Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by baklava151

I don't think it's TBN that's necessarily the limiting factor in this case

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Again, I don't think TBN's exclusively at fault. I just think its current design, particularly around Dark Arts, is an obstacle. It would be more accurate to say it's an issue of the Darkside abilities as a whole, but TBN is presently balanced around them as its counterattacks, which reinforces the issue.

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if we're talking about adding more MP spenders to spice up the kit then it's more how to make sure Edge and the new MP spender don't have a clear winner in every situation. Two ways I can think of is a) new spender does more damage but doesn't add Darkside and b) new spender has a CD. I think it'd be possible to add both of those with a 3K MP cost and they'd fit in perfectly fine with TBN. I can't think of a reason for them not to cost 3K MP but if they do need to then limit Dark Arts to only working on Edge/Flood.

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That's a marginal difference though, and only adds buttons for the sake of buttons; at best you find yourself alternating which of the two you use in the rotation every thirty-ish seconds, and the choice isn't particularly meaningful since you're still focused on which does optimized damage, particularly based on what's compatible with Dark Arts.

If you compare it to the days of original!Dark Arts granting increased healing or enmity or causing attacks to inflict Blind, as well as the potential growth into other sources of mitigation and utility -- tools that actually expand our gameplay and ability to react situationally -- our immediate use of MP for almost exclusively damage purposes and to limit TBN remains pretty narrow, even in that scenario.

Right now, you can't really diversify our use of MP without adding buttons that are all basically equal (or only situationally superior) in damage value; any less and you won't use them, no matter what other utility they may provide. Even having them be buttons that consume variable amounts of MP has to be weighed against you spending 3k to activate TBN to get Dark Arts; if it costs more then bursting TBN's barrier becomes a damage imperative, and if it costs less then spending Dark Arts on them becomes an inherent damage loss.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

That's a marginal difference though, and only adds buttons for the sake of buttons; at best you find yourself alternating which of the two you use in the rotation every thirty-ish seconds, and the choice isn't particularly meaningful since you're still focused on which does optimized damage, particularly based on what's compatible with Dark Arts.

If you compare it to the days of original!Dark Arts granting increased healing or enmity or causing attacks to inflict Blind, as well as the potential growth into other sources of mitigation and utility -- tools that actually expand our gameplay and ability to react situationally -- our immediate use of MP for almost exclusively damage purposes and to limit TBN remains pretty narrow, even in that scenario.

Right now, you can't really diversify our use of MP without adding buttons that are all basically equal (or only situationally superior) in damage value; any less and you won't use them, no matter what other utility they may provide. Even having them be buttons that consume variable amounts of MP has to be weighed against you spending 3k to activate TBN to get Dark Arts; if it costs more then bursting TBN's barrier becomes a damage imperative, and if it costs less then spending Dark Arts on them becomes an inherent damage loss.

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We're on the same page then, I agree the ideas weren't super interesting but that's where we're at now where you can't do much more. ItsUrBoi had another idea a few pages back that I thought could work, where MP/Darkside would be used for damage exclusively and Blood would be for utility such as self-healing or anything else you might want to add. TBN would still be a sticking point in this scenario depending on if you like it as is or not but you get the opportunity for more utility still. Or you could flip it around and have MP be the utility resource while Blood is the damage resource, along with whatever necessary reworks that needs (Edge would have to go, its Darkside increasing effect moved elsewhere and you lose the counterattack aspect from TBN). Point being that you fully separate out the utility and damage and no longer have to worry about those two things competing, and it gives DRK some diversity in its gauges rather than having Damage Meter 1 and Damage Meter 2 that never interact.

I mean to make DRK, you start with a base 1 2 3 combo. Then you add one or two OGCDs to weave. Then you add three tank CDs that match up with the other tanks.

After that, what it comes down to is how to engineer the burst phase. The way they did their burst phase was with Delirium and Blood Weapon, but we can definitely do better than that. For one, we don't need extra skills to make something like Delirium function: The main combo can be buffed during delirium and save the extra controls just fine. The blood weapon package was also basically three skills stuck together as it is meant to speed up the use of flood.

Honestly, blood weapon should have been doing what it's namesake is and making attacks heal the DRK, not boost MP regeneration. It's literally drinking the life out of someone.

Ugh, like thinking about this Dark Arts should be the skill that transforms the main combo into a more lethal combo and blood weapon should be the skill that helps the DRK survive, since some self healing with TBN would probably make them far better at surviving dungeons. The entire Delirium combo is just totally out of left field and has been since Shadowbringers.

All the OGCDs are basically there as filler / flavor for the job and do extra damage. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I'm always lost when people are complaining about how many removed mechanics Dark Knight has been through, and then turn around and beg for them to remove more mechanics from Dark Knight.

