First thing first, it is capped to prolonge its longevity, if you can get the best gear to raid in a couple of day, the raid would last even less longuer, its basic math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabuza
Then the endgame flop, it is people that don't like the execution or is it the content that isn't popular to begin with ? Medit on this.
Lack of End Game Content
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08-14-2019, 12:17 AMNariel
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08-14-2019, 12:21 AMXatsh
I would argue ultimate has flopped, the mass majority of raiders do not even try it.
Issue is they added a fight that takes 100s of hours to clear... and you are rewarded with nothing but a glamour.
If SE adds time killers... and they rewards you with literally nothing but bragging rights and a shinny lvl 1 weapon basically... Then besides the epeen elitest (Which are not the majority of hardcore players) who the hell if going to waste time on them. Would be like a quest line that takes 75hrs to complete and you get a minion as a reward. -
08-14-2019, 12:22 AMXatshQuote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
Well think of it this way if they uncapped it and people could complete the entire games content in a week or 2..
That is the point of this thread... there is not enough to do. -
08-14-2019, 12:23 AMForever_LearningThey also added those things because people wanted more end-game content, like you are doing here. The irony is that many of those same people, like yourself, havent done Ultimate, and the non-exclusive end-game content they have added, like blue mage or hunts, has been popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabuza
So, people asking for more end game content often choose against doing it, report their dislike for other things added, yet continue to ask for more end-game content? -
08-14-2019, 12:24 AMZabuzaI have done Ultimate. I have tried it in the past. Again, I just haven't cleared it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Learning
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08-14-2019, 12:28 AMNarielHere we go again, are you aware of the finite amout of ressources and content a team of dev's have to go with to do a game ? Of course they do roadblock to increase longevity because it never can be enough for everyone, if you let them, some people would go BiS in a week and then complaign they finished everything by playing 24/24 for a whole week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
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08-14-2019, 12:44 AMForteNightshadeUltimate garnered more Twitch viewership in a single week than FFXIV has ever seen in its lifetime. Considering it was designed almost entirely with reused assets expressly because they reduced the difficulty of Savage. I think it did quite well, especially since they're adding two more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
As for it being glamour. People at this level aren't doing it for the rewards. They're attempting it for the challenge. Having completed Ultimate myself, I couldn't care less about the weapons. They're cool, and I like collecting them. But I went into Ultimate because it's extremely hard content I wanted to complete. -
08-14-2019, 01:11 AMgalbsadiI don't feel the static I'm running with is quite cohesive enough for it yet (we're still searching for a physical ranged DPS to replace the DNC that never showed for 2 weeks in a row, for example)...but I would love to run Ultimate for the shiny weapon glamour. I like shiny things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
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08-14-2019, 01:20 AMHawklaserMost get that the purpose of weekly caps is to slow down content consumption, but there is also a bit of irony to them. So many keep bringing up that the devs want us to take breaks and do other things, yet they keep using weekly caps. Weekly caps are one of the things that lead to people feeling like they can't take a prolonged break. Want to have more than one job geared up with current BiS? Better not miss hitting a single weekly cap. Thankfully there are not a lot of weekly caps yet. But if you really wanted to promote the take a break feeling, why not just remove the caps and let people do the content as fast or as slow as they want instead of gating them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
Gated or not, if there is an actual lack to a particular style of content people will find it. -
08-14-2019, 01:22 AMjameseoakesThe tome currency works though and there 's not really a need to change it, the cap is rather artificial but it does it's job to pad out the contentQuote:
Originally Posted by Zabuza
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08-14-2019, 01:28 AMNarielAny meaningfull prolonged break would lead to come back next patch or around it, next patch implementing new gear on par with current token gear or totaly new token gear, uncapping the tome tier you were on meaning you can finish your set, get an upgrade if you so desire and start the new tier without being undergeared. And I dont' even mention the dungeon that will give correct gear you can do almost naked. At level 80, if you take your pause now, you'd have to come back in at least one years to be undergeared significantly enough to require any consequent farming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
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08-14-2019, 01:32 AMgalbsadiThing is, the weekly caps are low enough that they do allow for at least shorter breaks while you're actively playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
For example, the cap on Phantasmagoria is 450 tomestones/week. That's equivalent to:- 5 Expert Roulette dungeons (and nothing else)
- Less than two days of all roulettes (other than Mentor) at lv80 (one day gives 265-281 tomestones [the higher amounts if you get a lv80 normal raid and/or the lv80 trial])
- 4.5 sets of just the MSQ roulette and Alliance Raid roulette (that's right, no lv80 content whatsoever!)
