What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

New World a Wild West,steam punk theme setting,Gun Slinger class(yes please, I am a Wild Arms fan lol). That would be pretty awesome if that happen.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I was disappointed Ishgard became a republic. I suppose there wasn't any other way to go about it though since the collapse of the church and they didn't have a monarchy.

As for the New World, it might have some possibilities if they did a Wild West theme, perhaps with steampunk. Machinist being the obvious choice for featured class. I know the woke crowd is already up in arms about any depiction of colonialism, but I don't see why it has to mirror American history which, IMO, is not particularly interesting. They already sort of did a Central Americas theme with the Ronkan Empire and, frankly, as a WoW refugee I'm tired of that aesthetic since it is prominent among the troll races. I'd rather they do something completely new. It's a fantasy video game, the options are limitless, content doesn't have to be based on real world history (and I'd prefer it not).

My main concern with Meracydia is it being HW 2.0 except with dragons vs. Allagan descendants. I loved HW, but am not all that interested in a similar story with a different skin.

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I do not believe a dominant wild west theme would appeal to the Final Fantasy audience, but it admittedly has a higher chance of success compared to a dominant tribal Central American theme. "Wild west" balanced with more of the Neo-Ishgardian steampunk style is something I would at least be mildly interested in, but it is still a long ways away from what I believe makes up the core of Final Fantasy.

I will not speak in great detail as to the plot I wrote for the 7.0 concept thread coming later-only that it is not a very clear-cut "dragons vs. allagan descendants" situation. Dragons are there, of course, but I would not say they are as an overwhelming focus as they were in Heavensward.

I tried to flesh out the 7.0 setting to a reasonable degree, and I can say securely that I veered away from more tiring elements. While it is on the scale of Heavensward, I also wove in elements that would serve as a basis for an overarching season 2 plot that would take center stage after 7.0.

Well, there is Monster Hunter World which they could always draw upon for inspiration for the New World...

It probably won't happen, but I'd think it hysterical if part of the next involves the wol of going "Okay I've saved the world what the hell do i do now?" then inadvertently leaving a trail of chaos in there wake while trying to answer that question. they try going back to being an adventurer but case some kind of bidding war or people panic since there's no way the wol would go somewhere to solve a mundane problem. Then they try finding rare items for people are way to successful casing several markets to crash (tataru was really unhappy with us for that one) etc. and during all of this our character is expecting to just walk by Zenos drinking tea in café or something

Jeez, I made the mistake of peering at /r/ffxiv and instantly saw people praising Emet's Ultima Thule scene and how it made them cry.

Personally the only reason why it might have made me cry was watching Emet not even being mad at Venat for everything, and going yass queen we dumb Ancients could have never figured this out.

Also I found his line about "I bid you remember, yet it was us who had forgotten" to sound kind of apologetic? But like, dw Emet that's not your fault at all, you couldn't really help it if one crazy dude had a convenient memory-wipe machine and his co-conspirator never told you the truth and just let you toil and suffer for 12,000 years.

I'm not over FFXIV social media yet, let me stay in this bubble some more.

Honestly? It's a real turn off for me. I'm all for people not being unfeeling constructs but over the last decade or so it really seems like the bar has been set so low that a bit of sad music will play and a character will look upset and that will be mistaken as excellent storytelling.

Arguably because many consumers are a bit too prone to turning on the waterworks in response to every little thing. Even if what is supposedly 'sad' doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You're absolutely right in that Venat should have been given a very scathing lecture (even if she wasn't there at the time to receive it).

Something that annoys me is that the potential for genuinely saddening moments is often overlooked. I'm still salty that we never got to see Varis' reaction to Regula's demise. The pair were friends since childhood which is decades ago - and to me that's a far more tragic loss than Haurchefant. A guy we knew for, what? A few weeks or months at most? To say nothing of the simple fact that it's also arguably up in the air as to whether he threw himself into danger because he was a genuinely good person or because - particularly in the Japanese localisation - he was utterly obsessed with the player character to a rather creepy degree!

I am honestly salty about everything Varis. Just when he was gearing up to step into the spotlight he was offed by a worse character. He deserved better.
It did make for an interesting setting in EW Garlemald as I found it to be the best part of MSQ in retrospect (sorry Elpis but IMO you jumped the shark so hard even Mitron would think that was over the top), and yes admittedly I credit Jullus with being the first EW character to make me break down in tears, but I still think of what Garlemald could have been.

I can picture the entire fanbase crying at everything in Ultima Thule. Though personally the one part that did make me cry was the Ea. Staying home waiting to dissolve into a puddle, barely remembering how to function and do social things again, just kind of hit way too close from home for me.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Jeez, I made the mistake of peering at /r/ffxiv and instantly saw people praising Emet's Ultima Thule scene and how it made them cry.

