Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

It was my hope, that we would gain more supportive abilities/traits as WHMs. Perhaps Haste?

However we have this element of RNG that in one case will only really benefit the tank (maybe, if the 20% procs) and a cool down ''management'' ability that is again not only based on RNG, but can not really be managed. Because you can't save the cool down if you need that quick heal right now (Assize and Tetra thus resetting it!) and since we don't have shields, using these abilities is often vital. Esp. if you are trying to weave in a little DPS.

I just think that its overly fussy and underwhelming. Lilies have been given to us but can rarely be used to its potential in practicality.
It's almost like they just want to to forget about it and take it like a bonus (maybe if it procs) instead of having a real ability. Isn't this what passive abilities are for?

These are my preliminary, pre-SB thoughts. I'm a bit sad about it as a WHM main.

So... I was reading through the JP posts where I found a comment that was interesting and something I was thinking of doing but was just too lazy...

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Originally Posted by motokotatibana

拡張発売で活動のメインは新規コンテンツよりになるのはわかるのですが、旧コンテンツで
白のスキル削減によりやれる事が少なすぎると感じます。

レベル５０まででみれば１６個　その内、エアロ、ストーンは統合で１４個、ダメ削除のアクア、
敵が寝るか怪しいリポーズ。　これに共通スキルですが今よりも性能が落ちているものばかり。

学１８個　内バイオ統合で１７個、　それに妖精スキル７個、共通１０
占１８個　コンパス統合１７個、　カード６種、共通１０

総数でみれば白２４個　学３４個　占３３個
アクアとリポが微妙な性能のままなら実質１２個しか固有がないのですが
しかもLV６６まで軽減スキル、バリアが１つも無い。
出来ることの数ってのはそのままジョブの性能差に繋がるんじゃないですかね。

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The quote is to give credit where credit is due. Translation (rough, I'm tired T_T) :

The poster is concerned because with the changing of traits and removal of stuff in the expansion, it felt like whm was losing out a lot more than the other healers especially in older content

WHM has 16 abilities up to level 50, if you compress stone and Aero, that ends up being 14 with 2 skills becoming rather useless: Fluid Aura and Repose. That and many of thier abilities were stripped into the cross class system.

Scholar has 18, 17 if you combine the Bios. Not to mention there are the 7 fairy abilities + the 10 cross class abilities.
Astro has 18, 17 if you combine the combusts, plus their 6 cards and the 10 cross class abilities.

In total: WHM: 24, SCH: 34, AST: 33
if you drop out their "useless" skills, WHM only has 12 abilities to use and no mitigation abilities until level 66 and not a single barrier.

Using my most recent parses for A12S, I cast Cure I/Cure II 15-20 times generally in each run. Over 10-11 minutes. Not even 1/10th of my time in the instance was spent casting either.

This means I'd average 3-4 lilies. The system is just utter garbage in comparison to what every other class has gotten. They could completely remove the lily gauge and everything that was added to use that system and WHMs likely wouldn't even notice them being missing, bar the absence of Stoneskin to make way for the sick joke that is Divine Benison.

WHM's design should be centered around reliability and consistency. Satisfying x condition should always result in y outcome. It shouldn't rely on RNG in any way whatsoever. That's AST's gig.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

[...] we would still be VIABLE in dungeon/ex trial content.

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Chances are, they will also be viable "healers" in Raid content, as in: They'll be able to heal the incoming damage.

And that's probably all that counts to SE. I'd not be surprised if they weren't even looking at what else you contribute.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

So... I was reading through the JP posts where I found a comment that was interesting and something I was thinking of doing but was just too lazy...


The quote is to give credit where credit is due. Translation (rough, I'm tired T_T) :

The poster is concerned because with the changing of traits and removal of stuff in the expansion, it felt like whm was losing out a lot more than the other healers especially in older content

WHM has 16 abilities up to level 50, if you compress stone and Aero, that ends up being 14 with 2 skills becoming rather useless: Fluid Aura and Repose. That and many of thier abilities were stripped into the cross class system.

Scholar has 18, 17 if you combine the Bios. Not to mention there are the 7 fairy abilities + the 10 cross class abilities.
Astro has 18, 17 if you combine the combusts, plus their 6 cards and the 10 cross class abilities.

In total: WHM: 24, SCH: 34, AST: 33
if you drop out their "useless" skills, WHM only has 12 abilities to use and no mitigation abilities until level 66 and not a single barrier.