If you consider that the average Expert roulette takes 25-30m (less with a good group, worse with a particularly bad group)...that's 30m/day to cap, with two days not playing at all...and the option to fully cap in a weekend if that doesn't work out (or even in a day if you grind out lv80 dungeons, which give 50 tomestones/run outside of a roulette bonus)...it's a joke, really.
Further, every even patch all gear that was previously obtainable via the limited tomestone becomes available via the unlimited tomestone, so there's always a quick and easy catch-up.
Further still, every odd patch has a more casual type of raid (alliance raids) that drop gear equal to that from limited tomestones.
On top of that, the normal versions of even-patch raids drop gear that's almost as good as that from the limited tomestone.
Then there's crafted gear, etc. Basically there's nothing holding you back from being literally caught up to where you're capable of raiding the current savage tier within a couple hours of returning even after a prolonged break. (By comparison, I last raided WoW in Uldir, at the Mythic level, and then took a break for about 7 months. I went from, while not BiS, some of the best gear in the game...to worse than is available via world drops, and barely enough to even enter LFR...on top of being probably 30 levels behind on the neckpiece).
So, sure, you can't get BiS quickly without the caps, but you can get good enough...and let's be honest, that's all you need anyhow. -
08-14-2019, 01:35 AMAvraymI disagree. You can easily get Rokan's Goetia full set in a day - even in 5.0... that sure didn't feel like it was padding out content.Quote:
Originally Posted by jameseoakes
Phantasmagoria tomes are a different story with the cap and smaller gains - but it still feels lacklustre and too easy to obtain (lets remember that a lot of 470 gear BiS is Phantasmagoria).
I'd prefer if tomes were rewarded for greater achievements, rather than capped and hidden behind unchallenging content in an attempt to drag things out by nature. -
08-14-2019, 01:37 AMjameseoakesThat's what the savage gear is for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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08-14-2019, 01:40 AMNarielMeh, tomestones are the casual access to sub BiS gear, to get BiS you need to down savage or wait 3 to 4 month the release of the 24 man raid to get one pieces upgrade/week. And even like that you'll never get a BiS weapon or better sub-stat gear you may regard as BiS. I think raider/challenge-eater already have enough exclusive reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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08-14-2019, 01:40 AMAvraymSavage gear is also behind a lockout - a system which punishes you for not doing it with a static by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by jameseoakes
I've managed to pug most of it each week and still haven't gotten a single drop.
Another system I think needs some refining. -
08-14-2019, 01:41 AMForever_LearningBelieve it or not -that's why I prefer this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
I like that rewards are cosmetic because it makes it feel un-mandatory. You do them for the challenge, bragging rights, and being able to look cool.
It's also quite difficult to appease a crowd that in one breath complains about the lack of end-game content and how quickly it is done, but then complain when a piece of end-game content takes too long.
No. Incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
The thread is about the lack of end-game content - content that can only be done on a max level toon, which in this case would be things you can only do at level 80.
There is plenty of content, there is plenty to do.
There isn't much end-game content, which is fine with me, and is something that attracts me to this game in the first place. -
08-14-2019, 01:43 AMjameseoakesWhich is why they also give tokens, I still don't see why you'd want to remove the tome currency. Currently the hardest content does reward the best gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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08-14-2019, 01:43 AMNora_of_MiraIt's a false rumor you're being punished for not being in a static. You can win all of the gear in a single run if you're lucky enough, just like everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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08-14-2019, 01:43 AMAvraymYou make it sound like Savage is difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
460 gear is really powerful considering how easily its handed to you. -
08-14-2019, 01:46 AMjameseoakesWhy does that matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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08-14-2019, 01:46 AMgalbsadiThings to note here, though:Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
1.) Goetia wasn't really a cap set as much as a starter set. Anybody who was even remotely serious about Savage raiding had at least 6 pieces above what Goetia gives before Savage even dropped (that'd be 4 accessories from Innocence, one weapon from Titania, and at least one piece from Eden normal). Others even at the midcore level had more still (example: I was ilvl 450 before entering Savage the first time [Goetia is 440 {technically 439 b/c you can't have two 440 rings}]). (Mind you, I'm *not* a hardcore raider [did that back in WoW during Wrath, and did not enjoy it]...but I'm also not going to be the one holding my group back if I can help it.)
2.) Several pieces of BiS aren't Phantasmagoria (for me personally, 7 pieces are Edengrace).