Personally the only reason why it might have made me cry was watching Emet not even being mad at Venat for everything, and going yass queen we dumb Ancients could have never figured this out.

Also I found his line about "I bid you remember, yet it was us who had forgotten" to sound kind of apologetic? But like, dw Emet that's not your fault at all, you couldn't really help it if one crazy dude had a convenient memory-wipe machine and his co-conspirator never told you the truth and just let you toil and suffer for 12,000 years.

I'm not over FFXIV social media yet, let me stay in this bubble some more.

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As Emet fan, 100% this. I cried during the conclusion of Elpis when I realized we can't save him and Hytlo. But in Ultima Thule? I feel it was a disrespect actually by making HIM, out of everyone, to validate Venat's decision. Like, really?? Can we please have one scene where the devs aren't bashing our head with "See? See?? Venat is the right one". I just sit there dumbfounded for a while and went "F that". And I get even more salty that we don't even get the option to say farewell and call his real name, meanwhile we have the option to do so for both Hermes and Venat.

Other people have mentioned it before; but yeah, this game attempted to present morally gray story/point of view, yet at the same time isn't brave enough to commit to the idea that the protagonist side isn't that much different from the "bad guy".

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Originally Posted by Kozh

As Emet fan, 100% this. I cried during the conclusion of Elpis when I realized we can't save him and Hytlo. But in Ultima Thule? I feel it was a disrespect actually by making HIM, out of everyone, to validate Venat's decision. Like, really?? Can we please have one scene where the devs aren't bashing our head with "See? See?? Venat is the right one". I just sit there dumbfounded for a while and went "F that". And I get even more salty that we don't even get the option to say farewell and call his real name, meanwhile we have the option to do so for both Hermes and Venat.

Other people have mentioned it before; but yeah, this game attempted to present morally gray story/point of view, yet at the same time isn't brave enough to commit to the idea that the protagonist side isn't that much different from the "bad guy".

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Ah but you see, I surmise we were meant to think of Hermes and Venat as "morally grey"... at the cost of throwing the Ancients under the bus narratively, of course.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

As Emet fan, 100% this. I cried during the conclusion of Elpis when I realized we can't save him and Hytlo. But in Ultima Thule? I feel it was a disrespect actually by making HIM, out of everyone, to validate Venat's decision. Like, really?? Can we please have one scene where the devs aren't bashing our head with "See? See?? Venat is the right one". I just sit there dumbfounded for a while and went "F that". And I get even more salty that we don't even get the option to say farewell and call his real name, meanwhile we have the option to do so for both Hermes and Venat.

Other people have mentioned it before; but yeah, this game attempted to present morally gray story/point of view, yet at the same time isn't brave enough to commit to the idea that the protagonist side isn't that much different from the "bad guy".

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At least it's not worded as badly in French (the part about "setting foot here"), but I agree, the scene is being used to try seal a "happy" ending for all of them (why Hermes should be included in that final art is beyond me), to the point that even anger which would be justified is being scrubbed away. His people are wiped out, his two close colleagues Lahabrea and Elidibus have lost their identity in what would be a vain struggle (since the time to fix it would've been much before but someone never told them because of supposed time travel shenanigans) and their souls denied their return to the Underworld, and having to play villain and go against the remnants of their close friend when they finally found them. As a method of bringing me to like her? It doesn't work, in fact it achieves the opposite. I'm not the type to cry and the Ultima Thule stuff did nothing for me beyond the plight of the dragons (there you could really see the tale of a species broken by senseless destruction.) By contrast, the Garlemald stuff with Jullus, Elidibus's fate and acceptance of it, and those wandering ancients around Zodiark? That stuff was much sadder.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

By contrast, the Garlemald stuff with Jullus, Elidibus's fate and acceptance of it, and those wandering ancients around Zodiark? That stuff was much sadder.

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I watched a friend go through the moon part after I did, and it hit especially hard in retrospect. At least they finally got to go back to the Underworld...

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Originally Posted by Kozh

As Emet fan, 100% this. I cried during the conclusion of Elpis when I realized we can't save him and Hytlo.

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Hey, maybe Dynamis could fix the timeline if we clap our hands and believe hard enough. Meteion is still there after all!

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Originally Posted by Kozh

As Emet fan, 100% this. I cried during the conclusion of Elpis when I realized we can't save him and Hytlo. But in Ultima Thule? I feel it was a disrespect actually by making HIM, out of everyone, to validate Venat's decision. Like, really?? Can we please have one scene where the devs aren't bashing our head with "See? See?? Venat is the right one". I just sit there dumbfounded for a while and went "F that". And I get even more salty that we don't even get the option to say farewell and call his real name, meanwhile we have the option to do so for both Hermes and Venat.

Other people have mentioned it before; but yeah, this game attempted to present morally gray story/point of view, yet at the same time isn't brave enough to commit to the idea that the protagonist side isn't that much different from the "bad guy".