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Kinda depressing to read that. Really thought they would have replaced the skills we had taken away with new stuff :(

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

This is going to trickle down hard. The truth is, despite how boring, how badly designed the lily system is, how bad we were gutted and how AST heals for more, mitigates for more and buffs for more than us, we would still be VIABLE in dungeon/ex trial content.

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Given how the community responds, i.e. skip Soar or disband. I wonder if the trickle down effect will spill out of Savage and into Extremes. I mean, farm groups are all about efficiency and White Mage... isn't. I wasn't around when Heavensward launched, so I can't say whether the initial blow back against Astro was that bad.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

In total: WHM: 24, SCH: 34, AST: 33
if you drop out their "useless" skills, WHM only has 12 abilities to use and no mitigation abilities until level 66 and not a single barrier.

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Wow. That is actually depressing to read. What is SE thinking, it's half the job it used to be...

We all migrated to yet ANNOOOTHER LOL WHM thread!!! We are gonna be doing this for next 15-19 days!!! :):cool:

I'm convinced that WHM is currently designed for players that can't handle or rather not handle the higher APM of an AST and a SCH. Therefore WHM can sufficiently complete all content and stands out in causal content (dungs and what not); but serious Core players with the aptitude for bigger and better will settle for AST/SCH compositions.

MIND YOU.... THE CURRENT DIFFERENCE IN OVERALL DPS GAINED ON AVG IS ONLY 3-5% for a AST/SCH comp over that of a WHM/SCH comp. (which is why i said we should go back to fighting with SCH for a spot in CORE raiding....but they f#$Ked around and gave them B*tch a$$ SCH a "Battle litany" on a shorter recast than the actual Battle litany:mad:....)

Nevertheless .. a 3-5% DPS increase while maintaining survival, can be the difference needed to completely skipping a mech (like A11S lapis phase or a Soar) which in turns adds potentially even more up-time and faster clears and safer clears since you have less mech to deal manage.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

When a tooltip says that you'll get a stack at a 20% chance by using Cure and Cure II, you don't need to spend months practicing it to realize it's garbage.

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But it's also true that the translations from many, MANY of the tooltips have been severely inaccurate. And everything is subject to change, especially if SE gets wind of the communities concern about what's happening with WHM.

People just need to be patient and wait until things have been solidified before making outright conclusions.

Its definitely possible that the way WHM is now won't be the case come the 16th. That's why I say if you haven't played it after the stormblood release, then refrain from acting as such.

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Originally Posted by Exira

I will answer the same as the other thread , you can analyze the healing as much as you want but the real problem is ... THERE IS NO CHALLENGING CONTENT.. basically the astro is strong(stroger?) as a whm , savage + extreme primals are really easy SO the only things u look for is utility! . Yoshida says Whm will be a pure healer? Paladin pure tank? WHERE IS THE CONTENT FOR THEM! both things are not needed at all for this simple reason!

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This. The moment people gear up the pure healer wont be needed anymore.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Wow. That is actually depressing to read. What is SE thinking, it's half the job it used to be...

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And literally a little over 2/3s of the other two healers.

And here's the break down for 60 and 70:

60

WHM 21 (18)
AST 23 (21) +6 cards
SCH 23 (22) +7 fairy

70

WHM 25 (21) <Stone 1-3 (-3) Aero 1 (-1)>
AST 27 (24) <Combust 1 (-1) Malefic 1-2 (-2)> + 8 cards
SCH 27 (25) <Bio (-1) Broil (-1)> + 8 Fairy (+Fey Union)

Total:

WHM 25 + 10 = 35
AST 27 + 10 + 8 = 47
SCH 27 + 10 + 8 = 47

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

But it's also true that the translations from many, MANY of the tooltips have been severely inaccurate. And everything is subject to change, especially if SE gets wind of the communities concern about what's happening with WHM.

People just need to be patient and wait until things have been solidified before making outright conclusions.

Its definitely possible that the way WHM is now won't be the case come the 16th. That's why I say if you haven't played it after the stormblood release, then refrain from acting as such.

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Did you read what you typed? "we need to wait for us to play SB" "SE may change something because what people are saying now"

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Did you read what you typed? "we need to wait for us to play SB" "SE may change something because what people are saying now"

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uuhhh... is there something confusing about what I said? Because of the concerns the community is having now, its possible that White Mage can be changed. So what we know of WHM right now may not be the case come SB. So it would be best for us to wait until it comes out before making any conclusions.

are you ok?

