Marriage feedback [inofficial Poll]

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

For the love of all that's good, what the hell happened from last i left and now?! How did you guys go from should a Mithra (F) and a Mithra (F) be able to get hitched in front of an alter in the forest to reproduction? I think we need a time out to rethink the argument.
Q: Should should same gander pixels be allowed to get married!

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Agreed. The issue at hand is whether or not same sex marriage should be allowed in Eorzea. Reproduction, and all things associated with it, has absolutely no bearing in this particular discussion.

I'm sure SE won't be risking the launch of a game that has already failed once by allowing same-sex marriage and potentially offending a large chunk of potential players that come from a wide range of cultures and religious alignments.

I mean, let's face it...
Nobody is going to avoid this game because it doesn't allow same-sex marriage.
On the other hand, there is a large possibility of a considerable number of prospective players who might avoid the game because they find certain aspects of it to be blasphemous/unethical/immoral and what-have-you.

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Originally Posted by Syrokko

I'm sure SE won't be risking the launch of a game that has already failed once by allowing same-sex marriage and potentially offending a large chunk of potential players that come from a wide range of cultures and religious alignments.

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Except they've said it likely won't be in at launch so no matter what they do, it won't screw up the launch.

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Originally Posted by Syrokko

I mean, let's face it...
Nobody is going to avoid this game because it doesn't allow same-sex marriage.
On the other hand, there is a large possibility of a considerable number of prospective players who might avoid the game because they find certain aspects of it to be blasphemous/unethical/immoral and what-have-you.

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Actually on the Kotaku article about it I saw a number of people saying they had lost interest in the game or were cancelling their accounts now. I mean in my opinion it's a bit extreme but there ARE people who see this in an incredibly negative light. And, as I've said over a dozen times already, if they simply don't call it marriage then there isn't a problem. You're not going against anyone's beliefs, you're not "blasphemous", you're just giving all players a system to use.

Some people I've talked to have actually said that it wouldn't even be a huge issue if SE didn't make it into one. Had they just said "We're allowing player marriage" and said absolutely nothing about same sex or not, most wouldn't notice.

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Originally Posted by Syrokko

On the other hand, there is a large possibility of a considerable number of prospective players who might avoid the game because they find certain aspects of it to be blasphemous/unethical/immoral and what-have-you.

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That about sums up my view exactly, except I didn't want to be that blunt. If "difference in morals" can cause a country(s) to sever ties with another country(s). Making both loose millions in profit, why is it so hard for people to see the potential for back lash for ARR.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Some people I've talked to have actually said that it wouldn't even be a huge issue if SE didn't make it into one. Had they just said "We're allowing player marriage" and said absolutely nothing about same sex or not, most wouldn't notice.

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I do agree with you, i don't think SE should have mentioned SS at all, this is a bag of cat's and it's hard to hold with out getting scratched.. It will impact launch, even if it's not in that game at that time i still think it can cause a stink.

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

That about sums up my view exactly, except I didn't want to be that blunt. If "difference in morals" can cause a country(s) to sever ties with another country(s). Making both loose millions in profit, why is it so hard for people to see the potential for back lash for ARR.

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As I mentioned a few pages back, which countries out of the regions the game supports would have some kind of huge backlash over this? Again going by the main site purely the supported regions are Japan, North America, the UK, France and Germany. Could arguably add in Spain as well.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

As I mentioned a few pages back, which countries out of the regions the game supports would have some kind of huge backlash over this? Again going by the main site purely the supported regions are Japan, North America, the UK, France and Germany. Could arguably add in Spain as well.

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Not the country, the people in it who will play (or not) the game is were the back lash will happen. Over the last little bit i know at least a dozen players in Canada (were SSM is legal) who are keeping an eye on this. And will in fact cancel accounts if it is implemented. While the law may do nothing like you clam, and i know i will not. The players the people who will be paying 15$ a month may not be as lenient. To know that they are playing a game were something they frown upon in possible..

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

Not the country, the people in it who will play (or not) the game is were the back lash will happen. Over the last little bit i know at least a dozen players in Canada (were SSM is legal) who are keeping an eye on this. And will in fact cancel accounts if it is implemented. While the law may do nothing like you clam, and i know i will not. The players the people who will be paying 15$ a month may not be as lenient. To know that they are playing a game were something they frown upon in possible..

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There are also people who will not buy the game or will cancel their account if it's not implemented, because of the implied stance they are taking on it. They may not explicitly state at stance either way, but both decisions will lose people. So why not choose the one of player equality? Or AGAIN, simply NOT call it marriage?

