What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

Not to mention that the Source surviving calamities are intended by the Ascian, otherwise the world would be dead lol. With how much they shape history, I won't even be surprised if the Astral era (where people rebuild and prosper) that followed after each calamity are designed by them so they could have civilizations as catalyst for the next disaster.

---

Even time travel as an invention comes down to 1) Ascian machinations resulting in Alexander and 2) a being from an unsundered world (Omega) being available to study.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

It could have happened fast, it could have happened after months/years, we don't know. But again, enough time should have happened for Pandaemonium to happen from start to finish (I doubt we'll get to the final chapter, see the Final Days and then get back out to sunny bright day Elpis) and for Hermes to assume his seat on the Convocation.

---

Oh god lets not open this pandoras box of asking when Pandaemonium occurs. We don't know and thats intended, arguing either way is its own whole dialogue tree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

Also, for the 23567423th time, you're underestimating the fitness of the collective of researchers of the entire star SERIOUSLY devoting to studying dynamis and trying to find a solution to their impending doom vs the expertise the planet's most devoted geek to his super niche hobby acquired during his lunch breaks. How long do you think it would have taken them to match such knowledge?

---

First, were talking about the celestial aether currents, not dynamis. We don't need to get sidetracked again.

Lets ask the Ancients whether Hermes was integral then shall we.

Elidibus?

https://i.imgur.com/1GSjFzc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bVyTrm8.jpg

Watcher?
https://i.imgur.com/h0LhDeJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tUAe7rr.jpg

Emet?

Quote:

---

But it irks me to discover that there is an entirely different form of energy─and no one told me. That personal annoyance aside, Hermes's knowledge is undeniably impressive. Given that there are none among the Fourteen who specialize in the celestial, he would be a welcome edition.

---

Quote:

---

Hythlodaeus: No one else we spoke with appeared to possess the chief's depth of knowledge on the subject, and neither did we hear any tales of stolen research. Which means that if Hermes himself harbors no desire to bring down an apocalypse, then he might be recruited to help prevent one...

...Or so sayeth the illustrious Emet-Selch.

---

Venat?
https://i.imgur.com/y1EyFm9.jpg

Other Elpis Researchers?

Quote:

---

Timaios: What sets the chief's creations apart, however, is how they benefit from his boundless knowledge of the celestial realm. Birds that climb so high that they disappear from view. Others which traverse the boundless sky in moments, and all without riding the currents... I know of none save he who can conceive of such marvels. Even we who prize elegance of form above all else are dumbfounded by his genius.

---

Now only one of them says, explicitly, the words “we cannot replace him” or “we can’t do this without him,” but I think we can see where the evidence points.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

But it didn't need to have a consciousness of its own that she could have corrupted. Let me give you a silly example. Emphasis on THIS IS A SILLY EXAMPLE. The Elpis flower didn't have a consciousness to manipulate dynamis into something deliberate, but it still reacted to it. It must have consumed some dynamis in a reaction that produces that change in color. If you put a giant Elpis flower near her it would have sucked larger quantities of dynamis. In the same way they could have created other things that would have sucked dynamis in larger quantities without having a consciousness to corrupt. Make a giant lamp post, an artificial sun, whatever.

---

The Elpis flower does not have a will, I think that is the only thing I agree with here.
The flower itself only reacts to dynamis, it does not manipulate it. The only things capable of effecting dynamis that we have seen are beings with a conscious will. In Hermes words it simply "reacts by altering its color and vibrancy" as it is "sensitive to the prevailing emotion in the vicinity." A real life analogy to this would be flowers that change color in response to light. Those flowers do not manipulate light of course, they simply react to its presence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

When Y'shtola witnesses someone turning into a blasphemy in Thavnair she says their aether is gone. There's no trace of the aether that constituted them. Where did that aether go if it wasn't consumed when creating these dynamis corporeal beings? Also dynamis crystals exist (you can even buy them with gemstones) so it's possible to store it into crystalized forms and keep them out of her reach. The more I think about it the more I realize there's so much they could have done.

---

Quoting Hermes again, "aether negates dynamis." The transformation is not what causes the aether to dissipate, but the very act of coming into contact with dynamis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

And with all the dynamis in the universe she wasn't capable of twisting a single ancient. That's the density of aether you need to completely block her effects. A single unsundered. She was capable of twisting their creations just because they weren't as aetherially dense as themselves.

---

She didn't have all the dynamis in existence, she had a portion of it. The whole idea of the moon lifeboat is reliant on that fact, as well as any space travel for that matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

But... before they made Zodiark she still didn't twist any of the ancients themselves, only their creations.

---

...because she didn't possess control of all dynamis in existence?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

That's just because we were trying to defeat her, so we needed to reach her in some capacity to interact with her directly. But again, the other possible solutions I proposed (and that didn't take me too long to think of) don't need to interact with her directly nor defeat her nor anything like that. Just block her effects or deprive her of the sauce that feeds her.

---

Once again, there simply was not enough aether on Etheirys to do so. The Mothercrystal took millennia to form, and it only got us there. All other plans run into the same problems we already discussing above.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

But I mean in the context of "how the old humanity couldn't solve the Final Days so a new sundered humanity was necessary and they solved it". I'm talking specifically about the part that made the difference. The calamities and other battles are irrelevant in this context.

Btw the calamities are meant to be survived by humanity by design, exterminating everybody and not having anyone with whom the fragmented in the shards would be rejoined wouldn't have served the unsundered's plans. Remember they overdid it with the 13th only to realize it was useless to them.

---

And nearly failed again with the First if not for Minfilia's unplanned sacrifice. And whether the Ascians were planning to keep a handful around to repopulate means little to those who weathered the tragedies and still kept moving forward. Its not as if Emet was down there telling them its not actually a world ending calamity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

It was to create a better future in which none of that happened. Their hope wasn't put in creating a better tomorrow but instead focused on their past.

