As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I think all of us can agree a healer shouldn't be required to dps if they're not comfortable.

That doesn't mean there is no room for improvement or that a person is going to stay at that level in all situations.

When Dun Scaith first came out, I could never seem to fit in dps beyond dots in the opener. Now if I'm running with an FC co-healer, I can do more. When I ran Zurvan EX on my own in party finder, I only found one or two WHM who were good enough and geared enough

We should foster a supportive community, not a hostile one. Encourage dps but don't get mean about it if someone declines. Barring a few examples of people filling their time by dancing or jumping around in circles, most people are just doing their best.

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This exactly bounddreamer thank you

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Great summary, it really sums up how I was feeling about the situation and why I went through such lengths to put light on that scenario (although you explain it much better than I could have).

I didn't want any future or current healers that could be reading this thread to feel like there was a ton of pressure to instantly be a Pro at doing healer DPS or get kicked, because that will simply cause an issue to push against the meta and limits the ability to adapt and become a better healer. (some will either quit the healer roll, or be too scared to attempt it for fear of failing initially)

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So true but then bourne was saying how expected it was and most teams require it. That was why I saw a probem with that expectation.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

I agree, if only she could take full advantage of your advice then there probably wouldn't be any hostility in this thread at all.Alas she cannot really address people properly and doesn't make a lot of sense, she also doesn't seem to read what you say to her a lot of the time, asking questions or trying to make points that has already been addressed a million times.

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what actually doesnt make sense is saying or implying that I cant be in a savage team and be casual, when I am. There has been agreement from me too when Ive said its optimal but you dont see that it seems. I keep saying I do what my team wants and thats not heard either . When I say I dps when I can that falls on deaf ears too. The hostility sometimes comes from some of your assumptions about me as well even though Ive been as open and honest as I can be bar human flaws like not rembering

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Originally Posted by Awful

It's easy when you have the perfect comp, knowledgeable healers and tanks that contribute to the groups overall dps. The healers (specially xero) did more dps than pugs pre echo, well maybe not more but it's silly that the striking dummy boss can be cheesed very easily.

I haven't been on in 2 weeks due to irl stuff so I haven't touched creator savage with echo but it'll be super friggen faceroll with my static.

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Yes think your right and said so about teams needing to be ok as well to give the space . but most of the teams ive been in (random or learner) you arnt always able to. But see judge is 100 theres not many can do it not being negative cos think its brilliant

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The hostility sometimes comes from some of your assumptions about me as well even though Ive been as open and honest as I can be bar human flaws like not rembering

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Please, Feyona, reread the comments (from Deliciou5 and Lambdafish); if you have a doubt on something (and there is no shame on this) reread them before writing a response. They aren't hostile. You never got any hostility, at least coming from nowhere or for no reason. And unfortunately, and i'm not saying this to attack you but to help you in a certain way (keep this in mind, please, pretty please) : but you weren't as open and honest than you think, or at last it's not how people could see you here. Not that you didn't want to, and i'm sure you thought you were, but you remained stuck on certains words without thinking of the whole meaning quite often. As you did about me since my first comment unfortunately. That's why it's hard to make your description with these words on it, but it can still happen obviously, eh. And yeah, I can't say that I'm not bitter about you now, but if you trully think what bounddreamer said then just reread the comments, you'll see that nothing was written to devalue you, so no need to start a new conflict for nothing about what these two persons just said. Nobody did assumptions based on nothing. And there is no personal attack.

Bounddreamer is totally right : "I think we're all on the same page about this, we're just using different words and perspectives to frame our arguments". But don't forget if you have more than one or two persons telling you the same thing, you have to take it in consideration. It's very important. '-'

Oh, and since i'm here, as I kept telling you, you are free to play the way you want, especially if you aren't confident enough yet. And since my first comment I, and probably most of people present here, understood your situation and your stance and everything. But, just don't get stuck on words again. As I said twenty pages ago : the community here isn't as bad as you thought, and really tries to help. :)

And nobody said you can't be in savage while being a casual (not even me on my previous comment), so take a breath, and chill out. If you having fun in what you are doing, and same for your team, it means you are doing it right and nothing else really matters.

