Yoshi-P on Character Growth

Are you really trying to compare 2.1, the game's first every major patch, to 3.4, a patch that's near the middle of an expansion? Of course the first one will bring in major changes and systems...but even then, 3.4 does a lot of that too.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Look at what they gave us in 2.1...
A new primal

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Sophia is coming. May I also add that the Eikons are entirely separate from the main story in Heavensward so there's additional work created in terms of plot.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

4 EX primals

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4? I believe it was 3; Ifrit, Garuda and Titan, with Ifrit being almost rehashed from 1.X and Garuda's and Titan's already developed as well in that timespan. Moogles came in 2.2. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I may be forgetting something.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Crystal Tower (with the brand new alliance system)

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And 3.4 is getting Alexander, The Creator.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Wolve's Den (with a whole lot of new skills)

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3.4 is getting duels as well as a spectator system.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Housing

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Apartments are coming.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hildibrand

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There's going to be more Hildibrand quests coming as well.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

lots of QoL/HUD ajustements

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One thing from 3.4 trumps anything QoL changes 2.1 made. Right Click > Report. There's still a lot more, including cooldown reset and healer LB3. Don't forget the W cross hotbar coming as well.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

job adjustments (with a new real WAR)

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Astrologian is getting quite the buff, not to mention a slew of other skills aimed at PvP and general balance.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Treasure Hunts

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Deep dungeon is getting 150 extra floors.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

the party finder system, the join-in-progress system, the commendation system (and vote kick)

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All expected system updates for a game's first major patch, and not really content as it is a QoL improvement.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

the aesthetician

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New haircuts are being released. And the implementation of Jandelaine is nothing spectacular when it's essentially just a watered down character creator that can be accessed in-game.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Beast tribe quests

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No beast tribe introduced this patch.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

lots of new recipes

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But as many as 3.4 is getting? I think not.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

...and 3 dungeons

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3.4 is only getting 2 dungeons....while also getting

• Updated Scholasticate quests
• Grand Company promotions
• Squadrons
• Golden Saucer adjustments and updates
• Wondrous Tails

Yea, I'm really feeling the loss of the one dungeon's worth of content from the game now.

Well, but nothing is ever good enough when you're a hater, we must understand that. It's some sort of a lifestyle.

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

Well, but nothing is ever good enough when you're a hater, we must understand that. It's some sort of a lifestyle.

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Already Said what i feel about People saying this. There is a difference wanting the game to improve than being a hater.
Complains Will happen when People arent satisfied. Why doesnt People remember what he Said about that. Dont forget complaints have made changes in this game and also brought life from 1xx.

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Originally Posted by tjw

Are you really trying to compare 2.1, the game's first every major patch, to 3.4, a patch that's near the middle of an expansion?

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You can compare 2.1 to 3.1, it's the same...and 3.1 came way later after HW

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Originally Posted by tjw

Sophia is coming. May I also add that the Eikons are entirely separate from the main story in Heavensward so there's additional work created in terms of plot.

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Primals EX also had their "story". And Moogle Mog came in 2.1

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Originally Posted by tjw

4? I believe it was 3

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Ifrit, Garuda, Titan and Ultima

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Originally Posted by tjw

And 3.4 is getting Alexander, The Creator.

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Crystal Tower was the first 24-man raid, it needed more tweaks and the whole alliance creation.

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Originally Posted by tjw

3.4 is getting duels as well as a spectator system.

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By just reusing everything that already exists.

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Originally Posted by tjw

Apartments are coming.

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And will reuse the housing/personal room system. Now real new design.

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Originally Posted by tjw

There's going to be more Hildibrand quests coming as well.

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Two...quests :( For the record, during the whole 2.x time, Hilbidrand gave us 3 trials.

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Originally Posted by tjw

One thing from 3.4 trumps anything QoL changes 2.1 made. Right Click > Report.

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Report...vote kick...which one is more useful ? :p

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Originally Posted by tjw

Deep dungeon is getting 150 extra floors.

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Not in 3.4 but 3.45, one and a half month later.

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Originally Posted by tjw

All expected system updates for a game's first major patch, and not really content as it is a QoL improvement.

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Lots of barebone system, upon which new content will be build. So, less design work to do.

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Originally Posted by tjw

No beast tribe introduced this patch.