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Originally Posted by Arcell

There are also people who will not buy the game or will cancel their account if it's not implemented, because of the implied stance they are taking on it. They may not explicitly state at stance either way, but both decisions will lose people. So why not choose the one of player equality? Or AGAIN, simply NOT call it marriage?

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I'm going to have to agree with that portion, mostly cause I have like three sets of couples I'm going to get into 2.0 who are Heterosexual and married but rolling both girl or both boy characters, I ended up telling them about the marriage aspect and housing and what not and they were excited... For me... it just hurts that I'm not allowed to do everything I wanted to do in the game :(

Almost 1,250 posts of people making the same points over and over again. (of course nobody is going to read them all)

Let this thread die.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

There are also people who will not buy the game or will cancel their account if it's not implemented, because of the implied stance they are taking on it. They may not explicitly state at stance either way, but both decisions will lose people. So why not choose the one of player equality? Or AGAIN, simply NOT call it marriage?

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At this stage it doesn't matter what you call it. The action performed is were the people will hook on and lean one way or another. So call it what you like, here choose any word you like will not change anything. The thing that SE need to consider, is which choice would cause least loss now that the ball is rolling. Loose 3% or 10% (percentages are for example purpose only). Equality may sound good from a user stand point, not so much from a business point.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Almost 1,250 posts of people making the same points over and over again. (of course nobody is going to read them all)

Let this thread die.

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Thread's not gonna die until it gets locked or a response lol.

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

At this stage it doesn't matter what you call it. The action performed is were the people will hook on and lean one way or another. So call it what you like, here choose any word you like will not change anything. The thing that SE need to consider, is which choice would cause least loss now that the ball is rolling. Loose 3% or 10% (percentages are for example purpose only). Equality may sound good from a user stand point, not so much from a business point.

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Calling it something different DOES change things. If it's not called marriage and it's not explicitly romantic in nature then most wouldn't have reason to dislike it. Also if they don't make it an issue for themselves again, most won't notice.

As I've said before, Valentione's Day was more "controversial" than the above suggestion. It was explicitly romantic and same sex couples were not restricted. I didn't see a slew of "I QUIT!" threads on here because of it. I don't recall even seeing a single complaint over it. Most were overjoyed that SE had decided to not restrict it.

It all boils down to this... would the pyschotic religious zealots who would freak out over something like this... actually be fun people to hang around with in the game...? They generally freak out over people playing opposite gendered characters aswell.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Thread's not gonna die until it gets locked or a response lol.

Calling it something different DOES change things. If it's not called marriage and it's not explicitly romantic in nature then most wouldn't have reason to dislike it. Also if they don't make it an issue for themselves again, most won't notice.

As I've said before, Valentione's Day was more "controversial" than the above suggestion. It was explicitly romantic and same sex couples were not restricted. I didn't see a slew of "I QUIT!" threads on here because of it. I don't recall even seeing a single complaint over it. Most were overjoyed that SE had decided to not restrict it.

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Also, the restriction wouldn't address the thing that Twiddle is afraid of, as there are crossplayers that may be denied or be able to take part in the ceremony, completely sidestepping the issue. What then? Force people to play their gender? Hope they are willing to reroll away months of effort? Cancel vanlentione's day?

Are the zealous folk only pleased that so long as the male pixels get "married" to female pixels? That's a pretty hollow justification to base making the ceremony overly complex....for a ugly precedent that would extend to "moral reviews" on future content. (Future summons and plot related bosses, swimsuits, our very emotes)

If the zealous folk are looking for something to ruffle their feathers on, there's already the various summons present throughout the Final Fantasy series. Is there a thread on that yet?

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Calling it something different DOES change things. If it's not called marriage and it's not explicitly romantic in nature then most wouldn't have reason to dislike it. Also if they don't make it an issue for themselves again, most won't notice.

As I've said before, Valentione's Day was more "controversial" than the above suggestion. It was explicitly romantic and same sex couples were not restricted. I didn't see a slew of "I QUIT!" threads on here because of it. I don't recall even seeing a single complaint over it. Most were overjoyed that SE had decided to not restrict it.

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Edit [I say potato, you say (名) 马铃薯; 土豆, they say kартоф... still means potato regardless of language.] AS well i do agree with you had SE said nothing it would have been smooth sailing.

Well that's what we are both agreeing on, during the Valentione's Day event or any other event's no one said anything because SE didn't say anything. So things were as smooth as can be, and no one would be the wiser. If SE simply said "marriage will be available in a patch after 2.0 is out" and ended it at that. They could have had SS in there as well and no one would make a fuss at all. Heck even a year after the fact no one wold care. But they opened the discussion door, and gave way for public light. I can't see this ending well.