And I do hope you won't take this message as an attack in your direction, it's not. Like totally not.
But i'm probably in your blacklist now, but... Eh, I tried.

Feyona... what is your main point in this thread? It just seems to me like you go in circles and circles. Do you just like posting the same things?

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

Feyona... what is your main point in this thread? It just seems to me like you go in circles and circles. Do you just like posting the same things?

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I am replying luna. Thats what I am doing most of the time here. My main point is in the post abovd that bounddreamer articulated better than I could

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

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Your right, there isnt but even if if it comes across that way I didnt have hostility towards you . Ill admit I got defensive about some of the things you said to me. Maybe, possibility of misunderstanding from both sides. As I didnt mean you particularly when I said things obviously came across that way. I dont think lambdafish or delicious being hostile either. Just some assumptions were incorrect or seemed . I should be more careful the way I word things in future. Even if I disagree ill try to put it a better way. My first posts on these thread were put down , in a way that did come across quite toxic imagine coming here to see what the community says about healer dps for the first time after you find out you cant heal, looking for an explanation and you jump straght into a healer dps debate without knowing there is one. And your told not to suck (cant rember without looking what was said.) if you dont and your thoughts are 'but but Im a healer'.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

well what you say has no bearing on me because I am in a savage team and we are doing it so what is your point? You cant force yours on me either so why state it? Plus I dont or ever have dismissed the needs of my team, where does that idea come from anyway ? Sorry to efit here bu because that guy left the group as well because he didnt like their treatment of me doesnt that tell you something? If it was the case I hadnt tried which was proved I did if you can see that side of things about the reports rubbish or not I still attemted to do what they asked of me and some of you have already said trying is acceptable I just wasnt given the time to learn or given instruction so yes bound to be rubbish according to the meta

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Sorry...? You must have massively misread what I said because I can't quite follow your arguement here. I know you are in a happy static right now, that's good and I'm glad you have a group that you synergise with. I'm talking specifically about your attitude towards your previous raid group that you got kicked from, and your idea that personal enjoyment comes first (which was a response to a direct quote) in raiding. I'm not forcing my own ideals onto you, that was never my intention, rather I was trying to explain that team ideals override personal ideals in raid (using my own personal experience of having to suit different groups) and each member needs to adapt. This is easy or hard depending on fight and group, and I'm glad that you have found a group who is happy with you. Go back and reread my posts with that frame of mind.

You seem to have this idea that i think you are bad, or that I am getting personal based on false info, and I want to clarify that all of my information is based on direct quotes and what I have read here, and all I want is to help you understand the reason that you were kicked from that raid group, and maybe help a few people along the way understand what it means to be in a raid group, I'm not trying to teach you how to heal, and I'm definately not saying that you aren't in a good place right now.

Edit: Also, minor gripe, can you please use the edit post function in future as you posted 5 times in a row, and it is a massive reason that this thread is so bloated.

There seems bit of mis understanding about my old static because I never refused to try to dps I just said I couldnt find windows in a9s and while learning a10s. On a9s I was main healer. I have a personal preference to heal said Ill try and did.. In a one off group the tank died on zurvan ex twice because I was sch and dpsing,if I hadnt been in cleric tank wouldnt of died. I was asked to dps (so I did) and both times couldnt heal enough with a lustrate and had no time to put adlo on, after cs. Why I said that is you seemed to say that I dictate to my group. Thats nottrue but here I find having to defend why I couldnt dps one time. Because saying on one hand that its ok to only dps if your comfortable then saying you have a bad attitude if your group wants it and you dont is a bit of a no win dont you think? But the reason I was kicked was probably due to impatiance, and blaming more than my attitude. Raids are called static breakers in savage. Sorry to edit but dont know how to do it till after I post yes noobish looking but dont see edit function. This post was replying to Lambdafish btw

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Originally Posted by Feyona

So true but then bourne was saying how expected it was and most teams require it. That was why I saw a probem with that expectation.