3.) Until patch 5.1 drops, all 470 gear requires savage raids, even phantasmagoria pieces (which are only 460 without the upgrade pieces from savage). That is by definition greater rewards for greater achievements. -
08-14-2019, 01:47 AMAvraymThe chances of winning "all of the gear" is extremely remote and unrealistic. You're actually LESS likely to win anything with the current system giving you a 1/8 1/8 1/8 chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira
If i have to explain to you why its much easier and faster to gear with a static than pugs with the current system, I know i'm already wasting my time. -
08-14-2019, 01:50 AMgalbsadiI'd actually argue the current system favors pugs over statics, tbh...but that's probably because I'm a healer that knows most static groups, knowing that the current system means all gear is good for all roles....can now favor DPS (who are more likely to lead to faster clears and skipped mechanics) over myself (whereas my DPS, even if I somehow parse 100th percentile...is quite frankly less than a gray parse from any DPS). By comparison, PUGs allow me to roll (and win) gear without waiting for at least 4/8 (and realistically 6/8) people to already have that slot covered. (Example: we didn't have static loot rules due to a PUG last week, and I now have a piece of gear I wouldn't have for at least another month otherwise.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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08-14-2019, 01:50 AMNarielIts not that strong for what they're used for, you can get all the gear you want if you don't have the skill/motivation to face the harder challenge (wich can be done mostly with i350 pentameld anyway) they're just a comfort goal like any other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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08-14-2019, 01:52 AMAvraymYou don't need to be hardcore to have had Titania Weapon, Innocence Drops and Geotia before Savage drops. I'm not a hardcore raider or anything, but I well and truly had BiS pre savage. I think your standards are a bit low given how friendly Extremes are to pick up and play through.Quote:
Originally Posted by galbsadi
I didn't say ALL, i just said a LOT. In SMN/RDM case, 6 to be exact. Thats almost 50% of your equipment.
I do like how they require Eden Savage to reach their full potential however. -
08-14-2019, 01:59 AMgalbsadiI was saying "anybody remotely serious" had this...and you're proving my point. Like me, you're also not a hardcore raider, but also had BiS pre-savage. That was literally my point...it was that easy, and Goetia was more a starting point than anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
That's where requiring savage to upgrade it comes into play. It's also a good thing that it's not entirely directly from Savage drops, or certain players (read: healers like me) would barely be getting our BiS when alliance raids came out (if we were lucky). This is especially true with the new coffer system (that means all healer/tank pieces are also DPS pieces too).Quote:
I didn't say ALL, i just said a LOT. In SMN/RDM case, 6 to be exact. Thats almost 50% of your equipment.
And been this way literally as long as I can remember. It was this way all throughout Stormblood, I believe it was this way during HW (didn't play, can't confirm myself), and it was (albeit in a different way) this way in ARR as well (with tomestone gear at lv70 when I played then, AR gear [we had one alliance raid, LotA] at 80, and Bahamut gear at 90). SE's been good about this formula, I trust them to continue with it.Quote:
I do like how they require Eden Savage to reach their full potential however.
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08-14-2019, 02:04 AMNora_of_Mirathat depends if the static is prioritizing people with their BiS gear before others, like mine is. DPS are getting their drops first, then tanks/heals. The other static in my FC isnt doing this and letting everyone free roll on everything. its just a different preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
if you're referring to it being "easier and faster to gear" in statics just bc its the same people each time, hence faster clears and more loot....well yeah, that goes w/o saying. but the actual drop rate of the gear overall favors the player more now than it did before. people already mathed it out. -
08-14-2019, 02:05 AMValkyrie_LennethTome upgrade items in raids have been a thing since 2nd coil. The only set that wasn't upgradeable was the mythology gear, which had an equal ilvl of i90 to the binding coil gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by galbsadi
Every tome set after that required drops from Savage raids (or the only raids in the case of coil) -
08-14-2019, 02:28 AMSaberMaxwellLet's say I wanted a tank ring from Alphascape, then. There's a 1/2 chance in getting it if it drops since you're rolling against another tank. Easy. Two chests drop, though, with a chance to drop any ring from any type, and let's assume that a ring will definitely drop, so 1/5. Your chances are then 1/10 to get a ring whatsoever, which are already worse odds than trying to go 1/8 for your ring in Edengate. Yoshida brought this up as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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08-14-2019, 02:33 AMLunaviIsn’t this more proof that most people who run high end content actually does not want to But sees it as mandatory due to all relevant rewards being locked behind it? And wouldn’t designing a game in such manner to force people to do things they inheritly feels is a bother be poor game design?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
I know there is such a thing as ”respecting ones time”, and to be fair, I like the current system as it promotes raiders to sell runs and be a more active part of the economy. However, if almost no one likes the system, why design the game in such a way that the only relevant progress you can do as battle classes is through said system that either demands a static or a boatload of time each week to play the PUG roulette until you hit a party of 7 people who can do the content?