---

Quote:

---

The following morning, the hour of his departure came at last. We stood upon the precipice of an unknown future, contemplating the promise of a tomorrow we would never see. Yet still we prayed. That our sacrifices had indeed sown the seeds of a better tomorrow. That at journey’s end, our departing friend might reap that joyous harvest too. We prayed as the Crystal Tower stirred to life, and vanished in a blinding flash of light.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teraq

He hated the Ancient world for valid reasons? Oh, please. We have no evidence he ever tried to change things on a wider scale in the institute he was the literal director of. Animals are stressed when they are about to be put down? That's an actually good point; so why has he seemingly never introduced methods to render them unconscious to spare them the anxiety of imminent death?

---

They actually had methods like that, which is shown in the sidequests. So even the other researchers were already receptive to such approaches, although obviously the ancients vary in their attitudes to the creations... and again I will stress, at no point is this concern incorporated as part of anyone's "test", be it his own or Venat's, and it's not as though the sundered somehow value all creation equally - be it raising up their own arcane servants (including egis or in Eden, primals, Sharlayan constructs, arcanima etc.), using them for a multitude of different purposes (beasts of burden, entertainment, food, etc.), or even going so far as to consume souls to power fighting techniques (reaper, necromancer.) To the extent that there was any "problem", any good he could've done would be to use his future position in the Convocation to appeal to sentiments some ancients were already open to. Rather, his problem is quite literally that they were deciding whether these beings were fit for integration into the broader star, and this caused him discomfort because it brought the concept of death in stark view. He could not understand the value of life if death comes after. You already see this when he begins discussing the will to survive with pure soulless arcane entities, i.e. lightning sprites. It then becomes apparent when he exhorts the lykaones to live even if it means hating their creators, and even if it serves no purpose for the star. There is someone who thinks like this, whose name begins with a Z. In the end, all he is really after is to validate his nihilistic sentiments by finding reasons to blame it on his broader society, which he repeats as Amon. Venat's own view is that they must find an answer to this to avoid succumbing to a loss of the will to live when purpose is extinguished. So in the end this "test" he forces on everyone has little to do with any concerns about creations and, again, he's more than happy to doom them all along with the rest of life to give himself an answer he's not even satisfied with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

And with all the dynamis in the universe she wasn't capable of twisting a single ancient. That's the density of aether you need to completely block her effects. A single unsundered. She was capable of twisting their creations just because they weren't as aetherially dense as themselves.

---

And even its "abundance" is at a 2:1 ratio, not a 99:1 ratio, and it is the weaker of the two. So much so that even a sundered Zodiark was able to hold her depression waves at bay for 12k years, and that it took just a few sundered to stand against the misery amassed from countless stars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teraq

I just want to call back to my initial comment about Dynamis being Calvinball to allude to its vague and nebulous non-rules that writers conjure up to fit whatever scene they want to write. "They could have done X with Dynamis!" "No they couldn't, that's not how Dynamis works!"

I would say that, currently, the score between EaraGrace and Sicno is oogy to boogy.

---

That's just how it goes with such a clearly well designed element. More seriously tho, I feel like a lot of the responses I've dealt with are answered by things I've already said and I just keep paraphrasing it. I feel this will get nowhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

And even its "abundance" is at a 2:1 ratio, not a 99:1 ratio, and it is the weaker of the two. So much so that even a sundered Zodiark was able to hold her depression waves at bay for 12k years, and that it took just a few sundered to stand against the misery amassed from countless stars.

---

Yeah, so I keep saying the real reason the ancients failed is not because of the strength of dynamis and Meteion but just because her attack exploited a weakness in their knowledge, their lack of interest in something utterly impractical to them. The test they were subjected to had questions like "what's the plate of my car?" or "what's the name of my dog?" and Hermes just happened to be the neighbor who knew some of those answers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Snip

---

I need a vacation =_= I'll be back soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

That's just how it goes with such a clearly well designed element. More seriously tho, I feel like a lot of the responses I've dealt with are answered by things I've already said and I just keep paraphrasing it. I feel this will get nowhere.

---

Welcome to the club.

The fact of the matter is that the Watcher references scholars in the plural and credits them again, in the plural. Not just Hermes. Whether he was regarded as foremost by researchers in Elpis, whether the incumbent Fandaniel knew of celestial currents or not, it does not change this. So any insistence to the contrary is just wasting time because it is already a known fact that multiple scholars were involved.

https://i.imgur.com/GRjkfSr.png

I just think it’s hilarious how every suggestion made about how different elements of the story could’ve been handled gets shot down along with an explanation of game lore which basically boils down to “it couldn’t have happened that way because the devs didn’t write it that way” even if it’s a completely reasonable suggestion. I mean how dare anyone suggest that they didn’t care for an expansion story when the devs worked so hard on it and don’t forget yoshi p saved this game and ffxiv devs actually care about their player base unlike *other* mmos and and covid happened remember????

I just know that if the plot had been completely different people would still be defending it and if you don’t like it you didn’t understand the theme of the story, lack empathy, are possibly a psychopath because you liked a villain, need to go back to wow even though you never played it, are a troll, or never played a jrpg before lmao. It couldn’t possibly be just your opinion cause yoshi p is the game’s savior and he cried on a live letter so everything will get defended no matter what.

Ok, back from that brief vacation =_= let's see...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Oh god lets not open this pandoras box of asking when Pandaemonium occurs. We don't know and thats intended, arguing either way is its own whole dialogue tree.

---

In that case let's also stay away from the Pandora's box that is estimating when the Final Days happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

First, were talking about the celestial aether currents, not dynamis. We don't need to get sidetracked again.

Lets ask the Ancients whether Hermes was integral then shall we.

Now only one of them says, explicitly, the words “we cannot replace him” or “we can’t do this without him,” but I think we can see where the evidence points.

---

What I'm getting from all of this is that yes, he pointed out at the connection with those celestial currents and from there they started working on what they believed to be a solution, which was ultimately the summoning of Zodiark, and that he helped a big deal with all that. BUT we know better.