Analogy was simply something that came to mind, don't read to much in to it.!!

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

I say kick in the teeth, you say punt in the teeth, they say a boot in the teeth! 3 ways of saying that a foot will come in to contact with someone's teeth. AS well i do agree with you had SE said nothing it would have been smooth sailing.

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That... is a fairly offensive analogy considering the context of the current discussion...

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Originally Posted by RoxyLalonde

That... is a fairly offensive analogy considering the context of the current discussion...

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Yeah. While I don't think he was implying anything, he could have chosen a better analogy lol.

The way I see it is if you take away the word "Marriage" you take away all of the negative connotations that holds. Those who would like to keep a specific definition of marriage can keep doing that, no matter how much anyone disagrees with it. If they create a system with a new name and its own background/lore then you can get around the "delicate issue". In addition to that, as other have suggested, it doesn't have to be explicitly romantic. If it can hold any number of meanings then you're not really going against anyone's beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Thread's not gonna die until it gets locked or a response lol.

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Thread still going because it has a misleading title, the other thread with the real title concerning the discussion got nuked and locked in a heartbeat that should give you an idea of SE's position about it.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Thread still going because it has a misleading title, the other thread with the real title concerning the discussion got nuked and locked in a heartbeat that should give you an idea of SE's position about it.

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By title the discussion should be about what we think of the marriage aspect as a whole. What the people are discussing is only one aspect. The SS aspect of the coin. Am thinking that SE has yet to take a read through and am sure this one would be gone in a heart beat.

Not only do i think SE has picked a side, but something tells me they are heaving second thoughts about what they let slip.

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Originally Posted by Syrokko

I mean, let's face it...
Nobody is going to avoid this game because it doesn't allow same-sex marriage.
On the other hand, there is a large possibility of a considerable number of prospective players who might avoid the game because they find certain aspects of it to be blasphemous/unethical/immoral and what-have-you.

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Whoa. Just so so horribly wrong..
In fact, accounts have already been canceled because of SE current stance, and we don't even know if it's there final decision...
Also as can be clearly seen from the poll... there is a "considerable number of prospective players who might avoid the game because they find certain aspects of it to be blasphemous/unethical/immoral".. IE banning SSM from the game.

See what I did there..?

Twiddle the fact that you argreed with the above completely biased and unsupported quoted statement destroyed any possible creditability you may have had in this arguement. Not that many people gave you much to begin with, but may have been at least able to follow your train of thought before.. now.. meh, whatever.

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Originally Posted by Exn

Whoa. Just so so horribly wrong..
In fact, accounts have already been canceled because of SE current stance, and we don't even know if it's there final decision...
Also as can be clearly seen from the poll... there is a "considerable number of prospective players who might avoid the game because they find certain aspects of it to be blasphemous/unethical/immoral".. IE banning SSM from the game.

See what I did there..?

Twiddle the fact that you argreed with the above completely biased and unsupported quoted statement destroyed any possible creditability you may have had in this arguement. Not that many people gave you much to begin with, but may have been at least able to follow your train of thought before.. now.. meh, whatever.

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just because of marriage? I mean your not going to stop gay players from gaming... they will still be there... I don't understand why letting 2 characters have a ceremony is such a big deal... there here in game there not going anywhere... get used to it? even without a wedding... I'll host weddings for couples even without s-e mandating it... go craft a level 50 ring and have it signed and I'll throw a large shindig... o.o and you know what everyone's gonna be happy...

If people are seriously going to cancel their account over not having same sex marriage in the game, then it's pretty evident they didn't have enough interest in the game in the first place, same goes for the other side. What an absolutely shitty thread. Both sides offer up claims with little or no evidence. I think this is just a side effect of people being anxious waiting until Alpha, because it would be pretty sad if people were legitimately this concerned over an extra title or whatever marriage will give you in a video game.

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Originally Posted by Exn

Twiddle the fact that you argreed with the above completely biased and unsupported quoted statement destroyed any possible creditability you may have had in this arguement. Not that many people gave you much to begin with, but may have been at least able to follow your train of thought before.. now.. meh, whatever.

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I know to well that Warlock's statement is as you say "completely biased and unsupported". However from a neutral stand point when you look at it seems to hold water. As for biased, i may be wrong here but i don't get the vibe that he is picking a side... Reason following my train of thought is hard is that i agree with both sides, and disagree on equal terms. There is valid points to be had from both sides of the argument.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

If people are seriously going to cancel their account over not having same sex marriage in the game, then it's pretty evident they didn't have enough interest in the game in the first place, same goes for the other side. What an absolutely shitty thread. Both sides offer up claims with little or no evidence. I think this is just a side effect of people being anxious waiting until Alpha, because it would be pretty sad if people were legitimately this concerned over an extra title or whatever marriage will give you in a video game.