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Key phrasing you glossed over in Xero's post: "a ton of pressure to instantly be a Pro."

At no point have I ever insinuated any disagree with that sentiment. I spoke about healers who flatout refuse to DPS or improve their performance. Seeing a healer pull sub 200 DPS despite weeks of practice can get irksome, especially if everyone else is looking for ways to improve.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Key phrasing you glossed over in Xero's post: "a ton of pressure to instantly be a Pro."

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No I didnt gloss over it quite the opposite, I was expected to be an istant or almost pro in the static i was in that I was kicked from and wouldnt have joined it in the first place if it hadnt been described as 'casual' 'its just for fun to try to clear' and ' theres others here with no raid experience'. Then after a few clears switch the goal post to ' you have a week to learn pro sch dps' I was just referring to your post that most teams want optimal dps/healers and I agree , but no one gets chance to learn if they cant get a team in the first place or existing ones want it overnight. Think theres only a very few people that flat out refuse tbh. Apologise for edit I know what he meant and agree with him as well but no amount of trying to blame my attitude towards my team will change the fact that I didnt refuse anyway and tried my best, although found i impossible to do in situation. Forgive me for saying but there been alot of posts here that state that healer dps is wanted and required and suggests that you cant get in team that has those 'standards' So maybe its not just my statement of my experience that puts pressure there? Ill entierly agree the pressure exists though but it wasnt put there by me

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Sorry to edit but dont know how to do it till after I post yes noobish looking but dont see edit function.

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After you posted something and sent it there will be a button saying "edit" in the lower right corner of each of your post. Click it to avoid the restriction of 1.000 words. :)
It is a common thing to post something like "Placeholder /10char", because a post needs at least 10 characters and then people edit and write as much as they want to.

You can also click "quote" below various posts of others and then copy what you want to quote and paste it into another post of yours. That way you don't need >1 posts to answer to various people. ^^

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

After you posted something and sent it there will be a button saying "edit" in the lower right corner of each of your post. Click it to avoid the restriction of 1.000 words. :)
It is a common thing to post something like "Placeholder /10char", because a post needs at least 10 characters and then people edit and write as much as they want to.

You can also click "quote" below various posts of others and then copy what you want to quote and paste it into another post of yours. That way you don't need >1 posts to answer to various people. ^^

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Thank you /10char is that it?

Yes. :) You can also write "editing" or whatever, so people know there will be more added soon, because you have to post it first, and edit it afterwards. So people can wait until you finished your edits completely and don't answer before you were able to type everything. ^^

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Originally Posted by Feyona

There seems bit of mis understanding about my old static

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Thats fine, there was always going to be some misunderstanding, for example you have never once mentioned that you were invited under the explicit impression that it was a casual group. Kicking someone for underperforming is fine, but what isn't fine is them misinforming the standard in which is expected, that is the primary, and likely only issue with the situation and that puts them in the wrong. Expecting a pro healer isn't a bad thing, quite the opposite, but like with anything, communication and clarity is extreamly important.

I know you tried, and I know that you push yourself as a healer, and I'm sorry if any wires were crossed. I want you to understand, and I hope this has come across through the patience and frankly deep and thought provoking discussion that has happened in this thread, that healer DPS is a truly complex issue, and that your problem actually has nothing to do with that. The fault lies with the presentation of your invitation, and the fact that the standard that was expected was not made clear before you joined, and you suffered because of poor communication from them.

People complain about this discussion and how long it has stretched on for, but I have actually had a blast, learned a lot of things myself, and I feel like this is one of the most deep and thought provoking discussions about mechanical and social trends within this game that I have ever had on the forums, and that is what raiding is about, learning more about how the game works and how people work together to challenge the difficult content. Thanks everyone for the discussion :)

I feel like I've learned a lot too. Thanks everyone who stayed patient and positive. And a big thanks to Feyona for putting up with a lot of frustration on both ends as we worked toward understanding. I was initially pretty argumentative but now that I've come to understand, I appreciate what Feyona has been trying to convey and apologize if I've come across as adversarial.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RUFT35S7Jb4

Hehe I had to xD but great way to bring up your ideas I've been lurking and reading this it's great to see some PR in this thread was a wild ride!