They barely managed to "patch things up", not to find a definitive solution because they never found the root of the problem. I'm not trying to argue if he was or not instrumental in that arguably subpar solution. The part that's relevant is if Venat had told them what the hell was up they could have come up with other solutions focused on the concrete thing they now know for certain to be the cause and those solutions wouldn't need HIM and ONLY HIM to spearhead them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The Elpis flower does not have a will, I think that is the only thing I agree with here.
The flower itself only reacts to dynamis, it does not manipulate it. The only things capable of effecting dynamis that we have seen are beings with a conscious will. In Hermes words it simply "reacts by altering its color and vibrancy" as it is "sensitive to the prevailing emotion in the vicinity." A real life analogy to this would be flowers that change color in response to light. Those flowers do not manipulate light of course, they simply react to its presence.

---

But how do you think the light affects those flowers? The flower catches the light, a chemical reaction occurs which alters the color of its pigments. Reactions absorb or free energy. At least that's how it happens in the real world. In this fantasy world? Who knows. But considering how they seemed to play by conservation of energies with aether in the lore (at least before they introduced dynamis) I don't expect it to be different, also considering Hermes wanted to use it as an energy source. He didn't just want Meteion to interact with it, he wanted it to fuel her space travels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Quoting Hermes again, "aether negates dynamis." The transformation is not what causes the aether to dissipate, but the very act of coming into contact with dynamis.

---

Maybe we're understanding "negate" in different ways here. I'm understanding it as "it blocks the effects of the other" and not as "they're polar opposite forces cancelling each other". Because if it was opposites cancelling it makes no sense that she wouldn't have been able to cancel out the aether of a single ancient nor get past Zodiark's barrier in all these years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

She didn't have all the dynamis in existence, she had a portion of it. The whole idea of the moon lifeboat is reliant on that fact, as well as any space travel for that matter.

---

If she didn't make use of that "dynamis is more abundant than aether" advantage it makes even less sense for her to be a threat and it makes it more probable the ancients would have triumphed if they knew they had to look for her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Once again, there simply was not enough aether on Etheirys to do so. The Mothercrystal took millennia to form, and it only got us there. All other plans run into the same problems we already discussing above.

---

Use dynamis for the space travel, use aether for the barrier. And worst come to worst there was enough aether for Zodiark's barrier, just deploy it around her and not Etheirys. And also repeating myself from earlier, Zenos only needed mere scraps from the mothercrystal for the same travel (and still had enough reserves for our rematch afterwards). Guess our teeny-tiny toy boat wasn't really that good and space travel was easier than they sold it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And nearly failed again with the First if not for Minfilia's unplanned sacrifice. And whether the Ascians were planning to keep a handful around to repopulate means little to those who weathered the tragedies and still kept moving forward. Its not as if Emet was down there telling them its not actually a world ending calamity.

---

No but there was an Elidibus to balance forces if they tipped too far into one direction. I think I recall he "created heroes" through history.

Quote:

---

The following morning, the hour of his departure came at last. We stood upon the precipice of an unknown future, contemplating the promise of a tomorrow we would never see. Yet still we prayed. That our sacrifices had indeed sown the seeds of a better tomorrow. That at journey’s end, our departing friend might reap that joyous harvest too. We prayed as the Crystal Tower stirred to life, and vanished in a blinding flash of light.

---

...Yes, if you're banking into time travel to fix things and you're not the time traveler you're not expecting your current consciousness and memories to be part of that altered timeline.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

More seriously tho, I feel like a lot of the responses I've dealt with are answered by things I've already said and I just keep paraphrasing it. I feel this will get nowhere.

---

This is why I quit doing it in the lore forums. Eventually you start to notice it's a pattern where inevitably the person you're replying to starts from the beginning of their argument (that you already addressed) and the cycle repeats. Hermes, in particular, seems to be the one where this happens most because it always circles back to whether or not he was necessary. I suspect it's such a sticking point because if he wasn't necessary (and there's certainly sufficient evidence that was the case) then Venat's already flimsy reasoning further falls apart. Regardless, the writers were never going to be able to justify the sundering being both intentional and with knowledge of the future.

I haven't seen anyone on either side change their mind about the characters or the story, so ultimately it seems pointless as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhNooo

I just think it’s hilarious how every suggestion made about how different elements of the story could’ve been handled gets shot down along with an explanation of game lore which basically boils down to “it couldn’t have happened that way because the devs didn’t write it that way” even if it’s a completely reasonable suggestion. I mean how dare anyone suggest that they didn’t care for an expansion story when the devs worked so hard on it and don’t forget yoshi p saved this game and ffxiv devs actually care about their player base unlike *other* mmos and and covid happened remember????

I just know that if the plot had been completely different people would still be defending it and if you don’t like it you didn’t understand the theme of the story, lack empathy, are possibly a psychopath because you liked a villain, need to go back to wow even though you never played it, are a troll, or never played a jrpg before lmao. It couldn’t possibly be just your opinion cause yoshi p is the game’s savior and he cried on a live letter so everything will get defended no matter what.

---

It's been a dire problem within this community for years, unfortunately. Not just here, either, but over on Reddit and Twitter as well.

I typically make ample use of the block function when it happens but it does grow exhausting. Worse yet, I know a lot of people who have admitted that they just don't bother engaging with any discussions related to the game altogether in order to avoid the weird personal attacks. Which is understandable, though likely leads to the development team getting a very skewed version of player feedback.

All I know is that for 7.0 I'm not looking for some hugely deep thematic conflict about facing the amalgamation of ultimate despair. Just let me hit things with a sword, and give me some party members that don't make me roll my eyes whenever they come on screen and actually react to the world around them besides just providing lore explanations.

The 2 hours I spent in Elpis with the trio > the 8 years I spent being Thancred, Y'shtola, and the twins' henchman.

I'm fairly easy to please. All I really want is for my character to be an adventurer again and for the story to avoid having literally every other quest involve the terms 'hope', 'a brighter tomorrow' and 'oppression'. Interacting with more characters who have a distinct personality and don't exist to constantly agree with each other on pretty much every front would be neat, too.

