The Hunt Public Shaming Needs to end

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Going all legalese...

.... So what right do you have to accuse them if you do not have any documented proof of them doing the act?

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Forum lawyers are so funny. Everyone hold your fire and don't res <t>. Boom! Is his dead corpse on the ground for an early pull not solid evidence? LOL. Heck we can all get screenshots saved to disk too of it. Trophies for when you bag a early pulling troll.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Classic argument? I'm simply saying the way the community is now, they wouldn't have lasted one day in 11. That's all. You also can keep your personal insults to yourself since I don't care for them.

There's nothing wrong with taking down hunts silently. As far as I am concerned it's the correct way to do this. I'm sorry if you and 90% of Hyperion feel entitled to have your name plastered on every hunt and have it handed to you.

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Maybe, maybe not. If you're talking explicitly about NM hunts, then maybe you're right that people would get tired of the spawn camping > race to claim > others attempt to disrupt your kill in any way they can.

But this isn't FFXI's NM system. The difference here is that you *can* share any hunt you find with lots of people (many of whom are also actively looking for those hunts) and you lose nothing for doing so except a couple minutes time.

But you also must remember that FFXI (at least in it's original incarnation, I haven't played in ages) was a VERY rigidly enforced social game. The vast majority of content in the game (hell, even leveling for most jobs) requires others to help you out because the jobs were much less capable on their own. Your reputation was everything in that game. Hunt NM camping and the fights over them were understandable because there could be only 1 group that claims the NM. But imagine if FFXIs system worked like this one does. The monster does not show up in a single location, so you have to search the zone for it, multiple desirable NMs can show up at once, and everybody gets the same reward (or chance at a reward) regardless of how many people are there for the kill. If you just started killing NMs as fast as you could, effectively depriving others of the ability to participate in the kill just because you don't think they deserve it, how long do you think it would be before you started getting kicked out of linkshells and blacklisted from leveling parties, dynamis groups or other group content?

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Forum lawyers are so funny. Everyone hold your fire and don't res <playerX>. Boom! Is his dead corpse on the ground for an early pull not solid evidence? LOL. Heck we can all get screenshots saved to disk too of it. Trophies for when you bag a early pulling troll.

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Shouting it once is fine. To let people be aware of the person. But going out of your way to ruin the rest of their game experience is not. Which is what you are trying to defend. In this case you are now harassing. Because you are taking the steps to ensure that they DO NOT get into any parties of any sort.

-Posted from the SE ToS-

Harassment
Our Definition of Harassment
The use of inappropriate and offensive language in general, or against another player is considered harassment in FINAL FANTASY XIV and is strictly prohibited. Using offensive language for character and retainer name, or spreading the inappropriate words in the character’s first and last names is also considered harassment. All claims of harassment are evaluated on a case by case basis and the action taken can be varied based upon the situation at that time. If harassment is found, the account penalty will be issued to all players who involve in the harassment.

•The use of language that is generally considered unacceptable in a public venue
•Any language that is purposely meant to harm or harass a third party
•Any language that promotes the discrimination of any race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation or gender

There may be inappropriate conduct that does not fit into any of the above categories that may be considered harassment and as such would constitute an actionable offense.

In accordance with our privacy and confidentiality policies, the GM will not inform the victim of any disciplinary action that was issued.

Prohibited Activities
Disruptive behavior that negatively affects the experience of others or the service itself is strictly forbidden within FINAL FANTASY XIV. Such activities violate the FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement as well as the SQUARE ENIX Account Terms of Use. Players found to be committing prohibited activities within FINAL FANTASY XIV will be penalized by SQUARE ENIX in its sole discretion. The different types of account penalties that can be issued against a service account are further explained in the “Account Penalties” section.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Thank for stating the obvious:
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Disruptive behavior that negatively affects the experience of others or the service itself is strictly forbidden within FINAL FANTASY XIV.....

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And this is what early pullers are doing "Disruptive behavior that negatively affects the experience of others." We are not ruining anyone else experience by avoiding them thru the blacklist. The blacklisting or coordinated blacklisting to protect ourselves from the early pullers harassment can not be harassment. It makes no sense for those of us who are being abused to have to accept them and let them abuse us some more. That would be like telling battered women to back to their abusive boyfriends or husbands.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And this is what early pullers are doing "Disruptive behavior that negatively affects the experience of others." We are not ruining anyone else experience by avoiding them thru the blacklist. The blacklisting or coordinated blacklisting to protect ourselves from the early pullers harassment can not be harassment.