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The characters “growth” in EW is quite disappointing. This is not the Emet-Selch I live in ShB. The Emet-Selch I know was determined, believe in his own course even have entire weight of the world on his shoulder he still believe in his path.

Elpis Emet-Selch have show such strong character but when we met him again in Ultima Thule, he is not the same. I would say Venat have the same issue, her character change to a very shallow in Ultima Thule.

Hermes is a poor written antagonist like a child throwing a tantrum, the meterion wrap up feel like writer want to throw a Six sense M. Night Shyamalan, but turn out to be a “lady in the water M. Night Shyamalan“

Writer try to build and wrap up all the story/plot base around the whole meterion/dynamis in one single expansion patch and all those “well build” characters got turn into shallow kindergarten writing at the very end of this patch

Well, I am a crier and I was a sobbing mess in both Elpis and Ultima Thule because of Emet and Hythlodaeus. Elpis was by far the worst because despite what Elidibus told us, both Venat and Hythlodaeus comment we may be able to change their fate. Coming off of an expansion where an alternate timeline was created to save the WoL, I felt it reasonable to believe Elpis was going to end similarly. Instead, we get this horrible bootstrap paradox time loop that is excused because bUt AlExAnDeR (which I've never done so my only knowledge of time travel was multiverse from the MSQ). The sheer anger I felt when Hermes whipped out Kairos, the most BS plot device ever. I cried when I realized the writers weren't going to let us save them.

Ultima Thule just felt like a big F-you. I still cried, of course, but I was also angry (again) because now Emet's being manipulated to further prop up Venat, a character I thoroughly hated by that point. The look he gives the WoL when he sees you're sad he's going to leave broke my heart not to mention the smile at the end. I'm still irritated that basically everyone but my favorite characters got a happy ending, even moreso when you realize the writers had to use them for emotional exploitation since they won't let anything happen to the protagonists. This was mostly true for ShB as well.

As for Venat being 'morally grey', once again Lurina said it best: "Venat's brief statement - immediately denied by Y'shtola - that she did something unkind does not offset the universal positivity in which she is framed by the characters, quest log dialogue, the aforementioned minion dialogue, and the range of responses given to the player character, all of which are unabashed in positivity towards her at all occasions. Regardless of whether they end up on our side or not, this is not a treatment that any other NPC who is intended to read as morally complicated (eg: Lolorito, Ysayle, Estinien, Regula, Yotsuyu, Emet, Elidibus, Fourchenault) gets."

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

Writer try to build and wrap up all the story/plot base around the whole meterion/dynamis in one single expansion patch and all those “well build” characters got turn into shallow kindergarten writing at the very end of this patch

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This is the crux of the problem IMO. To be frank, I kind of already had my doubts when they revealed early on in 2021 we would be dealing with Hydaelyn and Zodiark AND The Sound, because I thought it would have been 7.0 material. But I had kind of figured it might be resolved neatly as a consequence of Hydaelyn/Zodiark, maybe, somehow.

Ah, the slow-motion train crash that was the Endwalker reveal/teasers/eventual release for me. I kept huffing the copium throughout too.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The sheer anger I felt when Hermes whipped out Kairos, the most BS plot device ever.

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Haha I see I'm not the only one who got mad at the bullshit memory wipe machine. It was like a chain reaction of the plot going off the deep end for me. "Oh no, jfc, of course it's the goddamned machine they mentioned earlier... Oh no, they're not going to break it or stop it? ... Oh no she got on her dog and put a GPS tracker on the bird lmaoo ... Oh no Venat DIDN'T get her memory wiped??? ... OH NO Hythlo just mentioned they're going to remember once they die, after everything they've done they're going to remember this dumb-assery HAHA". I'm just picturing Emet and Hythlo meeting again in the Sea of Stars, looking blankly at each other then going "OH **** DUDE THE BIRD" "wHAT?? –– OH **** HERMES'S ****ING BIRD GIRL (LONG STRING OF EXPLETIVES)"

https://i.imgur.com/hiFNFXF.jpg

As an aside, although it still would have been difficult to resolve all of the specific story beats within the course of a single expansion I do think it would have been possible if so much time had not been spend on 'slice of life' scenes between the Scions or suddenly introducing new, never before seen plot points.

I must admit, I was expecting something a lot cooler than Meteion as the cause of the Final Days. I always figured that a good way to make Hydaelyn and Zodiark look better and potentially come together in the long term would be a third party entity to be responsible for the attempted destruction of Etheirys. Some sort of alien/creepy death deity would be a neat nod to the likes of Jenova and Lavos as well as tie in rather nicely with the sinister appearance of Terminus Beasts and Blasphemies.

