"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

ok you got me. Apologies if this comes out twice. I deleted the wrong post.

129 Pages for something that doesn't impact anyone's gameplay. Doesn't matter who's running ahead, the tank just does what they do every dungeon, which is hold W and press their AoE button.

If a healer can't handle W2W pulls, then that's not a DPS pulling ahead issue, that's a healer/tank issue.

I hold W as a healer and pull mobs if tank is behind me, it doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter if a tank pulls a YPYT, because healers are Gods.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

129 Pages for something that doesn't impact anyone's gameplay. Doesn't matter who's running ahead, the tank just does what they do every dungeon, which is hold W and press their AoE button.

If a healer can't handle W2W pulls, then that's not a DPS pulling ahead issue, that's a healer/tank issue.

I hold W as a healer and pull mobs if tank is behind me, it doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter if a tank pulls a YPYT, because healers are Gods.

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Well that's a waste of Swiftcast if I ever saw one.
Unless there are other ways that do not require you to stop.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

129 Pages for something that doesn't impact anyone's gameplay. Doesn't matter who's running ahead, the tank just does what they do every dungeon, which is hold W and press their AoE button.

If a healer can't handle W2W pulls, then that's not a DPS pulling ahead issue, that's a healer/tank issue.

I hold W as a healer and pull mobs if tank is behind me, it doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter if a tank pulls a YPYT, because healers are Gods.

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I have lost track of how many of these inconsequential wipes I have had to walk back from. As it happens it was twice today with a lowbie tank I am levelling.

If someone else pulled before the tank pull, unless they are running off all over the place, the tank should be able to hit the mobs with 1~2 AoE GCDs and get back the enmity.

If the group ends up wiping because of pulling too much (from getting back the enmity etc.), it could be because of the gear issues during levelling and we all had that at some point (ignoring skill issues since it's a different problem when levelling), in that case you can communicate in the chat and try asking them to not pull ahead, they should be able to understand that if w2w pulls lead to wiping, single pulls would be faster, if they just want to troll anyway after asking, you could write a report.

At the end of the day, it isn't that hard to communicate in the chat, something like "How about we pull more/less?" or "Please don't pull ahead of me since I am still learning" or so.




But I suppose the mentality of "You Pull You Tank" is about 'punishing the player whom dare to pull ahead of me the absolute group leader' thing so what I have said above probably means nothing to them.

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Originally Posted by Chajii

If the group ends up wiping because of pulling too much (from getting back the enmity etc.), it could be because of the gear issues during levelling and we all had that at some point (ignoring skill issues since it's a different problem when levelling), in that case you can communicate in the chat and try asking them to not pull ahead, they should be able to understand that if w2w pulls lead to wiping, single pulls would be faster, if they just want to troll anyway after asking, you could write a report.

At the end of the day, it isn't that hard to communicate in the chat, something like "How about we pull more/less?" or "Please don't pull ahead of me since I am still learning" or so.

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Nuh uh, that just means the tank is toxic and we should kick them for not being FASTER!

(This is satire.)

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

129 Pages for something that doesn't impact anyone's gameplay. Doesn't matter who's running ahead, the tank just does what they do every dungeon, which is hold W and press their AoE button.

If a healer can't handle W2W pulls, then that's not a DPS pulling ahead issue, that's a healer/tank issue.

I hold W as a healer and pull mobs if tank is behind me, it doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter if a tank pulls a YPYT, because healers are Gods.

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Then please by all means post a video of you doing W2W pull as a Healer on the latest dungeon and keeping yourself alive during it. If "healers are gods"

You can't and you won't.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Then please by all means post a video of you doing W2W pull as a Healer on the latest dungeon and keeping yourself alive during it. If "healers are gods"

You can't and you won't.

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Shoot, I'll do it. I'll be back in a little bit my friends in Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Chajii

If the group ends up wiping because of pulling too much (from getting back the enmity etc.), it could be because of the gear issues during levelling <snip>

At the end of the day, it isn't that hard to communicate in the chat, something like "How about we pull more/less?" or "Please don't pull ahead of me since I am still learning" or so.

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Not with Dzemael Darkhold, and the frogs. Also, in terms of communication, some tanks do ask, and then people ignore that.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Then please by all means post a video of you doing W2W pull as a Healer on the latest dungeon and keeping yourself alive during it. If "healers are gods"

You can't and you won't.