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I think you've missed the entire point of the message. People mis-identify the person who pulled early all the time. On multiple occasions I've personally seen someone who was low level and clearly wasn't hunting just walk through the mob and aggro it by accident. Then people shouted for 10 minutes to blist the person for pulling earlier despite them having no idea what they even did or any malicious intent behind it. Heck they weren't even trying to hunt at the time. If you shout "Player A just pulled early. Blist him everyone" I have no idea what actually happened outside of your word. From my own experiences I know I can't trust every shout by face value. In the example I gave earlier where the player face pulled not even realizing what they did those shouts to blist that player would absolutely be considered harassment. That's what they are trying to tell you.

TLDR: there is no reason to trust random shouts. They can be lies and potentially are harassment in their own right depending on what actually happened.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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TLDR: there is no reason to trust random shouts. They can be lies and potentially are harassment in their own right depending on what actually happened.

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There is no reason to trust any random shouts. The early puller usually takes at least 3 to 5 pulls before people really catch on. Usually we discuss among ourselves who it might be first and then assign people to watch for them. And if it is some low level with sprout on their heads, we usually tell them to stay away so they do not die. It is only after we see the early puller do this over and over then we let everyone know, and better yet if we can get their dead corpse on the ground for confirmation it is even better. You don't need the insults and cussing that can get everyone else in trouble, you just need to correctly identify the troublemaker.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Disruptive behavior that negatively affects the experience of others or the service itself is strictly forbidden within FINAL FANTASY XIV.

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This part in particular is vague at best. People on have different perspectives on the matter. Pulling the mark quickly can be seen as disruptive behavior to some people, and players that alert other players of said person can also be seen as disruptive behavior to others because it negatively affects their experience.

However, blacklisting is a whole different story. Players are free to blacklist anyone they deem not suitable to play with. If the name was given once only, then yes, it should be fine and wouldn't be considered harassment. What other players do with that name - whether they ignore it or consider blacklisting - is entirely up to them. Behavior such as this does kind of give a bad impression on said individual who was named. I'm sure that having a bad reputation is bad. x:

On the other hand, should you then decide to go out of your way to bring hell upon this individual at any chance you get, then yes, this is reportable and is considered harassment.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Really? Even in the U.S. with laws at every level, federal, state, local etc. Yet the Clipper owner was forced by the NBA to sell regardless of his 1st amendment rights.

I wouldn't be so sure that players have no teeth and have zero means whatsoever to enforce player instituted standards of behavior. I witnessed a whole FC dissolve and jump server because of their bad hunt behavior. It has been done and can be done again, all without violating SE rules. I am no gandalf the grey or white, and my powers are really mortal and very limited, but along with other players we have the power not to be played for fools by trouble making early pullers.

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The us constitution defines roles and responsibilities of federal and state govt. States are then allowed to further delegate responibilities to lower level govt like county and municiple. The higher level governing bodies GIVE power to lower bodies to manage their constituents. SE has Not given players any authority like a federal govt gives to lower govt. They gave power to gms, forum moderators, the tech guy that bans people. The anti RMT team. Not to your hunt LS. You have no authority as a player.

Newsflash. There is no such thing as an early pull. It is a made-up thought. A whimsical idea. A pretentious charade. It is a figment of the imagination.

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-conte...My-Figment.jpg

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Originally Posted by Izsha

The us constitution defines roles and responsibilities of federal and state govt. States are then allowed to further delegate responibilities to lower level govt like county and municiple. ....

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I don't know if you ever read the constitution, but certainly doesn't delegate nothing to the lower levels. Not that I agree with the state right advocates, but they would argue that states are at least equal to federal level and on more than one occasion they've fought the federal government over those powers, most famous of course was the civil war. Why else is that Colorado has legalized pot and is direct opposition to the federal courts?

SE is the final arbiter, but they generally reserve the right to make that judgement call, but that does not mean players are powerless or have no teeth. This is a MMO, and interactions with other players is paramount actually. SE can't make people play with you help you clear T9 or get that pony from Titan EX.

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Originally Posted by Cadmar

... There is no such thing as an early pull. ...

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Keep on believing that lie. When you pull before the called time, it is as obvious an early pull as night is from day.