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Thats fine, there was always going to be some misunderstanding,


People complain about this discussion and how long it has stretched on for, but I have actually had a blast, learned a lot of things myself, and I feel like this is one of the most deep and thought provoking discussions about mechanical and social trends within this game that I have ever had on the forums, and that is what raiding is about, learning more about how the game works and how people work together to challenge the difficult content. Thanks everyone for the discussion :)

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Thank you Lambdafish its good that people have come to an uderstanding of each other and sorry if I came across confrontationally. It does make me feel better when it can be like this. I do realise that alot of what you put was meant to be supportive so I appreciate your effort.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I feel like I've learned a lot too. Thanks everyone who stayed patient and positive. And a big thanks to Feyona for putting up with a lot of frustration on both ends as we worked toward understanding. I was initially pretty argumentative but now that I've come to understand, I appreciate what Feyona has been trying to convey and apologize if I've come across as adversarial.

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I thank you as well bounddreamer for that one post that you did summed up what Ive been trying to say for pages and pages but , its good we got there in the end. I want everyone to enjoy what they do in game so I hope you continue to enjoy yours. Wishing you all the best :)

Damn. This thread has exploded since I last posted in it.

I'm glad this thread is actually being of some use, and isn't just a shouting match anymore.

This thread has been the host of some many variations of the same exact logic that it has achieved legends in-itself.

Just coming to this thread so I'm not reading all 131 pages of it, but I personally am not a fan of dpsing as a healer. If I wanted to dps, I'd play my summoner. I do DPS when I can, since it helps things go faster, but I'm not worried about my DPS either. I've seen a fair few healers complain about tanks in roulettes being too squishy so they can't DPS (which usually results in a wipe because they try to do it anyway, instead of just healing?) or DPS getting hit by things so they have to stop DPSing to heal them.. which is kinda mind blowing to me. I get that they shouldn't be getting hit by retard mechanics, but still, your role is to HEAL. I also keep seeing shit in PF, people doing speed runs and only wanting healers who are expect to pull X DPS... like.. WHAT? Makes me glad I didn't play HW and only came back now to get ready for SB.

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Originally Posted by Wyntir

Just coming to this thread so I'm not reading all 131 pages of it, but I personally am not a fan of dpsing as a healer. If I wanted to dps, I'd play my summoner. I do DPS when I can, since it helps things go faster, but I'm not worried about my DPS either. I've seen a fair few healers complain about tanks in roulettes being too squishy so they can't DPS (which usually results in a wipe because they try to do it anyway, instead of just healing?) or DPS getting hit by things so they have to stop DPSing to heal them.. which is kinda mind blowing to me. I get that they shouldn't be getting hit by retard mechanics, but still, your role is to HEAL. I also keep seeing shit in PF, people doing speed runs and only wanting healers who are expect to pull X DPS... like.. WHAT? Makes me glad I didn't play HW and only came back now to get ready for SB.

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TLDR of the thread: healer DPS is complex, and most people won't bite your head off if you don't do it often. However, please don't be lazy, and don't not DPS on principle of being a healer. People appreciate if you at least try and fail to play your job to its full potential than idle when mechanics don't hit hard. This is especially true of SCH who has a fairy and a strong DPS toolkit that compliments their healing by being DoT.

You seem to be doing that, which is good, and means the topic shifts to how the healing meta could be improved, which is a huge topic that could be talked about in length, and would take a lot of changes to the game to be fully realised both mechanically and socially.

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Originally Posted by Wyntir

<snip> like.. WHAT?

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Those are people problems, not Healer problems.