Would it original? Not particularly - though I'd argue that a little girl being responsible for so much destruction in the story is even less original given that we literally had that same plot point play out during the Nier raids back in Shadowbringers. There's also a certain popular anime that ended recently and chose to attribute much of its story beats to the actions of a sad little girl.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Would it original? Not particularly - though I'd argue that a little girl being responsible for so much destruction in the story is even less original given that we literally had that same plot point play out during the Nier raids back in Shadowbringers. There's also a certain popular anime that ended recently and chose to attribute much of its story beats to the actions of a sad little girl.

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I confess, as soon as I got to Elpis and saw the sad little empath girl asking to be my friend and feeling sad for her dad Fandaniel (the only depressed person in the world) I knew. Yyyup, something's going to go horribly wrong with her, here's the anime apocalypse.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

To be completely honest we've been at it for so long now and with all of these multi-split responses it's been hard for me to recall what we were going for in each point and to follow the conversation. I did my best to recall things without going back 20 pages for an accurate depiction.

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That’s fine, but I have every reason to call that as well, since what we are arguing about is kind of important for the discussion we want to have.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Ok. Now what?

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I’m reiterating my point. Do you’d disagree with it? If not then there was no reason to begin this back and forth and we just wasted both of our times.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Yes, I don't even know what you're trying to argue with this point anymore. What exactly does his "unique" expertise at that particular time entail if you don't disagree with them being capable of eventually acquiring the same expertise?

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…that you can’t get rid of him and slot in another before or during the Final Days?? That’s the whole point for why Venat couldn’t simply tell everyone before hand remember?

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Originally Posted by Sicno

What I said is that her referring to "humanity" as a whole, both past and present, to fit the narrative of a particular cutscene isn't some irrefutable proof of her seeing pre-and-post humanity as the same (not consistently, at least). Just because in the end she got her "feel good" moment of this new humanity passing her "test" and being strong enough to have a chance at facing Meteion (but like someone else mentioned, testing your fitness to prevail where "aether will avail you naught" by defeating an aether rich entity, lol) doesn't mean at the time she didn't pass her own judgment on humanity and didn't deem them unfit without her sundering.

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But this is a contradiction. Once again, if she believed humanity unfit to live on, why would she believe that the sundered would be different if it did not at all change their fundamental nature. The point of the Sundering was to imprison Zodiark and in turn force humanity to face suffering head on. It was not intended to alter its fundamental nature. In other words, she believed in mankind’s ability to “find a way forward,” and the Sundering was done to force them to do so.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

But is it that simple? If you split a person into 14, even if they all possess a fragment of the same "soul", does any of them retain the same consciousness as the original? We could guess the ones in the Source could have, but would we be certain? Or none at all and all fragments have completely new consciousness? Also, think of your own character and remember Ardbert. Can you look at him and say "yes, this is undoubtedly the same person as me/my character"? With how strikingly different everything is between you 2, could you tell which one can be identified as the same Azem as was split? Or neither one?

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It’d be the same as someone making 14 exact copies of myself, all based on the person I was at that exact moment. Which means philosophically they’re are a million different answers to your questions. Personally, my thought is they are all me, until the first moment passes and we then have separate experiences, paths, memories, etc.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

The same way your local priest won't ask if you're gonna baptize your newborn daughter but when. Or your friend would ask you when you're gonna bring Danny to the baseball field. Again, casual conversation taken way too seriously and extrapolated to absolutes.

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Baptism is a great example. If my priest asked that I would of course assume that they expected me to do so and if I lived in a society where the Catholic Church still held great sway, I’d certainly feel obligated. Once again I concede they may not be forced to do so, but heavily encouraged?

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I already responded to this before. They didn't need to go fight her the same way we did. They could have just done anything that would have stopped her from affecting them (making an aether prison around her, consuming the dynamis around her to leave her dry, etc.)

Hell, she was even uncapable of altering the ancients themselves, only their creation magics. Worst case scenario just ban creation magics, grab a spade and a pickaxe and live a simple life with physical labor and without having to sunder anyone, problem solved. The most important part was to know that there was an attacker and that dynamis was the medium. A solution was reachable.

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None of the solutions mentioned would work given what we know of Dynamis and the nature of Ultima Thule. And simply convincing a handful of Ancients to rough it doesn’t prepare them to face despair incarnate, a being that instilled a fear of death and suffering the Ancients never forget even after millennia of reincarnations.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I confess, as soon as I got to Elpis and saw the sad little empath girl asking to be my friend and feeling sad for her dad Fandaniel (the only depressed person in the world) I knew. Yyyup, something's going to go horribly wrong with her, here's the anime apocalypse.

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The moment I laid eyes on her my only thought was "I'm gonna have to kill the small child, aren't I."

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

The characters “growth” in EW is quite disappointing. This is not the Emet-Selch I live in ShB. The Emet-Selch I know was determined, believe in his own course even have entire weight of the world on his shoulder he still believe in his path.

