damage mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellior
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08-15-2015, 02:06 AMkarateorangutangI feel the same way. I think i've even made alot of the same points about the current raid meta. It's not a design flaw in either, but a the inability for a full on defense tank to cope in a dps-centric environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellior
To be fair though, this is all theory based upon same ideal party environs. This does go out the window a bit when you throw the randomness of 8 people doing things at the same time.
In b4 defensive tank post. -
08-15-2015, 02:27 AMNFaelivrin
PLD 'safety' would probably work better if it was actually strong enough to allow your healers to pull off a significant extra amount of time in Cleric Stance, the issue is that it really doesn't because it's not as much better compared to the other tanks as people believe.