There are players out there who just want to spam that healthbar to full and little else. There are players who aren't happy unless they're out DPS'ing DPS with overgeared tanks. There are also people who want to cherry pick and min-max certain content. The real-deal healers are guaging their tank and weighing them up versus overall damage, knowing when it's safe to DPS, when they shouldn't be, and fulfiling a nice blend of keeping people healthy vs getting enemies unhealthy. The lines blur in many cases, but the essence is the same. I love DPS'ing as a Healer and get a bit sour when I'm healing a squish-tank who makes that difficult, but I never forget what I signed up as.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Those are people problems, not Healer problems.

There are players out there who just want to spam that healthbar to full and little else. There are players who aren't happy unless they're out DPS'ing DPS with overgeared tanks. There are also people who want to cherry pick and min-max certain content. The real-deal healers are guaging their tank and weighing them up versus overall damage, knowing when it's safe to DPS, when they shouldn't be, and fulfiling a nice blend of keeping people healthy vs getting enemies unhealthy. The lines blur in many cases, but the essence is the same. I love DPS'ing as a Healer and get a bit sour when I'm healing a squish-tank who makes that difficult, but I never forget what I signed up as.

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If I do get off my ass and heal something, I usually guage how fast the tank is dying before i even consider to dps, if they are allergic to cooldowns, ASAP
or even tank stance, theyll probably get filler dps spells out of clerics, or clerics when theres only 2 or 3 mobs left. More retrospectically as a tank Ill also test the waters, and as long as im not dying in 3 or 5 seconds, Im not too entirely worried. @ spells come to mind, consciously or unconsciously. Ill never not notice holy, or gravity, And depending on how dead i am while hearing this spam go off, Ill either panicly drop LD or HG or just pop something light, for their come down from their unnoticible spam. Back in 2.0 the grating noise of Holy was akin to the sound of a thousand angels, in any dungeon I ran. But I switched to DRK and usually it cauases me to drop grit and pop BW

whats really stupid here is how holy spam just wrecks bloodprice, and probably the happiest moment of being a drk, using DAAD limitlessly. But outsode of that a good player will adapt somehow. Taking too much aggrp as dps, slow the output. Tank dying from cure 1 spam, use a cure 2 maybe. Not enough? f it benediction.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Those are people problems, not Healer problems.

There are players out there who just want to spam that healthbar to full and little else. There are players who aren't happy unless they're out DPS'ing DPS with overgeared tanks. There are also people who want to cherry pick and min-max certain content. The real-deal healers are guaging their tank and weighing them up versus overall damage, knowing when it's safe to DPS, when they shouldn't be, and fulfiling a nice blend of keeping people healthy vs getting enemies unhealthy. The lines blur in many cases, but the essence is the same. I love DPS'ing as a Healer and get a bit sour when I'm healing a squish-tank who makes that difficult, but I never forget what I signed up as.

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Exactly how I feel. A good healer needs to be able to make that decision in an optimal manner to adjust to a variety of player skills. Not just defaulting to always healing or always dpsing. On that note, every job shares an equal responsibility to help the group out for example, using self heals or monks using mantra or bards using foes or ninjas using shadewalker or dragoons using elusive. All jobs need to be able to adjust to a variety of player skills and not just default to always doing one scenario.

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All jobs need to be able to adjust to a variety of player skills and not just default to always doing one scenario.

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Precisely, and the funny thing is this is what makes things fun - pushing your own boundries and flowing with situations rather than going into content expecting to walk straight lines. I absolutely adore treading the Should-I/Shouldn't-I with Cleric Stance, trying to one-up the script by always staying as far ahead of things as possible and making the DPS look like they're eating my dust, ensuring I learn as early as possible what I believe the tank can and can't take, just like they have to guage their healer to know if they can rely on them enough to be flexible with their own kit.

Meanwhile, Joe Soap out there is still standing around waiting for a healthbar to deplete...

After just doing 99 runs of Thordan I no longer care what I should be doing ..... Just off to get my bird :) Have fun, thats what I want

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Originally Posted by Wyntir

Makes me glad I didn't play HW and only came back now to get ready for SB.