Whenever I look back at the cast of pretty much any other JRPG, the main cast are a lot more distinct. Many previous Final Fantasy games had playable characters who teamed up for the sake of a mutual cause but didn't necessarily get on well for much of the game. Steiner and Zidane in FFIX as well as Basch and Vaan in FFXII spring to mind. To say nothing of scenarios where relations between characters started off positive only to sour later on in the game as was the case with Gladio and Noctis from FFXV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

I have mixed feelings about Endwalker so far. I haven't read OP's post cus i didn't want to be spoiled but...so far im giving it a 6/10
The garlean segment was very interesting, wasn't expecting them to include a suicide scene in this game. I really liked seeing this Jullus character.. Kinda upset we have the castle in the background of the map and can't go in.
Right after slaying zodiark, the world is supposed to be ending due to an aether disruption and we are playing dressup with the AI bunnies on the moon. Hmmmmmmmmmm..........

---

If I had to guess as to why those odd scenes with the bunnies and the scion fanfare moments during the dire events, think about the character Puck from Berserk, he is used mostly tool to deescalate darker tones of the story from constantly going thus breaking the tension to reset the mood. That is what they were trying to do lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm fairly easy to please. All I really want is for my character to be an adventurer again and for the story to avoid having literally every other quest involve the terms 'hope', 'a brighter tomorrow' and 'oppression'. Interacting with more characters who have a distinct personality and don't exist to constantly agree with each other on pretty much every front would be neat, too.

Whenever I look back at the cast of pretty much any other JRPG, the main cast are a lot more distinct. Many previous Final Fantasy games had playable characters who teamed up for the sake of a mutual cause but didn't necessarily get on well for much of the game. Steiner and Zidane in FFIX as well as Basch and Vaan in FFXII spring to mind. To say nothing of scenarios where relations between characters started off positive only to sour later on in the game as was the case with Gladio and Noctis from FFXV.

---

I agree with the above statement, compared to previous parties in FF games the one we were stuck with for the past 8 years in FFXIV is a considerable downgrade. In the concept for 7.0 I made in another thread, I kept only vestiges as the scions around to have people to fill out 8-man trial parties for the msq and because I wanted to keep Estinien. Otherwise I would not have included any mention of G'raha or the twins.

Given the popularity surrounding the three main ancients-none of which are perfect/can be liked for different reasons-I feel it would be a terrible waste to not capitalize on that by introducing if not spiritual successors that call back to them, at least characters that are as interactive as they were. A snarky mage who bickers with the muscle of the party. A hopelessly weak bard who has to be rescued due to him being prone to getting into troublesome situations. A healer scarred by her previous traumas who like us wants to just go for an adventure.

As for a villain, I'd much rather go after an evil king/emperor and end up putting the good guys on the throne in their place as opposed to black robed mages "pondering the meaning of life." Someone along the lines of Queen Brahne or Emperor Mateus, for example. They want power, they don't care from where, and they're going to use it against whoever is unlucky enough to stand in their way. In the case of my concept, King Matthias is a man who puts on the face of Count Fortemps one second and the next is revealed to be an abusive tyrant whose daughters are both traumatized by his behavior towards them while his son's experiences in the war have slowly damaged his mind to the point where he butchers a baby dragon without remorse.

Compliment that with an FFIX or Dragon Age like cast, and who knows maybe FFXIV players will start liking their own party members just as much as we've grown attached to Emet-Selch and other villains, because goodness knows there's not much to go off of in making a case for Thancred or Y'shtola anymore (who I've sent off on their own adventure to give us all a break from their presence). If those two are in the main party again in 7.0 and they fail to send us into a high fantasy enviroment in favor of FFXIV: African Safari/Austrailian Adventures/New World Indiana Jones then forgive me if I say that there is no way you could sell that to the core Final Fantasy playerbase. While making use of Meracydia and the New World to establish a Mist Continent-like scenario or returning former Garlean territories to monarchies, duchies, etc, would be the ideal solution, if there is no more space left on the source then by all means beam me to another shard-and leave the scions behind.

It'd be a nice change in pace. I wouldn't mind a potential return to an ancient AU at some point, as I enjoy the ancients, but in terms of a new plot and story direction all the above does sound very intriguing.

I was all for Zenos joining the WoL at the end of EW and I didn't even like him before then. :P Any sort of different dynamic than everyone liking each other, agreeing on everything, etc. Even Fordola could've been interesting. I'm blanking on any series I've enjoyed where everyone started off as friends and consistently get along all the time.

Yoshi-P has already said that the next conflict will be over values, which doesn't inspire much confidence in me after EW.

The only scion interaction I enjoy in EW is the bros/dudes squad; which is thancred, urianger, and estinien (it's also plus if your WoL is male too). Thancred and urianger already got the "good friends" dynamics, and estinien is the "awkward guy". I also like how out of everyone, both thancred and estinien are the more pragmatic and realistic, which is way more interesting than idealistic one like g'raha and the twins (though at least alphinaud is better than alisae in this regard).

*hmm, I think y'sthola is supposed to be pragmatic too, but honestly she's too bland and I don't really get the whole "pragmatic" vibe from her.

I think the start of thavnair is the only time I genuinely amused by the comedy. Feels natural.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

I think the start of thavnair is the only time I genuinely amused by the comedy. Feels natural.

---

I think it helps that it wasn't such a huge tonal shift compared to the other times humour was used in EW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Yoshi-P has already said that the next conflict will be over values, which doesn't inspire much confidence in me after EW.

---

Same here. I sure WoL and the Scions values will win out in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

I was all for Zenos joining the WoL at the end of EW and I didn't even like him before then. :P Any sort of different dynamic than everyone liking each other, agreeing on everything, etc. Even Fordola could've been interesting. I'm blanking on any series I've enjoyed where everyone started off as friends and consistently get along all the time.

Yoshi-P has already said that the next conflict will be over values, which doesn't inspire much confidence in me after EW.

---

If we swapped in Fordola for Y'shtola the story would've improved sevenfold just in entertainment value. Our queen, slapping the twins back to reality and also chewing out Hydaelyn for her 'mankind must walk' nonsense [flashback to Arenvald in the chair]. She has actually suffered, too. Would've been interesting to see how she would react to Ultima Thule.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyborne

If we swapped in Fordola for Y'shtola the story would've improved sevenfold just in entertainment value. Our queen, slapping the twins back to reality and also chewing out Hydaelyn for her 'mankind must walk' nonsense [flashback to Arenvald in the chair]. She has actually suffered, too. Would've been interesting to see how she would react to Ultima Thule.