Elpis Emet-Selch have show such strong character but when we met him again in Ultima Thule, he is not the same. I would say Venat have the same issue, her character change to a very shallow in Ultima Thule.

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Yes, because he's thousands, if not millions of years older, has had access to his whole memory, and knows where he stood, that he did everything he could, and can't fight anymore. Venat also could drop her facade of being Hydaelyn and become a mere human back. That's legit.

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Hermes is a poor written antagonist like a child throwing a tantrum, the meterion wrap up feel like writer want to throw a Six sense M. Night Shyamalan, but turn out to be a “lady in the water M. Night Shyamalan“

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Hermes is a clinically depressed protagonist, not an antagonist, and that's the reason you can't love him, you just don't understand his concept.

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Writer try to build and wrap up all the story/plot base around the whole meterion/dynamis in one single expansion patch and all those “well build” characters got turn into shallow kindergarten writing at the very end of this patch

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Yes, if you read through your prism that forgets the characters are human and that your canon is not the canon.

Hermes was better as Fandango, fite me bub.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Hermes was better as Fandango, fite me bub.

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lol I agree at least he was honest in his actions.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Yes, because he's thousands, if not millions of years older, has had access to his whole memory, and knows where he stood, that he did everything he could, and can't fight anymore. Venat also could drop her facade of being Hydaelyn and become a mere human back. That's legit.



Hermes is a clinically depressed protagonist, not an antagonist, and that's the reason you can't love him, you just don't understand his concept.



Yes, if you read through your prism that forgets the characters are human and that your canon is not the canon.

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The problem with Hermes imo is that he didn’t try to help himself. We see that there are other ancients who share his sentiments but as we help them they slowly resolve their issues and get stronger from it. It doesn’t seem like Hermes went out and tried to do the same for himself. Instead he wallowed in his own depression and sadness and ultimately became self destructive. In the end that’s nobody’s fault but his own and he is very much an antagonist, definitely didn’t deserve being put in the end credit artwork lol. Because of his “depression” countless civilizations were destroyed and suffered.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Hermes is a clinically depressed protagonist, not an antagonist, and that's the reason you can't love him, you just don't understand his concept.

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While I vehemently disagree with every part of this sentence, after the deification of Venat it wouldn't surprise me. The two characters who make rejoinings look like child's play being depicted as noble and benevolent was something else.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The problem with Hermes imo is that he didn’t try to help himself. We see that there are other ancients who share his sentiments but as we help them they slowly resolve their issues and get stronger from it. It doesn’t seem like Hermes went out and tried to do the same for himself. Instead he wallowed in his own depression and sadness and ultimately became self destructive. In the end that’s nobody’s fault but his own and he is very much an antagonist, definitely didn’t deserve being put in the end credit artwork lol. Because of his “depression” countless civilizations were destroyed and suffered.

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And the creations he pretended to care so much about.

And that's why you and 8 other people hate EW : you don't understand depression and don't want to, you think sadness and depression are alike, and don't care if they're not the same because that's not how you want to view the world.

Hermes did try to help himself, as no one else was willing to help him, that's why he created meteion, but with his mind blurred by depression and self-hate, he made a bet that was rigged in his defavor, not because he wanted to, but because he couldn't do any better. Because depression does hinder the brain, you don't call it a sickness for no reason. And that bet eventually turned around to bite everyone, but that's not what he intended. Y'all should try to remember that when you want grey characters, it's not only "good guys that did bad things" but also "bad guys that actually were trying their best to do good".

Hermes wanted to find a reason to live, and teach it to others to bring them more satisfaction and happiness, that's all he tried to do. Then, during a depression peak, he hurt himself and tried to hurt the whole ancient world (that he hates for valid reasons he spends countless lines explaining) by judging them the same way they judge every other race. That's stupid, but that's just what depression does. He tried to do good, the most good he could. Even if that good involved suiciding his entire race.

Each to their own, though I personally think it does a disservice to many people who have struggled with depression to try and gatekeep 'understanding it' behind a fictional entity that, quite frankly, wasn't exactly portrayed as a reasonable or rational individual.

Nor do I believe that every man, woman and child within a civilisation needs to be endangered to appease the bizarre whims of an individual such as Hermes.

I will empathize with the deerbirds rather than the ravenous red dogs that killed them, thanks. Much in the same way, I'll empathize with the sundered and unsundered who were killed in the Final Days. Now go eat a candy apple or something.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

And that's why you and 8 other people hate EW : you don't understand depression and don't want to, you think sadness and depression are alike, and don't care if they're not the same because that's not how you want to view the world.