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People just want dark knight to feel like an actual dark knight. Whatever that ends up being I don't know but the entire way this job got built was messy even during heavensward. People keep having this weird fascination with that time and all I remember is just how punishing dark arts actually was. Yes, people could be really good on dark knight and feel rewarded back then, but the floor was like two levels down through the basement.

A dark knight should have spells that drain the life and MP out of the opponent as the means of their self sustain. This is literally what they do in every iteration and instead we have a shields tank that has one disconnected skill that drains HP, one disconnected skill that drains MP, a warrior style combo delirium thing, and a blood weapon that apparently just boosts your MP regen instead of actually doing what someone would think a skill called Blood Weapon would actually do. You know, drain HP from your opponent?

Warrior for goodness sakes would have made more sense being the shield tank because they are supposed to be able to shrug off hits and be this tough fighting archetype. Yet for some reason the presentation on that job was to just stick HP healing on every single thing they do and call it a day.

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Forgot about the third thing DRK did in prior iterations. FFX-2 dress sphere version would sacrifice HP to do damage to opponents. That was something that was carried over to other versions but obviously wouldn't work well in the style of game that FFXIV is. Although they could do something where you could sacrifice the shield to do damage, so sort of simulate the same thing. They'd have to come up with a way to differentiate the shield pool of DRK from other shields because that would be funny unleashing an entire crit shield from a scholar on someone. :D

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Originally Posted by Colt47

People keep having this weird fascination with that time and all I remember is just how punishing dark arts actually was.

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I'm a bit confused by this. How was it particularly punishing? The mild resource management / ability to overspend?

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and a blood weapon that apparently just boosts your MP regen instead of actually doing what someone would think a skill called Blood Weapon would actually do. You know, drain HP from your opponent?

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Which meant you could use Blood Weapon to heal (or offer further mitigation) when you actually needed it, instead of the rigid CD providing healing only in that particular moment. It's a deviation from the obvious thematic tie-in, yes, but it was also a fair bit more useful/flexible as a result.

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Warrior for goodness sakes would have made more sense being the shield tank because they are supposed to be able to shrug off hits and be this tough fighting archetype.

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Where does the "shrug off hits" in the sense of taking little to no damage in the first place appear in XIV's lore surrounding Warrior?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm a bit confused by this. How was it particularly punishing? The mild resource management / ability to overspend?


Which meant you could use Blood Weapon to heal (or offer further mitigation) when you actually needed it, instead of the rigid CD providing healing only in that particular moment. It's a deviation from the obvious thematic tie-in, yes, but it was also a fair bit more useful/flexible as a result.


Where does the "shrug off hits" in the sense of taking little to no damage in the first place appear in XIV's lore surrounding Warrior?

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It's a combination of the lore with how the mechanics represent the lore. Dark Knight is anti-magic mechanically which is demonstrated in their ability to be better equipped against magic attacks and that provides a least a glimpse into how their "Darkness" works. The warriors mechanics are supposed to represent how the inner beast makes the warrior more like a honey badger. As in, you're more likely to hurt the warriors feelings than to physically hurt the warrior.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

warrior more like a honey badger. As in, you're more likely to hurt the warriors feelings than to physically hurt the warrior.

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Always seemed to present the opposite to me -- that they can be badly wounded but will go on nonetheless and, if left unchecked, will rise back up.

Bloodied, not beaten. Heck, all the more frenzied/raging because of having been bloodied.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Always seemed to present the opposite to me -- that they can be badly wounded but will go on nonetheless and, if left unchecked, will rise back up.

Bloodied, not beaten. Heck, all the more frenzied/raging because of having been bloodied.

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I know this line gets referenced a lot in this thread, but I always took that away as the meaning of the original DRK description ─

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So as I was saying, that heretic was fighting like a man possessed. Even after he took several wounds, he showed no sign of pain─though there was no mistaking the blood. As the fight wore on, it began to soak through his armor, spreading to every ilm of his body. But when it began to rise and envelop him as a mist, I realized it wasn't blood, but something dark and twisted...

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Which some people have taken to mean "Oh, he showed no pain and it wasn't actually blood because he wasn't actually hurt, he just used a barrier."
But going by ability names like Grit and Blackblood, and the description of the raw determination required to harness the Abyss, I assumed that was a case of Fray actively fighting through the pain ("like a man possessed"), and converting all of the damage he took into a source of power (enveloping him like mist, something dark and twisted).

That envelloping mist is likely the Darkside stance, it was originally very mist like in the trailers

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

That envelloping mist is likely the Darkside stance, it was originally very mist like in the trailers

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All the more reason for the "power" aspect I was highlighting.