---

Agreed. I'll take a woman with an actual backbone and attitude over Y'shtola's lore ramblings anyday.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Yoshi-P has already said that the next conflict will be over values, which doesn't inspire much confidence in me after EW.

---

Can't wait to be told "monarchy is bad! democracy is the best!" all over again or to face another "I want to destroy the world because I am sad" stories all over again. At least if FFXVI turns out to be decent I can see myself spending a whole lot of time over in that fandom should the need arise for me to take a break from FFXIV if they take things in the wrong direction in 7.0.

I asked before but i’ll ask again because i never got an answer. Outside of Ultima Thule, what did Yshtola do of any substance this entire expansion. Can’t think of a damn thing outside of reading books.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I asked before but i’ll ask again because i never got an answer. Outside of Ultima Thule, what did Yshtola do of any substance this entire expansion. Can’t think of a damn thing outside of reading books.

---

They need her to sell products like dolls and a guitar even if Thancred would have been a better choice being a bard and all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

Ok, back from that brief vacation =_= let's see...

In that case let's also stay away from the Pandora's box that is estimating when the Final Days happened.

---

Sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

What I'm getting from all of this is that yes, he pointed out at the connection with those celestial currents and from there they started working on what they believed to be a solution, which was ultimately the summoning of Zodiark, and that he helped a big deal with all that. BUT we know better.

They barely managed to "patch things up", not to find a definitive solution because they never found the root of the problem. I'm not trying to argue if he was or not instrumental in that arguably subpar solution. The part that's relevant is if Venat had told them what the hell was up they could have come up with other solutions focused on the concrete thing they now know for certain to be the cause and those solutions wouldn't need HIM and ONLY HIM to spearhead them.

---

Any solution would require Zodiarks summoning though! The Ancients did not have millennia to gather the requisite aether needed to send anything to Ultima Thule. So even if you did create a counter, you’d still need Zodiarks protection to buy yourself time. Which would be compromised without Hermes. If a single aspect of Zodiark is different due to Hermes lack of involvement, the whole effort could fail right then and there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

But how do you think the light affects those flowers? The flower catches the light, a chemical reaction occurs which alters the color of its pigments. Reactions absorb or free energy. At least that's how it happens in the real world. In this fantasy world? Who knows. But considering how they seemed to play by conservation of energies with aether in the lore (at least before they introduced dynamis) I don't expect it to be different, also considering Hermes wanted to use it as an energy source. He didn't just want Meteion to interact with it, he wanted it to fuel her space travels.

---

All of what you said points to the flowers not controlling dynamis but reacting to it yes? Which is the point, it doesn’t possess a will, thus it doesn’t control dynamis.

Yes and her space travels required her to consciously control dynamis to utilize it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

Maybe we're understanding "negate" in different ways here. I'm understanding it as "it blocks the effects of the other" and not as "they're polar opposite forces cancelling each other". Because if it was opposites cancelling it makes no sense that she wouldn't have been able to cancel out the aether of a single ancient nor get past Zodiark's barrier in all these years.

---

Etheirys is noted to be especially aetherically dense and Meteions needs time to gather dynamis. Canceling out any Ancient would require not just piercing through their dense soul, but piercing through the stars aetheric currents. It’s the difference between getting uv rays from the sun and blasting someone with a direct stream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

If she didn't make use of that "dynamis is more abundant than aether" advantage it makes even less sense for her to be a threat and it makes it more probable the ancients would have triumphed if they knew they had to look for her.

---

She didn’t have control of all dynamis everywhere from the start. Else we would’ve lost the moment she escaped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

Use dynamis for the space travel, use aether for the barrier. And worst come to worst there was enough aether for Zodiark's barrier, just deploy it around her and not Etheirys. And also repeating myself from earlier, Zenos only needed mere scraps from the mothercrystal for the same travel (and still had enough reserves for our rematch afterwards). Guess our teeny-tiny toy boat wasn't really that good and space travel was easier than they sold it?

---

He actually is using dynamis in our fight afterwards but that’s besides the point. We don’t know how much aether was left in the crystal, so let’s be generous and say you could shave off six millennia. Doesn’t change much does it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

No but there was an Elidibus to balance forces if they tipped too far into one direction. I think I recall he "created heroes" through history.

---

And what an amazing job he did.

https://i.imgur.com/vFcTyMk.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

...Yes, if you're banking into time travel to fix things and you're not the time traveler you're not expecting your current consciousness and memories to be part of that altered timeline.

---

Precisely why it’s as great example of creating a better tomorrow. You’re past has already gone by, you can’t go back and change that for yourself, but another you can have a brighter future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

The only scion interaction I enjoy in EW is the bros/dudes squad; which is thancred, urianger, and estinien (it's AL plus if your WoL is male too). Thancred and urianger already got the "good friends" dynamics, and estinien is the "awkward guy". I also like how out of everyone, both thancred and estinien are the more pragmatic and realistic, which is way more interesting than idealistic one like g'raha and the twins (though at least alphinaud is better than alisae in this regard).

*hmm, I think y'sthola is supposed to be pragmatic too, but honestly she's too bland and I don't really get the whole "pragmatic" vibe from her.

I think the start of thavnair is the only time I genuinely amused by the comedy. Feels natural.

---

Yeah I enjoy the bro squad much better too. I sort of respect the fact that Y'shtola will, at least on occasion, use her noodle but in EW she really did not shine for me, and she didn't do much of that, either. People mock some of the Ascians for referring to Zodiark as the one true god, but between Hydaelyn referring to herself as a "supreme deity" and Y'shtola referring to her as an "all-powerful being", perhaps let's not be too critical on that front...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Can't wait to be told "monarchy is bad! democracy is the best!" all over again or to face another "I want to destroy the world because I am sad" stories all over again. At least if FFXVI turns out to be decent I can see myself spending a whole lot of time over in that fandom should the need arise for me to take a break from FFXIV if they take things in the wrong direction in 7.0.