Hermes did try to help himself, as no one else was willing to help him, that's why he created meteion, but with his mind blurred by depression and self-hate, he made a bet that was rigged in his defavor, not because he wanted to, but because he couldn't do any better. Because depression does hinder the brain, you don't call it a sickness for no reason. And that bet eventually turned around to bite everyone, but that's not what he intended. Y'all should try to remember that when you want grey characters, it's not only "good guys that did bad things" but also "bad guys that actually were trying their best to do good".

Hermes wanted to find a reason to live, and teach it to others to bring them more satisfaction and happiness, that's all he tried to do. Then, during a depression peak, he hurt himself and tried to hurt the whole ancient world (that he hates for valid reasons he spends countless lines explaining) by judging them the same way they judge every other race. That's stupid, but that's just what depression does. He tried to do good, the most good he could. Even if that good involved suiciding his entire race.

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Being recover from depression and anxiety not long ago, I believe I understand how serious this illness could be

I remember losing interest in everything, questioning what lie ahead in future, frustrate about everything, and eventually hurting everyone who care and around.

Understanding him doesn't mean I would like him. I lose very good friends because how many "tantrum" I caused. My issue of Hermes is the cut scene after Ktisis Hyperboreia. Or to put it this way, I understand the pain he gone through but I could not keep up with the "shxt" he throwing. Using 1 map merely around 2 levels of content to develop a character that play an very important role in the biggest plot revealing is just not enough.

I found Venat share the same issue, I like her character, I like how her develop in Elpis, and when the cut scene showing her interaction with remaining ancients during the final day, I can understand her lose of hope in humanity. What I dislike, again Meterion and dynamis. Her frustration about her own kind trying to sacrifying more and more population just to bring back those old day, she see her people gone astray and I can understand why she choice of sundering there. However, the sundered so better interact with dynamis, and lack of choice to confront/disucss such matter after the Mother crystal trial feel very "force" by the writer.

Hermes is not the only thing I dislike in EW, I dislike the Emet-Selch in last map, I dislike the plot in the forum, I dislike how Scion portrait in the last map. I feel EW being rush to wrap up everything and many plot/characters lack deep development. I believe it would turn out more well receive if the writer use entire 6.X to develop the characters, the "twist" of Dynamis/Meterion plot. Like Emet-Selch, I hate him to the bone when he first introduce but the writer give time to developed this character and give us time to "digest" the backstory of him. Zenos came out as complete nutter in Stormblood, give enough development in ShB, and EW, he is still a evil characters I will never agree with but he feel more well developed

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

And that's why you and 8 other people hate EW : you don't understand depression and don't want to, you think sadness and depression are alike, and don't care if they're not the same because that's not how you want to view the world.

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That is a Hell of an assumption to make. I have Major Depressive Disorder, I am intimately familiar with it having suffered with it for years. Hermes was not relatable to me at all nor did I resonate with any of the messaging throughout EW. It felt like someone's imagining of despair rather than anything from personal experience.

Frankly, it sounds like you projected your own thoughts and feelings onto Hermes, because my interpretation of his character is not even close to yours.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Frankly, it sounds like you projected your own thoughts and feelings onto Hermes, because my interpretation of his character is not even close to yours.

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Even if that was the case (It is not, but we're not here to compare how depressive we are, are we now ?), why would you care ? People can relate to him, he is an example of depression, and the fact y'all had depression and don't relate to him has nothing to do with whatever.

Let me say something here : the fact you don't relate and have depression does not make it a bad depressive character. Again, it just shows you lack empathy. Because yes, there are different kind of depression, believe it or not. But I'm clearly talking to walls, so whatever, you guys know more about writing, mental disorders and whatnot. It's just pretty sad that people that suffer from depression don't even care enough about others to try and understand things when they are clearly explained. Have fun.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Even if that was the case (It is not, but we're not here to compare how depressive we are, are we now ?), why would you care ? People can relate to him, he is an example of depression, and the fact y'all had depression and don't relate to him has nothing to do with whatever.

Let me say something here : the fact you don't relate and have depression does not make it a bad depressive character. Again, it just shows you lack empathy. Because yes, there are different kind of depression, believe it or not. But I'm clearly talking to walls, so whatever, you guys know more about writing, mental disorders and whatnot. It's just pretty sad that people that suffer from depression don't even care enough about others to try and understand things when they are clearly explained. Have fun.

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I have a lot more empathy for the people Hermes ended up killing due to his actions. Just because he suffers from depression does not absolve him of accountability. Yes, I empathize with his condition (being a sufferer of MDD and GAD myself) and totally understand why he did what he did. This does NOT mean I have to like or agree with it. The way you're phrasing things makes it sounds like he lacks capacity and cannot rationalize for himself.

There's a perfectly logical reason why a person suffering from depression would be less empathetic towards Hermes than those that aren't: depressed people understand that feeling miserable isn't an excuse to set off a timer to a hidden nuclear bomb, with the reason given that if the people in the area were worthy of living, they will somehow find this bomb without any instructions and disarm it.