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None also in the next patch...
[QUOTE=tjw;3864051]
3.4 is only getting 2 dungeons....while also getting

• Updated Scholasticate quests
• Grand Company promotions
• Squadrons
• Golden Saucer adjustments and updates
• Wondrous Tails

i.e no new instance, only reusing that which already exists in the game. But I admit, Wondrous Tail can be an interesting incentive to do older content.

I don't say 3.4 has nothing for it, but I don't feel we're really getting "more" for what we have less. And we also still have the same grinding system over and over. How many different tomestones will they create in the end ?

I would also like to add that some people who claim that everything is perfect with Yoshi P and that its just the typical a few days before patch effect. The next Patch would last players tops 3 weeks. The hardcore playerbase will beat it in 1-2 days while the rest of you might need 3 weeks then you are back to the hamsterwheel effect that you guys claim is so flawless.
Its just sad to see that Yoshi P doesnt have a vision to shape players through content but adapting to everyone spoiling them just because they pay for a subscription.
A large scale of this community is infected by players who have come here from WoW (this beeing their second mmorpg or something).
These are the same players who play a certain way comparing this game too much to WoW and Yoshi P continues to provide content similiar to WoW.
How many times havent you guys heard people say oh this reminds me so much of WoW thats why I'm here?
I will repeat something I've said before. Do you go buy a Street Fighter game because it reminds you so much of a Tekken gameplay?
That should speak for FFXIV aswell. Adapting too much to everything wont make it genuine it will just provide an MMORPG that has what everyone else has instead of sticking to its own flagship.
Borrowing ideas isnt bad but they are not perfected exactly its more a copy paste from what other MMORPGs have done because that works.
No risks taken whatsoever to actually do something good.
Spare me the 1.0 arguements and this isnt FFXI 2.0 either you guys always playing thoese cards never win.
1.0 had features that should have reamined here and FFXI had features that should have been used here instead of using everything else from other MMORPGs.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

-snip-

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Then why bring up 2.1 if you're not comparing it to 3.4? Compare 2.4 to 3.4, in which case I think 3.4 is expanding far more upon the game than 2.4 did.

You can be as cynical as you want to be, because in the end everything is re-used assets. Pretty sure the new cutscenes, gear, layouts and systems needed for the new stuff don't matter, because it's all about the new instances.

There won't be pleasing you at all unless they make extreme changes, because even them trying out new things is just "No new instances", therefore it isn't new content. -shrug-

The tomestone system is staying, but the method you get to the tomestones is constantly being updated and expanded upon. It's your choice if all you see is the shiny at the end and not appreciating the process, particularly with the variety available.

There's plenty to criticise (for example, the complete canning of WHM in 3.4's endgame scene), but in my opinion, the various amount of content isn't. I personally feel that the lack of a dungeon (which, btw, wouldn't have done much to expand on the grind) has been put to good use at experimenting with other choices.

And fyi, I find RMT bots more annoying than shitty DPS. I can carry a bad tank or DPS. I can't carry RMT bots.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You entirely missed my point regarding that. I'm well aware the RP icon is a simple graphic. The point was that if he is attempting to make all demographics of this game he isn't doing it.

Players wanted dungeon crawling, they got it
RPers wanted RP icon, they got it
PvPers wanted dueling, they got it
House keeping players wanted apartments, they got it AND aquariums

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind, at first it was it wouldn't work with how 14 was developed, same excuse as to why something like PotD wouldn't work, but that was proven wrong. Now it's Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it because it takes to long, if he scraped some content that is dead on arrival such as squadrons and the new diadem, he would have ample time to think up a barebones build system, after all PotD is a very barebones dungeon crawler and people are enjoying that.

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And my answer remains the same. You are still comparing apples and oranges. Character builds would essentially necessitate overhauling the entire character infrastructure. First and foremost, this is simply not possible in a patch cycle due to the cost and scope. Second, what does it actually accomplish? Okay, wonderful. We have character skill trees or means of influencing our stats. Within two weeks MrHappy, Xeno, Dervy, Mizzteq and every other guide maker on Youtube will produce videos on what the best allocations are for each of their preferred jobs and everyone will copy it.

This is where the illusion of choice argument comes into play. Horizontal progression looks interesting on the surface but community demands rarely allow for experimentation. Sure, you can take a sub-optimal build. But why? You would be knowingly gimping yourself.

I am not necessarily against the idea. However, far too often do people look to horizontal progression as this wondrous feature that will revolutionize the game and make us care about advancing our characters when it won't. Are their ways you can borrow elements from it? Yes. But strictly horizontal just doesn't work in multiple games that rely on raw numbers.

