Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

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Originally Posted by EverQuest

Style > substance is the way to go.

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Lul.

Training dummies that look like Bahamut are indeed fun and engaging.

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

If I learned one thing about the FFXIV community, is that players want to get things done as quickly and efficiently as possible. While a dungeon with puzzles is definitely favorable, when players are presented with either choosing dungeons with more effort vs ones that are easier to complete, they're going to choose the latter. The biggest proof of this is whenever there's a Moogle Tome Event, almost everyone chooses the same 1 or 2 instances to get the most number of tomes in the shortest amount of time. Varity be damned. So, while making dungeons with branching pathways and puzzles is good during your first playthrough, running it daily, getting sick of it, then abandoning it for easier dungeons, is just a waste of resources. I see the scenario with that:

1st run: "Wow, that was a really fun dungeon. We had to work together, get the right number of items, and figure out how to find the correct pathway to the bosses. I really like the variety of options here."
100th run: "They need to give us an option to opt out of this part. I don't feel like carrying every group and this place EASILY could've taken 10 minutes to finish with just 1 pathway. I'm sick of these puzzles."

or

*Enters duty*
"Oh, it's this place."
*Leaves duty*

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I would atrribute that due to having to run outdated, boring content.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

I would atrribute that due to having to run outdated, boring content.

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No offense, but what are you expecting? This is an ongoing, online game, where the content was made to be replayed over and over. Even Wanderer's Palace was fresh, new content at one point. And eventually Endwalker will become "outdated, boring content."

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

Same goes for FF14. I've done every dungeon in the game scaled down throughout playing and I can safely say I see nothing in the older dungeon design that would've ever made them complex.

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Allow me to introduce you to the Nanawa Mines:

https://i.imgur.com/15UMwzc.jpg

Or the Mun-Tuy Cellars:

https://i.imgur.com/0zeGF6V.jpg

The original Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold weren't nearly so complicated as those two, but the 1.x versions were certainly worlds more complicated (and larger) than their current incarnations.

Now, I'm not saying that these were good dungeon designs -- witness my own posts in this thread from a few months back about the flaws in 1.x dungeon design -- but I definitely think they count as complex.

HOWEVER, as noted, people generally didn't go through the entirety of those dungeons, at least in my experience. They tended to figure out what the optimal path was and then take that path, consistently, avoiding all the side passages and optional stuff.

The original Aurum Vale had three potential diremite bosses to fight -- three variations on the boss currently there. And if you were good, you could get every photocell and open every pathway and fight all three diremites and get loot from each! But basically everyone I know ended up taking one specific route -- the shortest one -- to get from the entrance to a specific diremite as quickly as possible, get the loot from that, and leaving.

Yeah, single hallways are more accessible. But we've also demonstrated that, as a playerbase, if the devs give us a complicated dungeon we'll figure out a way to turn it into a single hallway full of enemies leading to a boss fight anyway. Because that's the fastest way to get the shiny prize at the end, and we as a playerbase seem kind of fixated on optimizing our instanced duties.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of this. I just have concerns about practicality. The inevitable result is that people will always go for the most efficient route of completing a dungeon. If people don't need the explore something, then they will rarely bother to do such. I can pretty much use Haukke Manor as a feeble example of this.

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See above.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Allow me to introduce you to the Nanawa Mines:

https://i.imgur.com/15UMwzc.jpg

Or the Mun-Tuy Cellars:

https://i.imgur.com/0zeGF6V.jpg

The original Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold weren't nearly so complicated as those two, but the 1.x versions were certainly worlds more complicated (and larger) than their current incarnations.

Now, I'm not saying that these were good dungeon designs -- witness my own posts in this thread from a few months back about the flaws in 1.x dungeon design -- but I definitely think they count as complex.

HOWEVER, as noted, people generally didn't go through the entirety of those dungeons, at least in my experience. They tended to figure out what the optimal path was and then take that path, consistently, avoiding all the side passages and optional stuff.

The original Aurum Vale had three potential diremite bosses to fight -- three variations on the boss currently there. And if you were good, you could get every photocell and open every pathway and fight all three diremites and get loot from each! But basically everyone I know ended up taking one specific route -- the shortest one -- to get from the entrance to a specific diremite as quickly as possible, get the loot from that, and leaving.

Yeah, single hallways are more accessible. But we've also demonstrated that, as a playerbase, if the devs give us a complicated dungeon we'll figure out a way to turn it into a single hallway full of enemies leading to a boss fight anyway. Because that's the fastest way to get the shiny prize at the end, and we as a playerbase seem kind of fixated on optimizing our instanced duties.



See above.

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And that's literally THE reason why our dungeons have been hallways. It's not because the devs are "lazy," but there's no point in making a complex dungeon, where the playerbase will just stick to the fastest route. Yeah, it'd have more options, it's a waste of resources to design so many routes that go unused

Edit: And to add to this, this is also why AST's cards had become so streamlined. Its been said a million times, but I'll say it again: The constant fishing for Balance + Aoe and nothing else has resulted us getting just that

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

No offense, but what are you expecting? This is an ongoing, online game, where the content was made to be replayed over and over. Even Wanderer's Palace was fresh, new content at one point. And eventually Endwalker will become "outdated, boring content."

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Not create events that revolve around running years old content?

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

And that's literally THE reason why our dungeons have been hallways. It's not because the devs are "lazy," but there's no point in making a complex dungeon, where the playerbase will just stick to the fastest route. Yeah, it'd have more options, it's a waste of resources to design so many routes that go unused

Edit: And to add to this, this is also why AST's cards had become so streamlined. Its been said a million times, but I'll say it again: The constant fishing for Balance + Aoe and nothing else has resulted us getting just that

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Part of it is japanese level design. It's terrible. Also, Blackrock Depths from vanilla WoW is to this day, one of the best dungeons created. There is a point. To have a fun and engaging experience. Granted, a good portion of the gaming community of today has been conditioned to only enjoy something, if it gives that dopamine kick (tacked on reward). Not for running the content itself.

Halo Infinite is having this discussion right now. You have those, that play the game because they enjoy it, regardless of what the cosmetic/progression system is. Because they enjoy playing the game. Then you have those, that can only find enjoyment in the game, if the progression and cosmetics is right.

Another example is Choreghast *Torghast* from WoW. The content itself sucked, but people ran it because it was the only way to upgrade/acquire legendaries. Make the content have people want to waste their lives on it, as opposed to having it feel like boring chore.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Not create events that revolve around running years old content?

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Tbf, by the time you get to where those tasks are given reward (via relic quests or whatnot), the endgame content would feel just as loathesome for having been so often repeated.

The ideal solution to me would be to just make the old content feel less crippled by comparison, such by up-scaling it instead of level syncing down to it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tbf, by the time you get to where those tasks are given reward (via relic quests or whatnot), the endgame content would feel just as loathesome for having been so often repeated.

The ideal solution to me would be to just make the old content feel less crippled by comparison, such by up-scaling it instead of level syncing down to it.

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That would be cool. Or at least make it so we don't lose abilities upon entering a lower level area.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

The original Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold weren't nearly so complicated as those two, but the 1.x versions were certainly worlds more complicated (and larger) than their current incarnations.

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Those weren't dungeons/instances. They were just zones with higher level mobs than their surrounding areas.

Sastasha was probably the best example of these as "delves", as mob levels climbed rapidly, iirc, as you went deeper down. (Again, not an instance -- just a zone.)