That is where Hermes's self-loathing transforms into nihilistic hatred of every person around him, even those that have done nothing to him and would attempt to help him if they knew how distressed he was.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I’m reiterating my point. Do you’d disagree with it? If not then there was no reason to begin this back and forth and we just wasted both of our times.

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But your point is...

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

…that you can’t get rid of him and slot in another before or during the Final Days?? That’s the whole point for why Venat couldn’t simply tell everyone before hand remember?

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But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

But this is a contradiction. Once again, if she believed humanity unfit to live on, why would she believe that the sundered would be different if it did not at all change their fundamental nature. The point of the Sundering was to imprison Zodiark and in turn force humanity to face suffering head on. It was not intended to alter its fundamental nature. In other words, she believed in mankind’s ability to “find a way forward,” and the Sundering was done to force them to do so.

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To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.

So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

It’d be the same as someone making 14 exact copies of myself, all based on the person I was at that exact moment. Which means philosophically they’re are a million different answers to your questions. Personally, my thought is they are all me, until the first moment passes and we then have separate experiences, paths, memories, etc.

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And I think after that "first moment" passes whatever is left of the original person ceases to be, and all these 14 copies start a new life.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

None of the solutions mentioned would work given what we know of Dynamis and the nature of Ultima Thule.

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Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And simply convincing a handful of Ancients to rough it doesn’t prepare them to face despair incarnate, a being that instilled a fear of death and suffering the Ancients never forget even after millennia of reincarnations.

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I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

But your point is...

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"My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time."

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Originally Posted by Sicno

But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.

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Because it had to be super fast!

https://i.imgur.com/OgbgXg2.jpg

And once again, the issue is that Hermes was one of a kind in the realm of celestial, given his own mentor wasn't an expert in it and that others in the field repeatedly state his brilliance.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

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Dynamis is not hard to control, for someone has the ability to do so. Once again the Ancients would need to create the being and also impart it with the motivation, will and resilience to overcome Meteion. The former is the easy part comparitively.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.

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You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?

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Go ask those living in that timeline if sending G'raha back was to make their own lives better. Oh wait, you don't need to as Omega already did.

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And after the night comes the morning, as the sun rises to greet the new day. While it may already be too late to mend this dying world, there are those who would strive to create a place where the sun will shine again, not for their own sake, but for those in a past that may yet be saved.

I think this must be what mortals call “hope.”

It is...beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.

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Dynamis is more abundant than aether by far so a prison wouldn't work. Dynamis and Aether aren't consumed, they are manipulated, and manipulating Dynamis just enough to allow us to challenge Meteion was the plan all along. And in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we had a personal connection with Meteion, and that we knew of her love for Hermes, we would have been trapped there.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.

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Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

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That's actually something I never even thought about. But yeah, from the look of it the only things you need in order to use Dynamis are... knowing it exists and having a low enough aetheric density to affect it. Since they already had the means of Sundering if it was necessary (Venat/Hydaelyn) as well as the knowledge of Meteion's location (again, Venat), all the Ancients would've needed is a means of traveling to Ultima Thule, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to accomplish for them, either.

EDIT: Oh, and they'd probably have to get therapy for Hermes, since he's both the man best suited to dealing with Meteion on a personal level and the one most likely to screw them over if he's involved otherwise. Maybe parley with him. "We won't hurt your daughters and we'll even rethink our policies for concept creation, so please tell them to stop trying to murder us all".

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

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It’s almost like for a majority of this, they had help from higher up entities, more notably the ancients of whom you seem to think weren’t as good lol. Along with other unsundered beings like dragons and high tech from a civilization helped by another higher up being, or even a god-like deity.Also lets not act like its the sundered as a whole capable of doing this. Its WoL and the scions and maybe a couple others, and keep in mind the WoL isnt even fully sundered as hes rejoined partially. The 7 calamites theyve "weathered" were 7 times they failed. 8UC is just yet another time they failed and needed to almost sacrifice an entire timeline's worth of people just to bring the one person they can rely on back.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPaTNzMXUAAs-LG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OXwks0G.png

Yeah, can't imagine why you'd want to move away from that and restore what once was when you have the means to do so and nothing but platitudes arguing otherwise...

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

That's actually something I never even thought about. But yeah, from the look of it the only things you need in order to use Dynamis are... knowing it exists and having a low enough aetheric density to affect it. Since they already had the means of Sundering if it was necessary (Venat/Hydaelyn) as well as the knowledge of Meteion's location (again, Venat), all the Ancients would've needed is a means of traveling to Ultima Thule, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to accomplish for them, either.

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And at worst, if they had no other solutions whatsoever, you're talking selectively sundering maybe a few of them. Not the entire star and civilisation.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The 7 calamites theyve "weathered" were 7 times they failed.