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Unfortunately, I doubt this will change come Stormblood. In fact, I suspect it will only get worse unless the devs make a decision one way or another in regards to the DPS meta. If they continue to ignore, people will further push for healers to DPS because there just isn't enough outgoing damage even in the hardest content. Watching a pov of a cautious WHM, there were so many spots where she literally did nothing. That all said, this mostly extends only to Savage. If that isn't your forte, then you likely won't come across it in-game as much.

I feel it's up to the healer to decide when/if it is appropriate to do damage. Just like in the other roles, no one enjoys it when someone else comes along and tries to backseat drive them.

Granted, a healer throwing out damaging spells does help. Killing a mob prevents it from dealing damage to a party member. In addition, it's fun. Sitting around twiddling your thumbs all run is boring!

However, that healer "doing nothing" could be regenerating their mana or they could be taking a moment to decide if and what kind of healing will be needed soon. Triage is a big part of the healer's job.

That's something a damage dealer needs to respect. Because a healer is playing a different game than them.

A damage dealer is running a race. They are going all out to reach the goal tape.

Meanwhile, a healer is playing darts. They are deciding which target to hit and how much without running out of mana or overhealing.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I feel it's up to the healer to decide when/if it is appropriate to do damage.

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Well, that's kinda a given and not just limited to healers. It's also up to the DPS to decide if/when to hit which ability. And it's also up to the tank to decide if/when to hit which ability. Other people cannot make these decisions for you - they can only kick/shun you if you're making poor decisions a lot, whether that's as DPS, Healer or Tank. That's not even an opinion, that's just plain fact.

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If that isn't your forte, then you likely won't come across it in-game as much.

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Sure, if you're not looking you won't see, but it's still everywhere, moreso in lower than Savage. At least in Savage you would have some understanding giving how prolonged a fight is and how intensive it is compared to levelling content (where decisions, positioning and resources are a much bigger deal) - but expectations would also be higher at that level, so it goes both ways. Meanwhile, entered Mentor Roulette to the sight of a WHM who didn't use cleric a single time in the entire dungeon (no joke, not even a DPS spell out of stance, either), so you just know they're in for a rough ride later if they try to do this down the road. Granted, they were also casting regen on me pre-pull and other obvious novice things (don't have any problem with someone learning the ropes), so I didn't make a point of going into it, just meant I could use Sword Oath more comfortably given there was no risk of Healer doing anything but heal - but still, doesn't make it less frustrating to know the dungeon would be that much slower as a result, and I say that as a WHM main.

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Well, that's kinda a given and not just limited to healers.

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I'm sorry but I don't see DPS maintaing rotations vs mechanics as comparible 'decisions' to a tank deciding to swap-stances, less so than a Healer making a poor cleric stance decision. At least a tank in DPS stance can still perform, provided they're aware of their position in the emnity table and can rely on their Healer. A Healer doesn't have this luxury if they screw up (outside of specific CD's), yet they're expected to damage any chance they can get (and rightly so). The poor decisions part is on everyone, no question about that, but your point doesn't do any of the three roles justice.

See a few posts here saying its up to the player to decide what they need to do in a situation, but further back see alot of other people's judgement about how are others are playing. Maybe its better not to have too many expectation. Back seat drivers are very annoying, Im finding end game annoying as well cos its full of other peoples expectations, often set at too high standards for alot of people. Zurvan ex good example. One wipe people leave. You got to have at least 6 friends all online at once or you will never get much chance to learn it. Other than that seen videos of healers dpsing much of fights these people Im guessing probably get alot more practice than jo average.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I feel it's up to the healer to decide when/if it is appropriate to do damage. Just like in the other roles, no one enjoys it when someone else comes along and tries to backseat drive them.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

See a few posts here saying its up to the player to decide what they need to do in a situation, but further back see alot of other people's judgement about how are others are playing.

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And I'll explain why:

Kacho Nacho is correct to a point, it is annoying having someone tell you how to do your job optimally when you aren't actually doing anything wrong, HOWEVER, I doubt we are talking about savage raiding, and that point needs to be clarified (All the "judgement" that you are talking about is savage raiding related).