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Yeah that's stretching it. I did manage to get two DPS through almost all of Yuwuwueyatawhatever Field Station as a sage because the tank kept disconnecting and then we just never got a new one, but after one supremely spicy wall to wall pull we decided to go a little slower. The last boss was a lot of fun though. Definitely had to pull out all the healing stops.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

Not with Dzemael Darkhold, and the frogs. Also, in terms of communication, some tanks do ask, and then people ignore that.

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Yeah it's pretty sad when the player base doesn't really care that you're learning. They want you to pull big and go fast either way. Because fuck your feelings I guess.

I don’t really see how pulling small is actually teaching anything because it doesn’t give any space for a mistake to actually be made

How your mitigation responds to larger packs, the correct way to layer stronger longer mitigation with shorter weaker mitigation, how to capture rogue enemies hitting a player who is panicking, how mitigation that relies on different interactions works (such as enemies having to hit you to activate arms length)

All of that is taught to you by pulling larger than a pull that eos can solo heal while the SCH /follow’s you. There is nothing to learn in a small pull; other than maybe how angry you can make your healer as by and large pull size affects the healer not the tank

Friend of mine tried tanking at the very start with one friend and randoms, things went wrong apparently. He has had an aversion to it ever since. However from my experience learning it, having a healer encourage me to go big, going "Go go go! Murder", is probably much better than any other way of communication, or simply ignoring a tank and just acting without any communication. I disagree that there is nothing to learn in a small pull. You still have to learn how to tank, how to select a specific target if it's not aggroed to you, etc. If what you say was the case, my friend would not have been embarrassed by whatever happened when he tried tanking as his first class. (He lost control it seemed, and my other friend was busy but was being called to try to help)

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

Friend of mine tried tanking at the very start with one friend and randoms, things went wrong apparently. He has had an aversion to it ever since. However from my experience learning it, having a healer encourage me to go big, going "Go go go! Murder", is probably much better than any other way of communication, or simply ignoring a tank and just acting without any communication. I disagree that there is nothing to learn in a small pull. You still have to learn how to tank, how to select a specific target if it's not aggroed to you, etc. If what you say was the case, my friend would not have been embarrassed by whatever happened when he tried tanking as his first class. (He lost control it seemed, and my other friend was busy but was being called to try to help)

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You don't learn with small pulls. You don't have to use mitigation and it's very hard to not get aggro to like, 3 mobs. And at that point, even the sch's fairy can keep the tank alive single handedly without any issue. As for your friend, it's hard to say without having saw it. But maybe they didn't put their stance on and that's why they had so much trouble. But then again, that wouldn't be an issue of pull number but an issue of not having read their tooltips.

my favorite thing to do while ive been leveling ninja is run really far ahead and grab everything with kunai and dash back to my group. so fun.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

You don't learn with small pulls. You don't have to use mitigation and it's very hard to not get aggro to like, 3 mobs. And at that point, even the sch's fairy can keep the tank alive single handedly without any issue. As for your friend, it's hard to say without having saw it. But maybe they didn't put their stance on and that's why they had so much trouble. But then again, that wouldn't be an issue of pull number but an issue of not having read their tooltips.

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I think the thing is for beginners, we wouldn't know either way. However, I think if anyone wants a beginner to try something out of their comfort zone, I think positive encouragement is probably the best bet. Sure, I know now that pulling big is certainly doable, but a tank in their first dungeon might not. Of course I understand if they keep doing it, then it's already time for them to break out of their shell. (Plus personally, I practiced all that in duty supports to gain confidence, and then only ran things with premade) [I am thankful for duty support, only reason why I can confidently tank in this game, in WoW, I only tanked once because I do not have that opportunity to practice myself there]

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

I think the thing is for beginners, we wouldn't know either way. However, I think if anyone wants a beginner to try something out of their comfort zone, I think positive encouragement is probably the best bet. Sure, I know now that pulling big is certainly doable, but a tank in their first dungeon might not. Of course I understand if they keep doing it, then it's already time for them to break out of their shell. (Plus personally, I practiced all that in duty supports to gain confidence, and then only ran things with premade) [I am thankful for duty support, only reason why I can confidently tank in this game, in WoW, I only tanked once because I do not have that opportunity to practice myself there]

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Sure, it's totally understandable for a low-level tank to not wallpull in pre-50 dungeons. Past 50 however, dungeons become easier enough and jobs have more than enough tools to handle wallpull without any issues. As for the topic of the thread, YPYT isn't usually an issue of not being comfortable enough to do it but a lot more often is an issue of ego like "I'm the leader of the group and nobody but me has the right to pull".