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Seems like you missed the point. But as you probably have never had any vested intrest in the subject to begin with, that makes sense. Some people have cancelled their account over SE deciding to implement one (and term it 'marriage'), while preventing the other. SE decided to make this an issue in the first place, and then they chose a side. Naturally people will have a difference in opinion. Some players who may be huge fans of the game, and of the FF series in general, may have alot of interest in the subject to begin with, and feel very passionetly about it, because obviously in the real world it affects their everyday lives. That works for both sides of the arguement, so it should not be hard to comprehend that some people would rather just go support some other company that doesn't make a stance against something you may be passionate about, even if I personally don't feel that their decision should be taken so seriously.

Not sure what evidence you are talking about/looking for?? This is an arguement based on preferences, so.. yea...

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

If people are seriously going to cancel their account over not having same sex marriage in the game, then it's pretty evident they didn't have enough interest in the game in the first place, same goes for the other side. What an absolutely shitty thread. Both sides offer up claims with little or no evidence. I think this is just a side effect of people being anxious waiting until Alpha, because it would be pretty sad if people were legitimately this concerned over an extra title or whatever marriage will give you in a video game.

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I don't think I've ever heard of someone saying they're going to cancel their account (In this thread atleast, or anywhere else tbh. Feel free to bring some evidence to the table though -- that goes for anyone lol) because there's no SSM in game.


Originally, the thread started as a poll (Which you can check out in the first post), then turned into ideas on how we could make SSM work for everyone... it was a good thread I promise! lol

Again though, having SSM ingame also affects hetero couples, it's not about pushing an agenda, it's just that a lot of us believe that content should be available for everyone regardless of what characters you picked based on aesthetic choice without having to remake them just to take part in it.

Can't we just ignore Warlock, he's just trolling the thread anyways >_>

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

I know to well that Warlock's statement is as you say "completely biased and unsupported". However from a neutral stand point when you look at it seems to hold water. As for biased, i may be wrong here but i don't get the vibe that he is picking a side... Reason following my train of thought is hard is that i agree with both sides, and disagree on equal terms. There is valid points to be had from both sides of the argument.

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Understood. I do however definetly get the vibe that that poster is picking a side, not even subtly either..

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Originally Posted by Sorata

As an out gay 32 years old gay man, this sounds more like an insult. Call it a sensitive subject if you will but this is only a controversial topic when you want to make it controversial. In this particular situation, if SquareEnix just launch the marriage function that allows all the get married to whomever they like, without mentioning about this being a "controversy", people probably won't even make a big deal out of it.

Why must 10% of the population always have to fight for what should be for them to begin with. Politician use it as an agenda, religion use it as an controlling method. Now should I be rejoice and thank your company for ALLOWING same sex marriage in the game, if that day happens? Should I give the developer a hero cookie for giving me such a privilege?

There are people who already deactivated their account over this; and you have yourself to blame for making this a controversy.

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For Nix
Just an example from this thread re: your comment about not noticing anyone talking about canceling. (Not that I agree with canceling, just showing this)

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Originally Posted by Exn

For Nix
Just an example from this thread re: your comment about not noticing anyone talking about canceling. (Not that I agree with canceling, just showing this)

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Thanks Exn ^^, I'm curious who the people he knows are that have de-activated now lol. I know a lot of couples that are really hoping for SSM but they wouldn't leave the game if it wasn't in, so that kinda blindsided me a bit lol.

You're a star, thanks for finding the quote for me and have a fantastic day^^

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Originally Posted by Nix

I don't think I've ever heard of someone saying they're going to cancel their account.

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I present to you Exn:

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Originally Posted by Exn

Seems like you missed the point. But as you probably have never had any vested intrest in the subject to begin with, that makes sense. Some people have cancelled their account over SE deciding to implement one (and term it 'marriage'), while preventing the other.

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This is not reason enough to cancel account yet, to do so is to jump the gun before the bullet is in the tube. @ Sorata don't take this personally, i doubt that SE wants to single out any group with what was said. Quite the opposite, am thinking that SE is willing to get scrutinized, to keep the playing field fair. Else i don't think they would have said anything. You don't dig your self out of one whole to jump in another one...