---

Ugh, I can't wait. Especially if it consists of more amateurish political philosophy rants delivered by wunderkind Alphinaud. I do hope they avoid that direction. It'll just end up grating on my nerves further, especially if compounded by them messing up Pandaemonium story-wise for me (e.g. more Lahabrea bad rubbish.)

Fanfest Q&A with Yoshida and battle designer Nakagawa.

Quote:

---

Q. What is the most important thing to think about in making FF14’s world and story?

Yoshida: As the director, astonishment and empathy are the most important things to me. The scenario is made so there are elements where it’s good to think about our own society. We try not to make perfect characters, and we try to accept different ways of thinking.

---

Not sure what to think of this since I would say certain elements of EW are contrary to it.

Also:

Quote:

---

Q. How is it decided which NPCs to make into minions? Are there plans to make minions of villainous characters?

Yoshida: Monster-style minions are left to the device of the responsible team, as for NPC minions, they are all checked in order to avoid spoilers. NPC minions are only made when their character has finished their role, so please think that if a character doesn’t have a minion yet they still have a role to play.

---

Still no Emet, Hythlodaeus, or Zenos minions, so guess they're all returning then! (Mildly joking here, I know it's hard to tell in text, but there's a lot of people speculating who will be coming back now based on them not having a minion yet.)

I'm indifferent to Y'shtola. The main thing that annoys me is the way she is pushed as the mascot of the game when it really should just be the 'Derplander' who serves as such. Other than that, the multiple fake deaths are grating but...she doesn't annoy me as much as some of the other Scions. I do, however, think she's pretty hypocritical in regards to her behaviour in the Steppes.

Insulting the proud Xaela doesn't really align with her criticism of Merlwyb for looking down upon the Beast Tribes. Though, as if often the case, the Scions seem to frequently engage in acts that they're eager to judge others for only for it to be excused as perfectly acceptable when they themselves partake of it.

It's why I'm more than a little wary of the supposed shift in a narrative about 'values' since so far, the 'values' embraced in what is meant to be a fictional fantasy setting perfectly aligns with whatever is the safest, most inoffensive option possible. Which is pretty boring to me.

Can you even blame Asahi for saying to the Scions that he never wants to see them again? At least he gets his wish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

Can you even blame Asahi for saying to the Scions that he never wants to see them again? At least he gets his wish.

---

I don't blame him at all. As much as I like some of the Scions, none of them are necessary for me to enjoy FFXIV and most have overstayed their welcome. I found myself pleased when the Scions were disbanded as an organisation and that relief lasted all of five seconds before the game telegraphed with as much subtlety as a hammer to the face that the Scion's aren't actually disbanding and they're totally sticking around for future appearances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Any solution would require Zodiarks summoning though! The Ancients did not have millennia to gather the requisite aether needed to send anything to Ultima Thule. So even if you did create a counter, you’d still need Zodiarks protection to buy yourself time. Which would be compromised without Hermes. If a single aspect of Zodiark is different due to Hermes lack of involvement, the whole effort could fail right then and there.

---

Zodiark and the reinforcement of the celestial currents was the best blind solution they could come up with without knowing the core of the issue. It was a giant flex tape. Catering directly to dynamis may have let them come up with better ways of dealing with it that could have been more energy efficient, more sustainable, etc. and requiring less sacrifice. Speaking of sacrifice, having the aether of their own creations available before they got transformed by Meteion would have helped too.

But more importantly, these "possible solutions" I mentioned are just examples of "they could have tried stuff". I don't mean them to be perfect, I don't mean the ancients would have succeeded with a 100% chance, but that they could have at least TRIED something different. But no, instead Venat just sat on her high horse, let them fail the way she already knew they would fail and then pulled her act. That's the point you're missing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

All of what you said points to the flowers not controlling dynamis but reacting to it yes? Which is the point, it doesn’t possess a will, thus it doesn’t control dynamis.

Yes and her space travels required her to consciously control dynamis to utilize it.

---

You're just not getting that a refrigerator doesn't need an AI to consume electricity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Etheirys is noted to be especially aetherically dense and Meteions needs time to gather dynamis. Canceling out any Ancient would require not just piercing through their dense soul, but piercing through the stars aetheric currents. It’s the difference between getting uv rays from the sun and blasting someone with a direct stream.

---

...But the Final Days happened first on the regions where the celestial currents were stagnating, without their protection. And she still couldn't transform an ancient. "B-but she didn't have access to enough dynamis yet to unmake them!" So she was still weak enough then? So send a space mission to beat her. If they had started on it right after leaving Ktisis she wouldn't have that much of a lead. Hell, why not make a Zodiark who would have traveled like Zenos did, beaten the hell outta her, come back and then restore the ancients from him? Zodiark's mission would be complete, he wouldn't be needed to remain like our shielding Zodiark did so they wouldn't need new life to take their place.

See, the more you think about it the more possibilites arise other than "let's flex tape the celestial currents".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

He actually is using dynamis in our fight afterwards but that’s besides the point. We don’t know how much aether was left in the crystal, so let’s be generous and say you could shave off six millennia. Doesn’t change much does it.

---

Oh right, my bad. I try to not think too much about that fight so I completely forgot that part. But like you said, that's besides the point. Don't forget Hydaelyn was highly taxed with "containing" Zodiark, so that limited how much aether she could divert to the mothercrystal. So don't take how long it took her as a measure of anything. Besides, even accounting for her primal form, she's just 1 ancient. Put all ancients together to speed up the process.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And what an amazing job he did.

---

Yeah, from what I recall Mitron and Loghrif turning into Eden (and causing the flood of light) was an accident and not part of their original plan. Still, Elidibus was trying to fix it by bringing Ardbert and company and cause another calamity before it was too late. It was us who prevented that calamity from happening before Minfilia traveled to stop the flood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Precisely why it’s as great example of creating a better tomorrow. You’re past has already gone by, you can’t go back and change that for yourself, but another you can have a brighter future.

---

Tell that to G'raha, the architect of everything that happened in SHB.

Fanfest Q&A with Yoshida and battle designer Nakagawa.