On the topic of YPYT:

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Originally Posted by syldon

It is not appropriate for a PUG dps to pull mobs, without prior arrangement in place. For this to be an offence which causes exclusion, then you would have to show where it declares this as reasonable.

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I think DPS having arms length shows it can be reasonable for DPS to pull. I think a tank turning off their stance or just having that mentality in any way, is griefing. However I also do think DPS pulling ahead, without bringing the mobs back to the tank is also a form of griefing. I think what matters here is team work. If it helps make the dungeon go smoothly, then I think it is fine. Healer rescuing tank into mobs when sprint is down? Totally fine, stuff like that. White mage using holy very early before mobs are grouped up tight? Not as helpful.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

On the topic of YPYT:



I think DPS having arms length shows it can be reasonable for DPS to pull. I think a tank turning off their stance or just having that mentality in any way, is griefing. However I also do think DPS pulling ahead, without bringing the mobs back to the tank is also a form of griefing. I think what matters here is team work. If it helps make the dungeon go smoothly, then I think it is fine. Healer rescuing tank into mobs when sprint is down? Totally fine, stuff like that. White mage using holy very early before mobs are grouped up tight? Not as helpful.

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I just love how you're just completely justifying what so many people hate in this topic and when it comes to tanking in general.

It doesn't matter if you have arms length, don't pull for the tank.

If you want the dungeon to go smoothly, then let the tank pull simple as that. Don't run ahead pop arms length and then run it back to the tank.

As a Healer don't run ahead and then use rescue to pull a time to get them to go faster even if Sprint is down. Nobody likes being rushed.


Everything you said here basically falls under griefing.

I really hope the devs and GM's read these forum posts because I think they honestly need to increase the punishment for stuff like this since so many people here don't think making things difficult for others is a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Everything you said here basically falls under griefing.

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What should a DPS arms length be used for then? I will admit though being rushed will never feel good. I personally would not do that myself. Yet I also don't see it as something to 'punish'. However at the same time, when I tank, if I see a healer's mana low, I will wait for them.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

What should a DPS arms length be used for then? I will admit though being rushed will never feel good. I personally would not do that myself. Yet I also don't see it as something to 'punish'. However at the same time, when I tank, if I see a healer's mana low, I will wait for them.

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DPS don't *only* do 4-mans and raids. You can use it in deep dungeons and in FATEs. Deep dungeons are a great place to use all those skills like Leg Graze and Sleep.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

I just love how you're just completely justifying what so many people hate in this topic and when it comes to tanking in general.

It doesn't matter if you have arms length, don't pull for the tank.

If you want the dungeon to go smoothly, then let the tank pull simple as that. Don't run ahead pop arms length and then run it back to the tank.

As a Healer don't run ahead and then use rescue to pull a time to get them to go faster even if Sprint is down. Nobody likes being rushed.


Everything you said here basically falls under griefing.

I really hope the devs and GM's read these forum posts because I think they honestly need to increase the punishment for stuff like this since so many people here don't think making things difficult for others is a big deal.

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Pulling ahead and bringing them to the tank makes nothing more difficult. You're pretty much what I said about ego.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

What should a DPS arms length be used for then? I will admit though being rushed will never feel good. I personally would not do that myself. Yet I also don't see it as something to 'punish'. However at the same time, when I tank, if I see a healer's mana low, I will wait for them.

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Arm's length for a dps should be used to block pull and push effects from a boss.

For a tank it should be used for the same thing, and for slowing mobs on big pulls.

It is punishing because you're pressuring the tank to go at the speed that you want and some people don't like that which is why it it falls under griefing. I understand that people want tanks to go faster, but let them pull and do their job. If Sprint is down, then it's down and there's no much you can do about it. In reality when you sprint and finish off the first 2 packs in a dungeon, sprint should be ready for the next 2 packs. If someone uses it wrong, then you have no choice but to wait.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

Pulling ahead and bringing them to the tank makes nothing more difficult. You're pretty much what I said about ego.