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

They need to rework this whole design =/

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Yeah, agreed. Something that would go a long way to fix it all would be to change the 20% proc rate to 100%.

It might sound OP, but if you've ever played WHM in the hardest content then your CD usage is planned, much in the same way tanks are. For example most of the time I generally use Tetragrammaton at the same points in any fight. If in 4.0 I randomly happen to have 1 or 2 lillies when I use it, it doesn't make any difference. I will still use them at the same points because the recast reduction can't be relied upon.

Everything being a 20% chance means it's dead on arrival. Things like cooldown reduction and extra potency on Plenury sound good on paper but because they are beyond the WHM's control they're rendered unreliable and ultimately useless.

I know people that have played it during the media tour. They've all said the job is absolute trash now compared to AST. But I think it's by choice. SE wants a "beginners" healer class that anyone can use to learn to heal. Experienced healers should aim to play AST or SCH, especially AST since that's sort of like WHM with a 2nd job crystal right now.

All this doom and gloom...and yet we have not seen the ENCOUNTERS yet. How much you want to bet there will be encounters created that the community discovers will be significantly easier with a white mage because of X...all of a sudden, the complaints shift from WHM is not part of the "meta" to people complaining they need to switch healing jobs on a per fight basis (and maintain 2 sets of gear.) WHM looks GREAT for 4-man and 24-man content...I really need to level one :/

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

uuhhh... is there something confusing about what I said? Because of the concerns the community is having now, its possible that White Mage can be changed. So what we know of WHM right now may not be the case come SB. So it would be best for us to wait until it comes out before making any conclusions.

are you ok?

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You said that we should wait. That we shouldn't complain or jump to conclusions.
But you also said that if we remain vocal, SE might change stuff around.

So, what do you want to say? We shut up or we raise our voice? It can't be both.

The system is BAD for mp management. Why?
20% chance for confession/Lillies
As of now:
Cure I: 442
Cure II: 884
Medica:1237
Medica 2:1502
Regen: 618
So, while you're busy spamming either of the cures, you only need 2xCureII to have more mp wasted than one medica2. And 20% means you'll be spamming cure I, right? Well, only 4x means you wasted more Mp than one medica2.
But what about Free Cure? Well, has a 15% chance of popping.
Which means your new mechanic wants you to waste mp for shorter cooldowns which kind of isn't a good trade. Who cares if the regen is abit overkill sometimes? Still less mp wasted than Cure spamming, so who cares.

WHEN do I use cure 1/2? When somewhere, a lone perosn has damage and nobody else. Otherwise I just pop a medica 2+regen(on the tank) and be done with it. The FIRST thing I do if Tank a lot of damage? Tetragrammaton. If on Cooldown and it happens, Cure1/2.
Okay then, I'm not gonna bend backwards to use that system.

The MP management is good if you just pretend lillies don't exist. Which is looking like the way to go about WHM until it's inevitably adjusted.

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Originally Posted by fantasticm

... We get one useful skill over the course of 10 levels, Thin Air.

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That name is SO VERY appropriate for the thing we get in this expansion.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

Because of the concerns the community is having now, its possible that White Mage can be changed. So what we know of WHM right now may not be the case come SB. So it would be best for us to wait until it comes out before making any conclusions.

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If we don't voice these concerns then SE wouldn't have any idea that we had them. The more WHM here on the forums going 'I do not like the look of this' the more chances we have that the A) Tweak potency/percentages/timers in the two weeks they've still got or B) Start planning tweaks to implement in future patches.

There are enough signs of smoke to point to something being wrong without ever having played it. I'm still going to level my WHM because it's my main job but I have some justified concerns about the double RNG on my lv 70 ability AND the fact that I no longer can plan my cooldowns for best case use.

I agree with you. I have loved being whm. I do not love the new changes that are coming. Hopefully we will see some changes to improve whm way past what we've seen so far.

I'm going to play as white mage (healing holes), dragoon (making holes) and learning to tank as paladin (preventing holes). Gonna also gather and craft...

I wanna be salty but can't - too excited for new exploring and story...

''honing their skills by playing''

Hahaha I never get much further than stupid statements like this. There is nothing even remotely skilled about this game, or any other 'game' for that matter. Get over yourself. Or better yet, pick up some actual skills.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You said that we should wait. That we shouldn't complain or jump to conclusions.
But you also said that if we remain vocal, SE might change stuff around.

