Why I have no interest in Coils more specifically, T9.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Dancing around the screen to avoid or trigger mechanics isn't usually that difficult; doing so while functioning as well as you can takes some practice and skill.

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Yeah but generally most people understand that it is pointless to do it on a MMORPG when you could do the same thing on an offline game (you also avoid sloppy server infrastructures that way; MMORPG have an history for running on engine which do not support those sort of gameplay), thus leading to the situation of most current MMORPG (eg being niche games, in which raiding popularity steadily decreases).

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Again, I state again, I should probably add a third again, so thrice again, I am not--and neither is anyone else in this thread--asking for Coil to be nerfed and/or be made easier. No one in this thread is asking future content to be made easier than Coil content. No one. So please (and this is not directed at you in particular) can we please stop saying that people are saying to make it easier.

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Actually, you are.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

1) Simplify the number of mechanics to an easily memorable amount (players should not have to study like its a 100 question test) I would say no more than 4-5 mechanics
2) Slight increase in time between mechanic executions, as a pay off to keep the challenge alive, make the mechanics even less forgivable (as in you mess up, you die)

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By its own nature, your suggestion no 1 already makes fights easier. No 2 is also guilty because less intervals between mechanics means you're suggesting to add more time in the fight just tanking and spanking. Making certain mechanics that was not instant death into one is also moot due to less mechanic interval because the healers will have less juggling to do and doing extra raises wouldn't be as hard as before, especially if your death doesn't affect anyone negatively immediately outside of dps loss. In the case that they do make your deaths kill others, the lot of you will be whining about team jump rope mechanic but oh wait! Most of you already are!

Lastly, fights like this would make it really easy for really good groups with high dps simply because they will down the boss much faster than the intended kill times and therefore they will encounter less mechanics (simplication: if the boss is intended to be a 10 min fight and it does one mechanic every 1 min, the party killing it at 10 will encounter 10 mechanics while parties that can down it at 7 will only encounter 7). If they implement punishments for dpsing a boss too fast by throwing more mechanics at your party randomly even faster as you dps it faster, people will complain yet again.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Experience only matters if you can prove where it counted and when.

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You're right. If you don't belong to Bluegartr, Collision, or Lucrezia's raid task force you shouldn't be designing games or talking about game design.

Honestly the point wasn't even that I'm 'good'. The point is that you don't have to be 'good' to raid, yet raiders pretend there's some mystic skill barrier behind T9's pattern memorization gauntlet. There's a very small window of about a month where being 'good' matters as to whether you can finish content and at that point it's just being persistent and organized.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

No evidence or anything and yet can not seem the fathom to why more people struggle with T9 and continue to struggle in final coil if they 'pass' T9.

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if you actually took the time to read posts instead of trying to furiously disprove that someone's fcob kills are legit solely because they disagree with you, you'd actually see an explanation of why that is the case. t9 doesn't prepare you for t10's "hey, actually play your class well now" and that is why t10 is such a culture shock for fresh raiders coming out of modern t9, where all you have to do is play overcomplex ddr and sometimes hit buttons once in a while*

instead of sitting in a cush farm static shouting at new players to get good i'm simply giving them advice from my own experiences: look for a static on your level, don't trust pug groups for clears, be ready to transfer if you are too far behind your server's overall progression curve for the preferences of statics there. if someone is new to raiding on t9 do you really think they're gonna fit in with legacy server groups only looking for t13 farmers? NOPE

(*obviously, this is modern-fake-hard-t9, and not t9-when-it-was-actually-hard and you had to actually watch crap like ravensbeak and bahamut's favor and dps had to actually try to push phases at the right benchmarks)

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Actually, you are.



By its own nature, your suggestion no 1 already makes fights easier. No 2 is also guilty because less intervals between mechanics means you're suggesting to add more time in the fight just tanking and spanking. Making certain mechanics that was not instant death into one is also moot due to less mechanic interval because the healers will have less juggling to do and doing extra raises wouldn't be as hard as before, especially if your death doesn't affect anyone negatively immediately outside of dps loss. In the case that they do make your deaths kill others, the lot of you will be whining about team jump rope mechanic but oh wait! Most of you already are!