Raiding is a game of compromise, where everyone will comment on everyones performance because the party needs to optimise and synergise in order to overcome the challenges. In raiding, I don't choose when I use hallowed ground, that skill is a tool that I give to the party to decide when it is optimal for the OT and healers to not need to assist with a mechanic (In A11S as an example, I am asked to HG a specific Laser X Sword, so that the OT can focus on another job), and healing is the same. Tanks and Healers have a special relationship separate from DPS, wherin they can directly influence the other, and this means that in raiding, you can pre-plan and suggest when a healer should be doing DPS (though this often falls upon the other healer who will be interested in how healing responsibility will be split up).

Ultimately, raiding isn't a "do what I want" piece of content, and groups really need to listen to each other and sometimes compromise on what they are used to in order to overcome content.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Raiding is a game of compromise, where everyone will comment on everyones performance because the party needs to optimise and synergise in order to overcome the challenges. In raiding, I don't choose when I use hallowed ground, that skill is a tool that I give to the party to decide when it is optimal for the OT and healers to not need to assist with a mechanic (In A11S as an example, I am asked to HG a specific Laser X Sword, so that the OT can focus on another job), and healing is the same.

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Good post. And it's same for DDs too: they agree on when to use potions and their biggest buffs to push DPS in certain phases, even if it would not boost their personal DPS the most. They may get asked to handle certain mechanics, not to use Blood for Blood in particular phase, or to position themself in a way that's not optimal for their DPS. It's all about figuring out how to handle each part of the fight best as a team.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Raiding is a game of compromise, where everyone will comment on everyones performance because the party needs to optimise and synergise in order to overcome the challenges. In raiding, I don't choose when I use hallowed ground, that skill is a tool that I give to the party to decide when it is optimal for the OT and healers to not need to assist with a mechanic (In A11S as an example, I am asked to HG a specific Laser X Sword, so that the OT can focus on another job), and healing is the same. Tanks and Healers have a special relationship separate from DPS, wherin they can directly influence the other, and this means that in raiding, you can pre-plan and suggest when a healer should be doing DPS (though this often falls upon the other healer who will be interested in how healing responsibility will be split up).

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This is a real solid point. To further emphasis, I'll cite A12. Having the Warrior pull, they can eat the initial attack Raw (Thrill for a little extra HP) and Holmgang through both Punishing Heat and the subsequent auto attack. This provides both healers a window where literally no unaccounted for damage will occur. They will, in turn, decide how best to heal me. Would blowing Benediction be worthwhile here to maintain DPSing or could it be better to hold off and Cure through it? Later in the fight, they may ask I mitigate because mistakes have been made and they're hurting on mana. I'll often default back into tank stance or at least asked for that very reason. You really cannot compare the level of coordination required in endgame content versus casual. Even the DPS need to play their role. A well timed Bloodbath or Second Wind can give the healers momentary breathing room.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

And I'll explain why:

Tanks and Healers have a special relationship separate from DPS, wherin they can directly influence the other, and this means that in raiding, you can pre-plan and suggest when a healer should be doing DPS

Ultimately, raiding isn't a "do what I want" piece of content, and groups really need to listen to each other and sometimes compromise on what they are used to in order to overcome content.

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Yes dont think anyone is suggesting that you do what you want and people do need to compromise, pf duties though may be another type of scenario where expectation is set a bit too high for all, and rarely is communication good. So negotiation between healers is lacking. Although you can assess the situation up to a point, it is a little more difficult and therefore carries more risk to do. The expectation at the moment, I have been told is not only healers expected to dps, but dps alot, on Zurvan ex. It may be a possibility that some, not all, groups are kind of expecting a little too much out of healers these days and sounds like its always up to the healer to make sure they carry the group to skip soar just wondering when this trend is going.Not that I wasnt predicting this problem in earlier posts on other threads. It just seems just a little too much as recentl had a tank in dps stance as well at the same time as expecting healers dps while spamming tank with heals. Tank died no soar skip and dps leave cos we 'arnt good enough'