Oh god, lol. "Accept different ways of thinking", unless it's the antagonist's way of thinking. Because god forbid the WoL or the Scions made "evil" decision. Seriously, I hate how the story and the lore seems to bend over backwards a lot of time to either justify our actions, or so that we don't have to take the "lesser evil" path. Just like how in 5.3 apparently all the WoLs we fight are only projection of their will, in an expansion sold as "we are the villain".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

"B-but she didn't have access to enough dynamis yet to unmake them!" So she was still weak enough then? So send a space mission to beat her. If they had started on it right after leaving Ktisis she wouldn't have that much of a lead. Hell, why not make a Zodiark who would have traveled like Zenos did, beaten the hell outta her, come back and then restore the ancients from him? Zodiark's mission would be complete, he wouldn't be needed to remain like our shielding Zodiark did so they wouldn't need new life to take their place.

---

This is what I've been thinking too. If Zodiark is a dnd character, he would be one who put 9 stats into defense and 1 into offense, considering his main thing is making a planet-size barrier and replenish the land's aether. If the Ancients already knew about the root of their problem, they could have make Zodiark more focused on offense (like hydaelyn). He could fly fly into Ultima Thule and blast meteion with concentrated aether, since she won't be as strong as her current version we fought. Besides, as Lauront had mentioned before, the dynamis:aether ratio in space isn't like 99:1, but 2:1 (though technically it's 6:4). That means their fighting chance isn't 0%.

Sure, summoning Zodiark still requires massive sacrifice, but that's proof that they have the strength to resist despair.

Going into Endwalker I was SO stoked at the possibility that the story would go the direction of Zodiark becoming a useful ally because he, himself, is not evil. I wanted so badly for him to reach out to us and offer to hold off the final days for us to solve the root cause, and I wanted that root cause to be something psychological or intangible. Then, at the very end, Hydaelyn and Zodiark both combine powers and sacrifice themselves to deliver the final blow and leave behind a brighter tomorrow for the people they know they no longer have to look after. I have a feeling a lot of people were expecting something like this, and it would've been HYPE. But Ishikawa, oh Ishikawa, it seems she's learned since Shadowbringers to go liberally apply shock value. Every story beat in the game was "you thought THAT was crazy, wait until you see THIS!" and while it got me excited in the moment, reflecting upon what just happened always made me feel more disappointed. "This story is so huge that you have to kill Zodiark AS THE FIRST TRIAL!!!!!" Nah what you mean to say is that you made him a complete and utter disappointment. The god of the one true enemy we've had these past 11 years, gone in the first few levels of the grand finale expansion. Hardly even mentioned again.

As for Hydaelyn, while I felt her arc was the most compelling part of the story along with the sundering scene, at the end she wasn't all that useful either. Like, yippee, she gave us a tracking device and enhanced the friend-summoning magic we already had since 5.3, now she's dead. Cool. It really didn't have to end that way. There's one thing I like to say a lot when it comes to critiquing these kinds of stories and it's that being predictable isn't (always) a bad thing. Like, sure, if the entire story is predictable then it becomes boring. But if you're making up some random BS in the story just to avoid doing what we think you'll do then it starts getting jank. And the result of all of that was... the two most important primals in the game being diminished to a catalyst and a GPS. Also now we have a bootstrap paradox to answer every question ever. "Why did this happen back then?" oh because we told them to do it! I'll never come to love the Elpis arc the way so many others did. Just so, so lame.

Imagine if we had gone to the moon to entreat with Zodiark, awaken him and ask for his help to forestall the calamity again. Then we could've gotten an answer from him, not his husk of a body taken over by Damn Daniel, I mean He Himself. Imagine if we hadn't seen Hydaelyn's true form until the very end, right as she does a grand sacrifice to kill the manifestation of the despair which causes the final days. She and Zodiark unite for a killing blow, and after that happens, she speaks to us in the form of a massive aetherial being, too massive for us to comprehend, and tells us about the future of the world she's leaving behind for us, and then finally dissipates. Predictable? Definitely. Satisfying? Oh boy would it have been.

Except Elidibus was Zodiark, just like Venat became the core of Hydaelyn... There was nothing there to talk to anymore, considering Elibidus got absorbed into the Crystal Tower

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsiron

Except Elidibus was Zodiark, just like Venat became the core of Hydaelyn... There was nothing there to talk to anymore, considering Elibidus got absorbed into the Crystal Tower

---

I mean, that's not necessarily true. Elidibus might have been gone, but there were plenty of souls still existing within Zodiark—souls Fandaniel had to squelch before he could take over the primal for himself. Any one of them, or even all of them combined, could have served as Zodiark's will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

Fanfest Q&A with Yoshida and battle designer Nakagawa.

Oh god, lol. "Accept different ways of thinking", unless it's the antagonist's way of thinking. Because god forbid the WoL or the Scions made "evil" decision. Seriously, I hate how the story and the lore seems to bend over backwards a lot of time to either justify our actions, or so that we don't have to take the "lesser evil" path. Just like how in 5.3 apparently all the WoLs we fight are only projection of their will, in an expansion sold as "we are the villain".

---

It was very disappointing to me. And the linguistic tricks about becoming the WoD. Very meh. Not what I had hoped for.

Quote:

---

This is what I've been thinking too. If Zodiark is a dnd character, he would be one who put 9 stats into defense and 1 into offense, considering his main thing is making a planet-size barrier and replenish the land's aether. If the Ancients already knew about the root of their problem, they could have make Zodiark more focused on offense (like hydaelyn). He could fly fly into Ultima Thule and blast meteion with concentrated aether, since she won't be as strong as her current version we fought. Besides, as Lauront had mentioned before, the dynamis:aether ratio in space isn't like 99:1, but 2:1 (though technically it's 6:4). That means their fighting chance isn't 0%.

Sure, summoning Zodiark still requires massive sacrifice, but that's proof that they have the strength to resist despair.