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Originally Posted by tjw

Then why bring up 2.1 if you're not comparing it to 3.4? Compare 2.4 to 3.4, in which case I think 3.4 is expanding far more upon the game than 2.4 did.

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Really ? You really want to compare 3.4 to 2.4 ? You're serious ?
Ok...2.4 brought us a new primal, the last tier of Bahamut, a trial with Hildibrand, 3 new dungeons, housing subward, indoor cooking, lots of new PvP stuff...and a new job

Not everything is reused assets, but the more you have, the less time it takes to develop content...so, we should have much more things to do.

You still get the tomestones the same way...Duty Roulette over and over...and yes doing the same two expert dungeons each day for 3 months straigth quickly become boring...

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You entirely missed my point regarding that. I'm well aware the RP icon is a simple graphic. The point was that if he is attempting to make all demographics of this game he isn't doing it.

Players wanted dungeon crawling, they got it
RPers wanted RP icon, they got it
PvPers wanted dueling, they got it
House keeping players wanted apartments, they got it AND aquariums

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind, at first it was it wouldn't work with how 14 was developed, same excuse as to why something like PotD wouldn't work, but that was proven wrong. Now it's Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it because it takes to long, if he scraped some content that is dead on arrival such as squadrons and the new diadem, he would have ample time to think up a barebones build system, after all PotD is a very barebones dungeon crawler and people are enjoying that.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And my answer remains the same. You are still comparing apples and oranges. Character builds would essentially necessitate overhauling the entire character infrastructure. First and foremost, this is simply not possible in a patch cycle due to the cost and scope. Second, what does it actually accomplish? Okay, wonderful. We have character skill trees or means of influencing our stats. Within two weeks MrHappy, Xeno, Dervy, Mizzteq and every other guide maker on Youtube will produce videos on what the best allocations are for each of their preferred jobs and everyone will copy it.

This is where the illusion of choice argument comes into play. Horizontal progression looks interesting on the surface but community demands rarely allow for experimentation. Sure, you can take a sub-optimal build. But why? You would be knowingly gimping yourself.

I am not necessarily against the idea. However, far too often do people look to horizontal progression as this wondrous feature that will revolutionize the game and make us care about advancing our characters when it won't. Are their ways you can borrow elements from it? Yes. But strictly horizontal just doesn't work in multiple games that rely on raw numbers.

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It is only illusion because the game dictates that. If the game wants strong party play and dependence on one another as the core. Any deviation from the set strength of each job takes away from the job it is supposed to depend on. For example if Black Mage could heal or tank close to as good as White Mage or Paladin, then the need for dependency is lessened.

As for gimping yourself, that all depends on the content. If damage as a DPS was not the sole purpose of a DPS and encounters were tuned to be punishing and required you to do things besides damage or an occasional control action. Then the other means of progressing would not be an illusion, but a choice. Bare in mind that this is a group based game and most things are locked behind instances and level caps.

If there was solo/low man open world content or instanced content with encounters that damage alone could not get you past and you would die often, (no squishies)then different builds would be a real choice not some illusion. Here in this game it doesn't fit how it is. It would be an illusion here because of the trinity and the wanting of grouping to be the main source of playing. The experimental type of builds is where classes could shine if everything wasn't tuned to group play.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Really ? You really want to compare 3.4 to 2.4 ? You're serious ?
Ok...2.4 brought us a new primal, the last tier of Bahamut, a trial with Hildibrand, 3 new dungeons, housing subward, indoor cooking, lots of new PvP stuff...and a new job

Not everything is reused assets, but the more you have, the less time it takes to develop content...so, we should have much more things to do.

You still get the tomestones the same way...Duty Roulette over and over...and yes doing the same two expert dungeons each day for 3 months straigth quickly become boring...

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Welcome to gaming as a whole. Very few games rebuild from the ground up-- instead preferring to reuse assets to reduce costs. There isn't a purpose to overhauling housing for apartments when they already have assets that accomplish the exact same thing. Three dungeons stopped so allow development on new content. Alexander and Bahamut are essentially a watch and Hildibrand only returned in Heavensward due to fan demand. His story was never intended for the expansion, thus why it isn't as in-depth anymore.

Of course you do. Even if this system were to change in the future, it certainly wouldn't happen in a patch cycle. Developments of that significance are held off for expansions due to their cost.