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You get a dead dps is what you get. And made the run slower because you decided to be stupid. And you're pretty much what i mean when I said "people don't think doing things more difficult for others is a big deal"

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

You get a dead dps is what you get. And made the run slower because you decided to be stupid. And you're pretty much what i mean when I said "people don't think doing things more difficult for others is a big deal"

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If the DPS died for having done a single pull, it's a 100% because the tank and the healer deliberately let them die, which is a lot more griefing than pulling ahead of the tank. Again, if doing that makes thing THAT much more difficult for a tank past level 50, maybe that tank should consider either using Trust a bunch to practice or changing role.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

If the DPS died for having done a single pull, it's a 100% because the tank and the healer deliberately let them die, which is a lot more griefing than pulling ahead of the tank. Again, if doing that makes thing THAT much more difficult for a tank past level 50, maybe that tank should consider either using Trust a bunch to practice or changing role.

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A DPS would not pull one at a time. They would try to pull both groups back to the tank. But I digress. if you don't think it's such a big deal that's perfectly fine. But if you pull this kind of stuff in dungeons then you're going to get pulled by a GM because somebody didn't appreciate what you were doing.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

A DPS would not pull one at a time. They would try to pull both groups back to the tank. But I digress. if you don't think it's such a big deal that's perfectly fine. But if you pull this kind of stuff in dungeons then you're going to get pulled by a GM because somebody didn't appreciate what you were doing.

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The tank would have to be crawling or have forgotten they accepted the queue pop for a DPS to get so far ahead that they could pull two groups back.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

A DPS would not pull one at a time. They would try to pull both groups back to the tank. But I digress. if you don't think it's such a big deal that's perfectly fine. But if you pull this kind of stuff in dungeons then you're going to get pulled by a GM because somebody didn't appreciate what you were doing.

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And if the tank gets the habit of letting mates die because they refuse to take aggro, the tank is also gonna be pulled by a GM at some point. And I pretty much agree with Astronis, I don't know what kind of tank you're playing with for the DPS to get so far ahead that they pull both pack before the tank gets the chance to do anything. The only "valid" case I could think of is if the tank is AFK and in that case, sure, it's pretty stupid to go ahead alone and pull everything.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

And if the tank gets the habit of letting mates die because they refuse to take aggro, the tank is also gonna be pulled by a GM at some point. And I pretty much agree with Astronis, I don't know what kind of tank you're playing with for the DPS to get so far ahead that they pull both pack before the tank gets the chance to do anything. The only "valid" case I could think of is if the tank is AFK and in that case, sure, it's pretty stupid to go ahead alone and pull everything.

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So we just admitting we send malicious reports out here.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Then please by all means post a video of you doing W2W pull as a Healer on the latest dungeon and keeping yourself alive during it. If "healers are gods"

You can't and you won't.

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Ironically enough the closer you are to lv100, it gets easier to W2W without tanks as healers. Healing a 1H/3D dungeon runs are pretty fun where aggros are ping-pong'ing. A lot buttons that I almost never see its uses... finally gets their use in these cases. Deaths? Sure, more likely, but it doesn't take much to prevent those from first place.

If you want to hand out the "mission impossible"-challenges, probably pick dungeons like Bardam's Mettle, Stone Vigil, or even Mt.Gulg. Which hey, if you need to pick a dungeon selectively for this, it just shows how little the punishment there is for non-tanks to pull everywhere else; it's what 'encourages' people to pull for tanks from first place. If you want that gone, then like I've said before, resources has to be more scarce. Tanks has to be squishier/less of an immortal. Mobs needs to pummel harder. etc.

Until that happens, non-tanks pulling ahead will remain a thing - they even encourage this indirectly by designing it in a way that's impossible to overpull in modern times.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

I think the thing is for beginners, we wouldn't know either way. However, I think if anyone wants a beginner to try something out of their comfort zone, I think positive encouragement is probably the best bet. Sure, I know now that pulling big is certainly doable, but a tank in their first dungeon might not. Of course I understand if they keep doing it, then it's already time for them to break out of their shell[...]