So, what do you want to say? We shut up or we raise our voice? It can't be both.

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The problem is most are not voicing concerns or even acknowledging that things could change. They are making definitive declarative statements that the white Mage is dead. They have written off the class without even trying it themselves. Sure they could be right, but they could just as easily be wrong. Being concerned is one thing, however all of the saying the sky is not falling, but has already fallen posts are premature based on what we know.

Edit. I'm more concerned at this point of it being a self fulfilling prophecy compared to the actual state of the class.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

The problem is most are not voicing concerns or even acknowledging that things could change. They are making definitive declarative statements that the white Mage is dead. They have written off the class without even trying it themselves. Sure they could be right, but they could just as easily be wrong. Being concerned is one thing, however all of the saying is not falling, but has already fallen posts are premature based on what we know.

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Would you feel better if everyone posting put "Disclaimer: Things could change." at the bottom of their post? I would think one would not need to acknowledge the obvious.... but if it would help....

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Would you feel better if everyone posting put "Disclaimer: Things could change." at the bottom of their post? I would think one would not need to acknowledge the obvious.... but if it would help....

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I would prefer the stopping of the arguments stating things as fact prior to the launch. Especially since we know some of the tool tips have been incorrect. Come launch if it truly is as it appears then fire away. As a seasoned tester I can honestly say based on my experience the up roar without actually trying the class out will not sway many developers.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

In total: WHM: 24, SCH: 34, AST: 33
if you drop out their "useless" skills, WHM only has 12 abilities to use and no mitigation abilities until level 66 and not a single barrier.

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I was actually just combing through all the changes and compiling the differences in abilities. There's a difference between combating button bloat and stripping a class down to the skeleton. I guess what really chafes me is that we STILL have a now even more worthless Fluid Aura and Repose (i.e. the skill we used once for a quest and didn't even leave on our hotbars).

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I would prefer the stopping of the arguments stating things as fact prior to the launch. Especially since we know some of the tool tips have been incorrect. Come launch if it truly is as it appears then fire away. As a seasoned tester I can honestly say based on my experience the up roar without actually trying the class out will not sway many developers.

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As a seasoned tester you should know it is easier/wiser to fix potential problems BEFORE they occur, not clean up the mess afterwards and the only way they are alerted to potential problems is by people speaking up. Do I agree with all the dramatics? No, but I agree even less with people that imply everyone should shut up until the 16th.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You said that we should wait. That we shouldn't complain or jump to conclusions.
But you also said that if we remain vocal, SE might change stuff around.

So, what do you want to say? We shut up or we raise our voice? It can't be both.

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I never said anything about not voicing concerns or complaining. I am all for that. We should always voice our concerns when things are not looking good.

Thats not what I have an issue with.

Completely writing off WHM, treating it as if its a lost cause, and making definitive decisions about the fate of WHM before actually seeing a fully finished release version of it is premature.

Voice your concerns, share your opinions, and pray that the dev team hears you. But don't say that the cake is nasty and should be thrown out entirely before you even had the chance to taste the finished product.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

If we don't voice these concerns then SE wouldn't have any idea that we had them. The more WHM here on the forums going 'I do not like the look of this' the more chances we have that the A) Tweak potency/percentages/timers in the two weeks they've still got or B) Start planning tweaks to implement in future patches.

There are enough signs of smoke to point to something being wrong without ever having played it. I'm still going to level my WHM because it's my main job but I have some justified concerns about the double RNG on my lv 70 ability AND the fact that I no longer can plan my cooldowns for best case use.

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See above.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

As a seasoned tester you should know it is easier/wiser to fix problems BEFORE they occur, not clean up the mess afterwards.

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This complete crap and you know it. Without having metrics there is no proof it is a problem other than the perceptions and preconceived notions of players prior to any real testing. Furthermore, if it is as bad as seems the testers should already be providing said feedback.

Again I'm not saying you should not be concerned and not give opinions, but they should be constructive and not laden with the we are doomed language pervasive in most of the posts regarding the white Mage.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

This complete crap and you know it. Without having metrics there is no proof it is a problem other than the perceptions and preconceived notions of players prior to any real testing. Furthermore, if it is as bad as seems the testers should already be providing said feedback.

Again I'm not saying you should not be concerned and not give opinions, but they should be constructive and not laden with the we are doomed language pervasive in the most of the posts regarding the white Mage.