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Not to mention that the Source surviving calamities are intended by the Ascian, otherwise the world would be dead lol. With how much they shape history, I won't even be surprised if the Astral era (where people rebuild and prosper) that followed after each calamity are designed by them so they could have civilizations as catalyst for the next disaster.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

"My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time."

And once again, the issue is that Hermes was one of a kind in the realm of celestial, given his own mentor wasn't an expert in it and that others in the field repeatedly state his brilliance.

Because it had to be super fast!

*Screenshot*

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"It is only a matter of time" is a figure of speech for "it's inevitable, it WILL happen". Not that it will happen "soon". Just that it's inescapable.

Also, during this chapter of Pandaemonium and probably until the very end of the raid series the Final Days haven't happened yet.

It could have happened fast, it could have happened after months/years, we don't know. But again, enough time should have happened for Pandaemonium to happen from start to finish (I doubt we'll get to the final chapter, see the Final Days and then get back out to sunny bright day Elpis) and for Hermes to assume his seat on the Convocation.

Also, for the 23567423th time, you're underestimating the fitness of the collective of researchers of the entire star SERIOUSLY devoting to studying dynamis and trying to find a solution to their impending doom vs the expertise the planet's most devoted geek to his super niche hobby acquired during his lunch breaks. How long do you think it would have taken them to match such knowledge?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Dynamis is not hard to control, for someone has the ability to do so. Once again the Ancients would need to create the being and also impart it with the motivation, will and resilience to overcome Meteion. The former is the easy part comparitively.

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But it didn't need to have a consciousness of its own that she could have corrupted. Let me give you a silly example. Emphasis on THIS IS A SILLY EXAMPLE. The Elpis flower didn't have a consciousness to manipulate dynamis into something deliberate, but it still reacted to it. It must have consumed some dynamis in a reaction that produces that change in color. If you put a giant Elpis flower near her it would have sucked larger quantities of dynamis. In the same way they could have created other things that would have sucked dynamis in larger quantities without having a consciousness to corrupt. Make a giant lamp post, an artificial sun, whatever.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Dynamis and Aether aren't consumed, they are manipulated, and manipulating Dynamis just enough to allow us to challenge Meteion was the plan all along.

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When Y'shtola witnesses someone turning into a blasphemy in Thavnair she says their aether is gone. There's no trace of the aether that constituted them. Where did that aether go if it wasn't consumed when creating these dynamis corporeal beings? Also dynamis crystals exist (you can even buy them with gemstones) so it's possible to store it into crystalized forms and keep them out of her reach. The more I think about it the more I realize there's so much they could have done.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Dynamis is more abundant than aether by far so a prison wouldn't work.

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And with all the dynamis in the universe she wasn't capable of twisting a single ancient. That's the density of aether you need to completely block her effects. A single unsundered. She was capable of twisting their creations just because they weren't as aetherially dense as themselves.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.

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But... before they made Zodiark she still didn't twist any of the ancients themselves, only their creations.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we had a personal connection with Meteion, and that we knew of her love for Hermes, we would have been trapped there.

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That's just because we were trying to defeat her, so we needed to reach her in some capacity to interact with her directly. But again, the other possible solutions I proposed (and that didn't take me too long to think of) don't need to interact with her directly nor defeat her nor anything like that. Just block her effects or deprive her of the sauce that feeds her.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

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But I mean in the context of "how the old humanity couldn't solve the Final Days so a new sundered humanity was necessary and they solved it". I'm talking specifically about the part that made the difference. The calamities and other battles are irrelevant in this context.

Btw the calamities are meant to be survived by humanity by design, exterminating everybody and not having anyone with whom the fragmented in the shards would be rejoined wouldn't have served the unsundered's plans. Remember they overdid it with the 13th only to realize it was useless to them.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Go ask those living in that timeline if sending G'raha back was to make their own lives better. Oh wait, you don't need to as Omega already did.

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It was to create a better future in which none of that happened. Their hope wasn't put in creating a better tomorrow but instead focused on their past.


Edit: grouped it better to follow each topic more easily.

Okay, deep breath. I'll try to calm down.

I just want to call back to my initial comment about Dynamis being Calvinball to allude to its vague and nebulous non-rules that writers conjure up to fit whatever scene they want to write. "They could have done X with Dynamis!" "No they couldn't, that's not how Dynamis works!"

I would say that, currently, the score between EaraGrace and Sicno is oogy to boogy.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.

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I'd just like to say though that the one thing we know for certain about Zodiark's barrier is that he held it up for 12,000 years while functionally in a coma, broken into pieces scattered across dimensions and without replenishing his aether from his basal state, and it only broke after 12,000 years because some malicious gremlin (finally) committed suicide while piloting Zodiark. We can logically infer that it might have broken eventually, but he was doing just fine from what we've seen in game.