---

TBH, Zodiark is built to restore the laws of the star, so I suspect he can make very flexible use of his powers. A lot of it was channelled into providing a barrier to the star, that somehow remained even while he is imprisoned, suggesting his mere existence powered it. Whatever her focus, she could not defeat him without dragging the whole star into it (he stood in the way of her wiping out her people through sundering them), and this was without his heart even. Maybe she struggled with the platform mechanic, who knows. :`) We only got a glimpse of a weakened Zodiark driven by a suicidal lunatic. In any case, they had plenty of time to experiment with various techniques and methods (including selective and consensual sundering of a handful of their own) and in the end Venat did little to prepare the sundered to wield dynamis other than sundering way in excess what was needed to wield it. They didn't even know what it was until the last minute. So the idea that an ingenious civilisation that the ancients could not devise a method to deal with it, armed with the knowledge of what it was, is fanciful to me and the lore certainly hasn't even been written so as to close it off as possibilities, contrary to the protestations of some. It's probably why the time shenanigans were thrown in, to distract attention from that and remove those options in the story we got from consideration but without removing them outright as possibilities had things gone a bit differently.

But the option of creating purely offence focused primals, especially once the star was capable of producing aether once more, is there, and we saw the impressive use Elidibus could make of even a bit of primal/prayer power in SoS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Millybonk

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

---

Your take is cheap and lazy.

While EW is no masterwork of literature, it's also not the reductio ad absurdum you make it out to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

It was very disappointing to me. And the linguistic tricks about becoming the WoD. Very meh. Not what I had hoped for.

---

Likewise. What's even more bizarre is that, the expansion after Shadowbringers, we ended up getting Reaper as a playable job. So it's pretty weird to me that Shadowbringers pulled so many punches and wouldn't even deign to allow our character to wield Darkness in MSQ cutscenes in order to counter the Light.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsiron

Except Elidibus was Zodiark, just like Venat became the core of Hydaelyn... There was nothing there to talk to anymore, considering Elibidus got absorbed into the Crystal Tower

---

So Zodiark was doomed to suck since 5.3. That’s not good… We could've definitely had everything in 5.3 progress the way it did without it being an excuse to neuter Zodiark for our future encounter with him. Like, what was the point in making Elidibus a primal instead of just a very devoted and insane ascian? Why was Zodiark’s existence tied to this singular killable man? The eldest and most powerful of primals, made into a vegetable because we killed the right dude. Sure that’s the literal reason that he became that useless but things didn’t have to be this way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

https://i.ibb.co/zRtPKG3/girlwhat.png
I'm not sure why people liked venat, after she said she wanted to kill us to our face lmao.

---

After finishing EW, the only thing I liked from venat is the fact they finally give representation of ffxv through her "armiger". Straight up yelled when I saw that during our fight lol.

Plus, do you know that her "dodging"/phasing ability is called True Blink? The same as ffxv ability.

Sorry about this, just ffxv fangirl being happy XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

https://i.ibb.co/zRtPKG3/girlwhat.png
I'm not sure why people liked venat, after she said she wanted to kill us to our face lmao.

---

She might as well say: "it was my intent to murder you, but clearly I'm too weak."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

But more importantly, these "possible solutions" I mentioned are just examples of "they could have tried stuff". I don't mean them to be perfect, I don't mean the ancients would have succeeded with a 100% chance, but that they could have at least TRIED something different. But no, instead Venat just sat on her high horse, let them fail the way she already knew they would fail and then pulled her act. That's the point you're missing.

---

Its not a point that I'm "missing" its a point the game directly addresses and gives no reason to argue with. If you don't like the reasons the game gives then fine, sure, but they exist and if we are going to discuss what the text is saying then we have to grapple with it. Either you have a good reason to believe that Venat was wrong and that she was so unwilling to abide by other solutions so as to commit to the sundering (an act we know she didn't want to do follow through on) or you don't. I've tried my best to show that the text gives reasons why these options wouldn't work and why the characters in the story don't act on them. But to me, the text is clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

You're just not getting that a refrigerator doesn't need an AI to consume electricity.

---

I'm pretty sure my fridge doesn't run on me yelling obscenities at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

...But the Final Days happened first on the regions where the celestial currents were stagnating, without their protection. And she still couldn't transform an ancient. "B-but she didn't have access to enough dynamis yet to unmake them!" So she was still weak enough then? So send a space mission to beat her.

---

With what ship and what aether. You think Hydaelyn sat in the aetherial sea gathering aether for shits and giggles?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

If they had started on it right after leaving Ktisis she wouldn't have that much of a lead. Hell, why not make a Zodiark who would have traveled like Zenos did, beaten the hell outta her, come back and then restore the ancients from him? Zodiark's mission would be complete, he wouldn't be needed to remain like our shielding Zodiark did so they wouldn't need new life to take their place.

---

How would they get there. If there's a single piece of dialogue suggesting how they should do so, knowing the limitations of their control of dynamis and the fact that by this point she already has innumerable sisters on innumerable worlds, how would you even get to Ultima.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

See, the more you think about it the more possibilites arise other than "let's flex tape the celestial currents".

---

"You don't need Frodo to carry the ring, just get the eagles to carry him! Easy solution you dumb old wizard!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

Oh right, my bad. I try to not think too much about that fight so I completely forgot that part. But like you said, that's besides the point. Don't forget Hydaelyn was highly taxed with "containing" Zodiark, so that limited how much aether she could divert to the mothercrystal. So don't take how long it took her as a measure of anything. Besides, even accounting for her primal form, she's just 1 ancient. Put all ancients together to speed up the process.

---

That wasn't Her power though. That was the aether that gathered in the aetherial sea, which She refused to partake of so we would have enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

Yeah, from what I recall Mitron and Loghrif turning into Eden (and causing the flood of light) was an accident and not part of their original plan. Still, Elidibus was trying to fix it by bringing Ardbert and company and cause another calamity before it was too late. It was us who prevented that calamity from happening before Minfilia traveled to stop the flood.

---

So in summary, the Ascians manipulated a world too well, failed to cause a rejoining and led to a flood of darkness that consumed the 13th and an imbalance of light on the 1st.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

https://i.ibb.co/zRtPKG3/girlwhat.png
I'm not sure why people liked venat, after she said she wanted to kill us to our face lmao.

---

I… I genuinely can’t tell if people think she actually intended to kill us there or not, you’re joking about it right?

Right?

She literally says she had aimed to sunder us. But failed. What from this single sentence do you not understand?