I think its time BRD get some loving

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

stuff

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Why do bards need any type of change if they already play a vital party role and do very similar numbers when played at the same skill level as other dps classes even when playing songs as they should? If the dmg debuff bothers ppl that much tell your healers to manage mp better and save BV for paeon. There is no need for any change.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

Why do bards need any type of change if they already play a vital party role and do very similar numbers when played at the same skill level as other dps classes even when playing songs as they should? If the dmg debuff bothers ppl that much tell your healers to manage mp better and save BV for paeon. There is no need for any change.

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It is not as vital as people try to make out in here or required at all quite often, it is 'preferred' during training for a lot of groups and sure many times they are kept in once learned but mostly because of becoming friends with the rest of the static rather than what they bring to the group at that stage. I also disagree about the DPS output being 'similar' when equally geared and skilled at the class compared to quite a few of the other DPS classes.

Your arguing about 'need' when I clearly said it is a want for me personally which would increase my enjoyment of the class while not throwing either the group or the game out of balance, even though it is not a need but to me being a want shouldn't be ignored just because it is not a 'need'. I think SE should be capable of catering to both needs and wants as long as does not break the game which I do not see the suggestions here doing.

My point of view is it may not be needed, it may be something I just would like because it would enhance my enjoyment of the class I play but the debuff itself serves little to no purpose in my opinion. It is an additional punishment that lowers our DPS more than it already is for no good reason. The debuff does not impact group composition or balance really. The impact of decreasing that debuff or better yet replacing it with a debuff that does not target our DPS, perhaps our resource management or mobility debuff would be preferred.

I do not think I need to prove such changes are required/needed but what I do think I should do is show such changes would be appreciated especially if do not do the things people opposed to the suggestions are being melodramatic and hyperbolic about. If it does not damage balance or group composition which I do not think does, plus show people would appreciate such minor changes then I see no major reason to not take it on board and for SE to perhaps make such changes.

Doing so would not make bards OP or affect group composition but it might make bards in general feel better about playing the class. Other people argued about the WD aspect and I only originally came in to talk about the debuff, but I see no harm in SE listening to the suggestion about WD and taking it on board. Something for them to think about and re-evaluate. So it is not about proving it is needed, it is about proving it is wanted and would not negatively damage the balance or group dynamics.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

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Just to add onto this, I don't even find myself playing ballad in T10 anymore since the raid has gotten more accustomed to avoiding a good chunk of damage from tailswipes and tethers. This was well around the same ilvl too. Paeon wouldn't be missed either if I came in as a ninja with goad or as another dps that could pull more dps than my bard, lowering the overall TP need of the party.

That being said though, for the time being I don't see a need to have a bard for content (it's great to have one, but not necessary) just as much as its great to be able to have 2 monks to DK off each other, but not required. I still firmly believe though that there needs to be damage penalty on ballad and paeon, otherwise it's a literal infinite source of mana/TP with no drawbacks to it. If the songs didn't affect the bard themselves then maybe.

The damage difference isn't a big problem either, as long as the bard itself is capable of pulling enough damage to meet enrage timers, or at least have utility to justify a raid spot (which can't be said for SMN for the time being in most circumstances) as long as it stays at that general range for the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Your arguing about 'need' when I clearly said it is a want for me personally which would increase my enjoyment of the class while not throwing either the group or the game out of balance, even though it is not a need but to me being a want shouldn't be ignored just because it is not a 'need'

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Originally Posted by Izsha

All the arguments in this thread are terribly arbitrary and the justification is weak.

1st off: WHY does bard need a buff? Because they are excluded from content?
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nope.
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if bard is not excluded for content, then that rationale simply becomes "I wanna parse higher".
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No one in 20(update. 30) pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NEED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

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Still no.
/10

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That being said though, for the time being I don't see a need to have a bard for content (it's great to have one, but not necessary) just as much as its great to be able to have 2 monks to DK off each other, but not required. I still firmly believe though that there needs to be damage penalty on ballad and paeon, otherwise it's a literal infinite source of mana/TP with no drawbacks to it. If the songs didn't affect the bard themselves then maybe.

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In my experience there is no chance of infinite MP/TP from bard songs without the damage debuff anymore so than with it present. We as bards do not regenerate as much MP as we spend when playing songs, it would require multiple bards to create even close to such a situation and even in such a situation the damage debuff on songs would have no impact on the use of a bard in the party because the debuff itself does so little and only when playing songs. As such I consider it a pointless debuff which would be better off decreased, removed or replaced with a debuff that does not further target our DPS. That is my point, other people started suggesting WD buffs but my issue is with how pointless and unnecessary the song damage debuff is and how it would be appreciated by me if was decreased, changed or removed.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Still no.
/10

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Good thing I am not appealing to you with my justifications in the hopes that you would change the game for me then isn't it? I do not have to prove to you personally that it is needed, as far as I am concerned all I need to do is prove it would be appreciated (this thread is proof of that) and would not damage party composition or game balance to SE. Other than many of those opposed to the suggestions offered in this thread being very hyperbolic in their opposition claims, no-one has proven the suggestions specifically mentioned in this thread would do either of those things.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

In my experience there is no chance of infinite MP/TP from bard songs without the damage debuff anymore so than with it present. We as bards do not regenerate as much MP as we spend when playing songs, it would require multiple bards to create even close to such a situation and even in such a situation the damage debuff on songs would have no impact on either the use of a bard in the party or the lack of one.

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I can sing for roughly two and a half minutes with ballad because of the self-regen it gives the bard. I'm just not keen of the idea of trivializing the healer's mana management to that degree.

Your request is arbitrary and has weak jjustifications.Fortunately SE has some sense because you cannot create job BALANCE around arbitrary junk. I think drg should move 10% faster. It would help my enjoyment and not unbalance it. That statement has just as much power behind it as yours.

Balance is not arbitrary. Making balance tweaks based on arbitrary ideas does the opposite. It unbalances.

SE only buffs or nerfs when there are broad, tangible signs that a job needs help. Most notably overwhelming job exclusion. This thread is asking bard be changed because either:

Bard "might" fall behind in the future
Or
I wanna do more damage cuz it'd be 'nice,.

Both of those are terrible reasoning. 1 hasn't even happened so basing balance on imaginary futures is just absurd. The 2nd applies to anyone. I think war should do more damage. Buff me SE! I'm sure blm wants to do more damage too. That's not a 'reason'.

Neither of those 2 reasons have ANYTHING to do with balance, and both only risk unbalance because they are not rooted in anything solid. Balancing is not about fluffy feel goods.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I can sing for roughly two and a half minutes with ballad because of the self-regen it gives the bard. I'm just not keen of the idea of trivializing the healer's mana management to that degree.

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But how would removal or changing the debuff type on your bard trivialize another classes mana management? Their mana management would not be impacted by you having the % damage debuff decreased, removed or replaced with another form of debuff when playing songs.

So I guess your NIN doing your goad isn't running out of tp himself. BRD is very vital to maximizing the capability as well as the room for error a party has. If you don't think BRD's can do similar numbers maybe you should look at some threads in other forums. Just as its necessary for a BRD to be in a party for melee/mage classes to maximize dps, it's only fair for a BRD to have a DRG. There are parses out there of BRD's doing 500dps in T13 and 530dps+ in T10-12. Just because parses of other jobs doing those numbers is more common doesn't mean BRD isn't also capable. Ppl just need to learn how to maximize their dps and not whine about it.