I actually think that due to How expensive hard to get mounts are that people who actually enjoys the content would actually be HEAVILY inclined to grind savage, or maybe even untilate, for a mount. -
08-14-2019, 02:36 AMNarielNo one like the system and still the game grow in number of active player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunavi
You mean, like the one we already get on the 4th floor of every savage raids so far ? -
08-14-2019, 02:47 AMAvraymQ28:Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Due to the loot changes in Eden (Savage), we're seeing disagreements between pickup groups over the loot. For someone like me without a static, I'm worried that I won't be able get any gear aside from exchange items. Do you have any plans to adjust the loot system?
A28:
On the other hand, there’s also the chance that you win all the loot, so it’s quite difficult. In terms of sheer probability, the current system should come out on top. I think it’s at least better than having items drop for a role no one plays, so I think for now I’d like to leave things as is.
"The current system should come out on top". You get just as many chests running it in a static, and statics are more likely to pass on loot they dont need. The current system favours you in a pug if you are lucky and still want other loot for your other classes. But no, it doesn't put you on top if you are gearing your main. Its very very basic math. -
08-14-2019, 02:51 AMSaberMaxwellThe quote goes on:Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
"Also, regarding unlucky people who can't win rolls, if you were unlucky the gear for your job probably wouldn't have dropped anyway *laughs*"
I also detailed said "very basic math." Assuming a ring will always drop (it won't), you're fighting another tank for it (1/2) and there's a 1/5 chance the ring that drops will be a tank ring. In the 20% of scenarios the ring drops, 50% of those will result in your winning it...or a 10% (1/10) chance. -
08-14-2019, 02:54 AMLunaviIt was a point in response to people not doing ultimate content because there are no rewards behind it. I actually like the system as is, But if people do not run stuff, maybe it is because they do not enjoy running it? Eureka actually had great rewards, and still has, from a gil earning peespecrive, yet very few run it because they hate that piece of content, same with crafting. Crafting actually has very great rewards at the end of the road, still few does it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
Meanwhile, the jumping tower in the summer event has literally Zero rewards attached to it, and yet people STILL spend HOURS to get to the top of that tower for literally no return.
To make a point that BiS needs to be exclusively locked behind savage because otherwise there is no reason to it is a silly one to me. People will play content they like even if the rewards are just bragging rights. I do think it needs to be so for game economical reasons though as otherwise raiding would just eat of people’s resources through things like food and pots and crafted gear while never generating something back, but that is an entirely different topic. -
08-14-2019, 02:56 AMAvraymCan we do the math for DPS mains now?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
For example, I main Summoner. It is very unlikely there will be another Disiciple of Magic to compete with in the current ideal party format.
What are my chances then? -
08-14-2019, 03:00 AMNora_of_Mirafrom reddit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
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dragonx254: Yeah you have to roll against 7 other people, but before, you might not have been able to roll at ALL because the piece that dropped wasn't for you.
With Fending, Maiming, Scouting, Striking, Aiming, Casting, Healing, you only had a 14% chance to even see a relevant gear piece drop. And then unless you are the only DPS of the same gear type, then you still have to roll against at least one other person. So your overall odds were 7%.
This is compared to the 12.5% guaranteed chance every week to get something.
Your odds have only improved.
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08-14-2019, 03:01 AMSaberMaxwellSure. If we're talking accessories:Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraym
Slaying: Between 1/5 and 1/10. NIN pending.
Aiming: Between 1/5 and 1/15 chance, NIN / double range pending (several people ran NIN/BRD/MCH).
Casting: 1/5, usually we don't see double caster.
Beyond that?
Striking: 1/7, possibly 1/14 depending if you're rolling against a SAM as a MNK. This is pug, this is possible.
Maiming: 1/7. DRG are special snowflakes who share gear with nobody.
Casting: 1/7. Again usually no double caster.
Aiming: 1/7 to 1/14; a lot of people ran double ranged.
Scouting: 1/7. Ninjas are special snowflakes. -
08-14-2019, 03:02 AMAvraym
Why are ya'll bringing up the old raid loot system?
I never even said i prefered it lol.
Just that the current one is problematic (which it is).
All i said is that you will gear faster with a static than a pug with the current system (which you will). -
08-14-2019, 03:03 AMNarielOh my bad then, maybe too much on the edge :b.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunavi
If the content is fun people will do it, I totaly advocate for this, even when the reward may seems clumsy. Just, recently how many people endure dozens of CT/LotA for barely visible namazu earring. Savage is nice as it is reward wise, challenging content that offer a bit better stuff is logic. I'm pretty satisfied with the reward overall, I don't like savage and don't miss the stuff, I can still farm mount unsynch later anyway. My only regret is the relic in eureka, that is something I can't bear and will fight to death to get it out.
Ultimate could use a mount that said, even a ridiculously one, bahamut mount, ultima mount is over the top but hey its an over the top challenge anyway.