Lastly, fights like this would make it really easy for really good groups with high dps simply because they will down the boss much faster than the intended kill times and therefore they will encounter less mechanics (simplication: if the boss is intended to be a 10 min fight and it does one mechanic every 1 min, the party killing it at 10 will encounter 10 mechanics while parties that can down it at 7 will only encounter 7). If they implement punishments for dpsing a boss too fast by throwing more mechanics at your party randomly even faster as you dps it faster, people will complain yet again.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Something I would like to see is instead of mechanic on top of mechanic on top of mechanic all happening with an overlap effect where you are sometimes just running from Point A to Point B to Point C doing mechanics is this:


1) Simplify the number of mechanics to an easily memorable amount (players should not have to study like its a 100 question test) I would say no more than 4-5 mechanics
2) Slight increase in time between mechanic executions, as a pay off to keep the challenge alive, make the mechanics even less forgivable (as in you mess up, you die)

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Again taken it out of context you can make anything sound like something else. I was making a suggestion but by removing the line I've added you are making it seems like I was asking for a Coil nerf. Also making less mechanics doesn't mean that it's easy, take for example again Titan EX (and I cannot stress this enough--when it was new content--not now when we are 50+ items levels higher). He only had around 4-5 mechanics:

1) Mountain Buster: healing/cd mechanic
2) Landslide/Plumes: dodge mechanic
3) Tumult: healing mechanic
4) Bombs: dodge mechanic
5) Upheavel: stack/placement mechanic

However during the time of its release those few mechanics were very unforgiving. You mess up, you die; no questions asked. Its just another form of challenging content however Coils don't really have that style of battle, its all mechanic and move on top of another, that one single mechanic might not kill you but because there is another mechanic already going off there is a good chance you will fail. Either way they are going to kill you however one is about precision and one is about "can you recover". Both are valid endgame styles, sadly they did not choose the former for the coils.

It is because of feedback of both sides of the issue that Alexander is being setup the way it is(again, hopefully). This game is not in the business of making gaming ubermensches. If a large amount of people are not seeing doing or unlocking raids as worth the trouble, it becomes an issue when you put story content(largely seen as something everyone can experience) behind content so few people can accomplish. IMO, I'd rather not want raids "forced" upon people, or people to take the game too far.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Again taken it out of context you can make anything sound like something else. I was making a suggestion but by removing the line I've added you are making it seems like I was asking for a Coil nerf. Also making less mechanics doesn't mean that it's easy, take for example again Titan EX (and I cannot stress this enough--when it was new content--not now when we are 50+ items levels higher). He only had around 4-5 mechanics:

1) Mountain Buster: healing/cd mechanic
2) Landslide/Plumes: dodge mechanic
3) Tumult: healing mechanic
4) Bombs: dodge mechanic
5) Upheavel: stack/placement mechanic

However during the time of its release those few mechanics were very unforgiving. You mess up, you die; no questions asked. Its just another form of challenging content however Coils don't really have that style of battle, its all mechanic and move on top of another, that one single mechanic might not kill you but because there is another mechanic already going off there is a good chance you will fail. Either way they are going to kill you however one is about precision and one is about "can you recover". Both are valid endgame styles, sadly they did not choose the former for the coils.

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Nice try on omitting things like gaols, adds, gravity puddle, heart dps check too, btw. Also forgetting that it all comes in the same predictable manner despite having harsh consequences for failing the mechanic and the fact that if certain roles fail out of the mechanics, your party is screwed. Or how despite t10-t12 is divided into multiple phases, they have about two phases each where it's the exact same with an extra mechanic thrown in.

Edit: Oh I forgot, did you remember how titan ex fight went? Non stop mechanic after mechanic after mechanic. What you're asking for, "bigger intervals of nothing happening" does not happen in titan ex! And they sometimes overlap!

http://i.imgur.com/bMT3Rem.png

This mechanic isn't my idea of fun.

Click me for more wacky fun times.

It sounds as if they might be reworking these fights with 3.0

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

It sounds as if they might be reworking these fights with 3.0

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Yep, so they will probably be even simpler than what the nerfs and echo did before. Might as well remove the gates on T5 and T9 now as well.

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Originally Posted by Zeille

snip.

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It's actually not that complicated. It is a well known fact that most guides make everything more complex than it is is practice.
When I first beat T9 we didn't used DB markers. I guess most people forget that you can handle a mechanic in multiple ways.

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Originally Posted by Zeille

http://i.imgur.com/bMT3Rem.png

This mechanic isn't my idea of fun.

Click me for more wacky fun times.

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What about looking at 12 o' clock and then set the marker between the two first dragons you find? Then the second one at the opposite direction. That's how it works. That's how you even do it in Savage, where there're more than 10 different divebomb patterns. It's not even hard... but it does requires practice and more than smashing buttoms while you watch YouTube.