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There's also the fact there's only one tank in every dungeon, and dungeons are the most abundant in this game. If a person starting out as a tank, chances are good they will NOT see another tank's performances. That greatly diminishes the "learning by watching"-aspect of an MMO. Some of these tanks never realize how much the devs are essentially making tanks semi-immortals in these contents way past 50 up till capstones until they start leveling another role, watch another go do W2W so seamlessly and be like "Omg you can do that???". I've had somebody back in EW who never thought to treat WAR's RI/BW as a self benediction in W2W specifically rather than 'another layer of mit' (I cringe everytime I see WARs popping BW on top of any other cds at all in W2W), which is usually the reason why even today there are still WARs failing to sustain themselves in the event their healer is gone for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

So we just admitting we send malicious reports out here.

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Meh, I used the report system maybe a handful of times since I started playing and it was not for such a thing. I was mostly answering their claim that DPS pulling ahead of tanks is griefing but somehow tanks refusing to do the very basics of their role isn't. And yes, a tank with the YPYT mentality is a lot more likely to receive a warning than a DPS running ahead of them.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

And if the tank gets the habit of letting mates die because they refuse to take aggro, the tank is also gonna be pulled by a GM at some point. And I pretty much agree with Astronis, I don't know what kind of tank you're playing with for the DPS to get so far ahead that they pull both pack before the tank gets the chance to do anything. The only "valid" case I could think of is if the tank is AFK and in that case, sure, it's pretty stupid to go ahead alone and pull everything.

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A dancer can routinely do that. Ninja too.

It's actually optimal for them to pull both packs because they can apply arm's length.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Nobody likes being rushed.

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Nobody likes being held back either?????

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

I just love how you're just completely justifying what so many people hate in this topic and when it comes to tanking in general.

It doesn't matter if you have arms length, don't pull for the tank.

If you want the dungeon to go smoothly, then let the tank pull simple as that. Don't run ahead pop arms length and then run it back to the tank.

As a Healer don't run ahead and then use rescue to pull a time to get them to go faster even if Sprint is down. Nobody likes being rushed.


Everything you said here basically falls under griefing.

I really hope the devs and GM's read these forum posts because I think they honestly need to increase the punishment for stuff like this since so many people here don't think making things difficult for others is a big deal.

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I like how this is literally just a list of everything that would make me more likely to comm a DPS when I’m the tank

wouldnt the first thing going through your head be: 'oh no i'm too slow for this group. time to move a bit faster.'

instead of letting people die.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

wouldnt the first thing going through your head be: 'oh no i'm too slow for this group. time to move a bit faster.'

instead of letting people die.

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No I'd just leave if I'm getting annoyed.

I don't have to explain anything.

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Originally Posted by syldon

I have lost track of how many of these inconsequential wipes I have had to walk back from. As it happens it was twice today with a lowbie tank I am levelling.

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Then that's a tank issue, and I guess you need to ask them to single pull?

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Well that's a waste of Swiftcast if I ever saw one.
Unless there are other ways that do not require you to stop.

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Idk what this even means? You don't need to swiftcast in a dungeon if you're a good healer.

If a tank is moving forward and hitting their AoE, which is what tanks are supposed to do, and do every dungeon .. then how would you need to res anyone besides a tank that you couldn't heal?

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Then please by all means post a video of you doing W2W pull as a Healer on the latest dungeon and keeping yourself alive during it. If "healers are gods"

You can't and you won't.

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This is quite a self-own if you think that's impossible LOL

I'm not going to post videos for you, little man. See you in roulettes I guess?

I am also confused by "waste of Swift" comment, I am always using Swift pre-pulls to slap down a Spreadlo focused on the Tank, so the Tank gets the big shield and the DPS feel comfortable standing in bad during the pull as to not lose damage avoiding AoEs, if it is level 94+ content, it will be back before the pull is over, it's no big deal.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Idk what this even means? You don't need to swiftcast in a dungeon if you're a good healer.

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It's useful for SCH specifically for the reason I mentioned, as the other option is to lag behind a little to cast Adlo, you don't really need it, what I do can be considered unnecessary in an absolute sense, but it feels like the best use of it, a skill off CD is a skill wasted, after all.