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

This is not reason enough to cancel account yet, to do so is to jump the gun before the bullet is in the tube. @ Sorata don't take this personally, i doubt that SE wants to single out any group with what was said. Quite the opposite, am thinking that SE is willing to get scrutinized, to keep the playing field fair. Else i don't think they would have said anything. You don't dig your self out of one whole to jump in another one...

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For either side, it shouldn't be enough reason to cancel your account. As you yourself have said you know people who are going to cancel if SSM is in the game. I've read responses from a few people about it who are willing to cancel/pass over the game if things remain restricted. You lose people either way.

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

I know to well that Warlock's statement is as you say "completely biased and unsupported". However from a neutral stand point when you look at it seems to hold water. As for biased, i may be wrong here but i don't get the vibe that he is picking a side... Reason following my train of thought is hard is that i agree with both sides, and disagree on equal terms. There is valid points to be had from both sides of the argument.

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What you are doing is not neutrality. I find that your argument to moderation is anything but neutral, as your suggestions not only favors a side(for fear of offense by first "nations" then "people" then 12 folks in Canada who are supposedly offended by this and nothing else in the series...), it also claims there is no discussion, blaming either the dev team or the user for your inability to provide a true answer that satisfies both parties. Arcell's solution should have been more than enough.

As of right now, This is currently second to Reinheart's translation thread (congrats Loggos!!), and has been a popular thread for quite some time. There's still a point and purpose to this thread as people are still replying to it and would like to see a response from the dev team before the thread is closed.

Removing a gender restriction does not preclude the principled from playing FFXIV, it is a video game, the ceremony is as legally binding as Skyrim's or Everquest(which is not at all). Putting it in place doesn't prevent people of the same sex participating in the ceremony. It solely separates based in the player's avatar. That is not principle, that is feigning ignorance of today's gaming audience.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

For either side, it shouldn't be enough reason to cancel your account. As you yourself have said you know people who are going to cancel if SSM is in the game. I've read responses from a few people about it who are willing to cancel/pass over the game if things remain restricted. You lose people either way.

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Best solution would be to cancel weddings implementation in game , everyone pouts equally and move on but that's impossible for biased ppl that cling to w/e SE says is set on stone conveniently , if SE says no SSM then that's not set on stone and can be changed with feedback no matter the side you are at.

warlock i agree with you on that. since both sides are at fighting terms with each other on this subject, just dont implement marriage period.

For the love of all things holy.

This thread has 128 pages ><

I'm not going to read them all. I'm just going to throw in my 2 cents, hoping that they are worth almost as much as Gath's gil.

I support same sex marriage in game, because it is, after all, a game.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Best solution would be to cancel weddings implementation in game , everyone pouts equally and move on but that's impossible for biased ppl that cling to w/e SE says is set on stone conveniently , if SE says no SSM then that's not set on stone and can be changed with feedback no matter the side you are at.

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Or, since they've already invested time and resources into the system just call it something else. No skin off my nose if they decide to remove it all together but it would be a shame to see all that work go to waste.

I think this thread can be condensed into a few main points...

For:
>It's a game
>Human rights symbolisim
>Happens in nature, why not here?

Against:
>Unethical
>Against an IRL religion
>Real World publicity

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Originally Posted by Cedri

I think this thread can be condensed into a few main points...

For:
>It's a game
>Human rights symbolisim
>Happens in nature, why not here?

Against:
>Unethical
>Against an IRL religion
>Real World publicity

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The only problem with listing "ethics" as a point in either case is that it's highly arguable. One could argue that both sides are unethical.

Unethical was listed under Against because from following these posts I haven't seen THAT many posts in the For catigory that has stated that it was unethical to not allow SSM. However the word unethical has been tossed over at the For side multiple times.

Been saying it up to the company if they do it or not it’s their choice not ours in the matter. Instead you have people who like to force it upon companies that may hold traditional values to just change their view to match something they don’t agree with their philosophy, not being sensitive enough, whatever the case. This also can be applied to companies that do support ssm it none of straight person dam business if that company chose it to be that way as stated it there choice not anybody else’s.
They don’t see their just as guilty of doing the same actions as some any anti-gay groups in trying to force people to do something in what they believe in both are wrong in doing so and you will hear the same excuses as any other group the comes along with it. People tend to nitpick to the smallest details to match their views its human nature to. A video or a cut scene for this matter is something they may think seems sexually suggestive so that deems it gay or whatever term used and that deems the company supports it base off there comprehension of the subject.
Instead maybe the company acknowledge there is a group out there with different view that are this way give them a few cut scene etc. but don’t want to change their core view on marriage as man and women. As for square enix as a company who know what they will decide but if it goes against someone view as to something as marriage in a game seriously not going to stop me from playing it still.