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Yes, constructive would be better... I am sure you have been around long enough to realize what should be is rarely what is.

That aside, the comments are not coming from thin air. People didn't just look at a few tooltips and decide the sky is falling. They are basing it off people whose opinion they know/respect that have seen the changes live that are basically saying "guys, this doesn't look good".

I'm still new to this forum so I didn't search for other threads but u are right

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Yes, constructive would be better... I am sure you have been around long enough to realize what should be is rarely what is.

That aside, the comments are not coming from thin air. People didn't just look at a few tooltips and decide the sky is falling. They are basing it off people whose opinion they know/respect that have seen the changes live that are basically saying "guys, this doesn't look good".

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And those people admitted that they had very limited time with the new class designs. So take it as a first impression and not the whole truth.

A couple even stated they didn't see what they wanted to see for the class. That alone could have colored any objectivity.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

And those people admitted that they had very limited time with the new class designs. So take it as a first impression and not the whole truth.

A couple even stated they didn't see what they wanted to see for the class. That alone could have colored any objectivity.

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Sure, and it's not so much that I disagree with you, but rather I understand/accept where people coming from and know telling them to "Calm down!" will do nothing more than fan the flames. :P

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Originally Posted by Feidam

This complete crap and you know it. Without having metrics there is no proof it is a problem other than the perceptions and preconceived notions of players prior to any real testing. Furthermore, if it is as bad as seems the testers should already be providing said feedback.

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Knowing that there is a potential problem means you can investigate it. As an example, if every skilled WHM tells you that Cure/Cure II is the least efficient spell to be casting and your new WHM system revolves around those two skills then maybe you can consider changing that system. However, if you (as the dev team) know that the content is tuned to output significantly higher damage than before then maybe you think "well, the community isn't right because they don't know this thing we know so we don't need to change it". It's significantly better to complain now with the potential of your complaints causing them to realize that maybe the decision they made isn't all that good rather than waiting til release to find out it's actually as bad as you feared and now your job will suffer until they fix it.

Better still would be to have a PTR but I doubt that's ever gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

But it's also true that the translations from many, MANY of the tooltips have been severely inaccurate. And everything is subject to change, especially if SE gets wind of the communities concern about what's happening with WHM.

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We all can access the JP tooltips anytime by going to Famitsu, the tooltips of lilies say the same in JP as well, so the translation argument holds no weight when you can easily check the source info by yourself.

Yes, everything is subject to change, but it's good that the community voices the direction they want that change to take, because even if they tweak the proc rate of lilies WHM as a whole would still not be very useful, not party interaction, no reason to use WHM over AST or SCH.

I'd say the reaction is close enough to having a PTR though

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

I never said anything about not voicing concerns or complaining. I am all for that. We should always voice our concerns when things are not looking good.

Voice your concerns, share your opinions, and pray that the dev team hears you. But don't say that the cake is nasty and should be thrown out entirely before you even had the chance to taste the finished product.

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This is us voicing our concerns. Some people are far more hyperbolic about it than others. As optimistic as I am, I am very worried about the fact that WHM has ten fewer abilities than either SCH or AST (counting cards and fairy abilities). We donated the most to the cross role (which I understand since we were the template healer class) but they didn't give us anything in return for it. I'm not saying the cake is nasty, I'm just wondering why it's single layer, burnt, and lacking frosting.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Better still would be to have a PTR but I doubt that's ever gonna happen.

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Here's the thing we don't really know this based on the new changes. We know it based on the current version. However, those running numbers and giving opinions are more credible imo. However, even then cure and cure2 could become the most efficient based on the new lily system and the new confession mechanic. We just do not have any proof yet that it doesn't because we can not even be sure we have the right info without having the most current testing info.

Also, I do think a ptr would be of benefit to the game. Even then, though, the ptr is not usually used to test an expansion.

On a side note my personal wish is the lily system would empower utility spells for the whm but alas that is not the route they took.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Here's the thing we don't really know this based on the new changes. We know it based on the current version. However, those running numbers and giving opinions are more credible imo. However, even then cure and cure2 could become the most efficient based on the new lily system and the new confession mechanic. We just do not have any proof yet that it doesn't because we can not even be sure we have the right info without having the most current testing info.

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Maybe we should get this out of the way first then, exactly what is the official amount of time should we have with the new changes before voicing our concerns?