Zepla: Endwalker is the Worst FFXIV Expansion I have played

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

As a Relics Enjoyer myself, most of them don't hold much prestige to me as they're just Timesinks, aside from maybe the ARR relic which still requires a ton of commitment and a willingness to tolerate poor game design for glam.

The Ultimate weapons are the ones with universal prestige tied to them in this game, as they require a substantial degree of player competence, a solid understanding of your job, and the commitment to prog for weeks, if not months at a time.

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For me relics were, at least up until now, not so much about prestige, but more about personal accomplishment. I could look at a finished weapon and say "That took a while, and the grind was real, but man. Look at this thing of beauty. I did a dang thing." Now, they are just tomestone weapons. Heck, they are actually lesser versions of tomestone weapons. I don't get that feeling of accomplishment when I look at EW relics.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

For me relics were, at least up until now, not so much about prestige, but more about personal accomplishment. I could look at a finished weapon and say "That took a while, and the grind was real, but man. Look at this thing of beauty. I did a dang thing." Now, they are just tomestone weapons. Heck, they are actually lesser versions of tomestone weapons. I don't get that feeling of accomplishment when I look at EW relics.

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This exactly.

The current DRK relic is probably one of the best looking DRK relics next to Cronus Lux imo, I want to feel something about obtaining it but I can't. It took literally 0 effort to obtain. Complete questline, use stashed tomes, obtain "relic".

I may have joined the anima weapon acquisition when it got a lot easier, but the fact that I at least had to put in some effort to get it makes it mean so much more.

The difference is astronomical, especially when you take into account Zodiac(ARR)/Eureka/Bozja relics even if you aren't a fan of how stages look.

I’m at the point of having so little content to do and absolutely nothing to spend causality tomestones on I’m logging in to do whatever roulettes I feel like doing on the day then using the tomestones to stockpile the upgrade items

At this point I think I have enough for about 5 classes worth of relics that I’ll probably eventually give to classes I’ll never use

At least back when my main source of glowy weapons for off classes was anemos relics i at l ast had to put in the effort to basically clear out all of anemos to get enough crystals for one relic which would take around 3 hours or so, and it came with a side of assisting new people in eureka

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m at the point of having so little content to do and absolutely nothing to spend causality tomestones on I’m logging in to do whatever roulettes I feel like doing on the day then using the tomestones to stockpile the upgrade items

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Yep, welcome to the club. I do a few roulettes and pvp a little, but most of my time is being spent on Baldur's Gate 3. I may just level up this SAM for the hell of it.

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Originally Posted by Swordsman

Yep, welcome to the club. I do a few roulettes and pvp a little, but most of my time is being spent on Baldur's Gate 3. I may just level up this SAM for the hell of it.

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Similar, minus the roulettes. FL Pvp for a 1 - 1 1/2 hours, just because working towards the Seal Rock glam and mount stuff. Other than that, there's just nothing really.
EW desperately needed an exploratory zone. Content that gives you a reason to login, for an extended session, and pulls people together. Pvp isn't a social thing, you (hopefully!) aren't spending an hour in PVP chatting away with different people, across your various 10-15min matches. There's nothing now that really pulls together 10-20+ people into doing the same thing. V/C: either running alone or up to 4 people, but its not long lasting anyway; IS: done alone but its not like you need to spend too much time doing it anyway; EO: (if you can even get a run going), up to 4 people, otherwise solo; EW Relics: you don't need anyone else and can get them passively, don't even need to make any effort at all.
MMORPG or RPGMMO, whatever. Where is the MMO content, with EW? Where's it going to come from, with DT, with what they have announced so far?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m at the point of having so little content to do and absolutely nothing to spend causality tomestones on I’m logging in to do whatever roulettes I feel like doing on the day then using the tomestones to stockpile the upgrade items

At this point I think I have enough for about 5 classes worth of relics that I’ll probably eventually give to classes I’ll never use

At least back when my main source of glowy weapons for off classes was anemos relics i at l ast had to put in the effort to basically clear out all of anemos to get enough crystals for one relic which would take around 3 hours or so, and it came with a side of assisting new people in eureka

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More or less the same here. Like Chrys I've been doing Seal Rock for the glam, I need 50 more for the chestpiece as of yesterday. Seal Rock and...Danshig? I unironically find fun, I very much enjoy large-scale content but pvp didn't really click for me in ffxiv until they did the pvp job overhauls. (Now if only they could put cc resist in frontlines.)

I'll do roulettes when I'm feeling the drive but there isn't much more that I go and do. Might finish some eureka relics after the mogtome event ends.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Unfortunately I pay to get content, not pay to invent content in my head

If you wanna roleplay go play DND

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You got approximately 160 hours of 6.0 MSQ and roughly another 20 hours of 6.1-6.5 MSQ (part yet to come).
You got 13 new dungeons and 7 new trials (final of each upcoming in 6.5).
You got Pandaemonium.
You got Myths of the Realm.
You got Sil'dih Subterrane and Mount Rokkon with 3 different difficulty modes each.
You got Dragonsong's Reprise Ultimate.
You got The Omega Protocol Ultimate.
You got Eureka Orthos.
You got Island Sanctuary.
You got 2 new world boss level FATEs (Chi and Daivadipa) in addition to all the other new FATEs.
You got new crafting and gathering recipes and leves.
You got Tataru's Grand Endeavor.
You got the Somehow Even Further Adventures of Hildribrand.
You got the Manderville weapons.
You got the Omega sidequest.
You got the Splendorous relic tools.
You got level cap on all jobs increased by 10 to 90 (Except BLU which increased to 80),
You got Crystalline Conflict.
You got a new Leap of Faith puzzle at the Gold Saucer.

I'm sure there are some other things I'm forgetting but the general point is you paid for new content and you got new content. This expansion is not lacking in new content compared to Shadowbringers. Most of those things can be done repeatedly.

What is missing is your interest in and engagement with that content. That is what needs to be addressed.

Where did it miss the mark?

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Originally Posted by Zairava

We're a broken record at this point.

It is not the amount of content, it is the implementation of Island Sanctuary, the lack of meaningful incentives for criterion, DD not being a good source of exp for leveling, and even if by deliberate design, the relic being a glorified tome weapon.

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We've been trying to point that out for a while but few of those who are unhappy seem to want to acknowledge that it's interest and engagement lacking, not the amount of content to do.

One thing you didn't mention that I think has had a big effect is the 2 minute meta. Beyond the general issue of job design (also a problem), the 2 minute meta has effectively removed some player agency and that makes things less satisfying even if that agency is sometimes more illusion than real.

If the 2 minute meta is back for Dawntrail, then we'll truly know the developers don't pay attention to player feedback.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It just seems like it's an excuse to trot out the "toxic casualism" bogeyman these forums have used for years at this point, and point to that as why you're specifically not having fun in this game. It's the toxic casuals who are preventing this game from being good, because they, idk what. Shield SE from seeing criticism? Stay subbed even when you're not having fun? IDK.

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No one is shielding SE from feedback unless it's the trolls stirring things up into personal arguments instead of constructive discussion.

The opinions of casual players are just as valid as hardcore players. Both are paying a subscription for the game. SE needs to take both into consideration.

I've said this in the past. I think part of the problem is this is a transition period for the game. Yes, they are focused on the new player experience heavily because they're trying to make the game friendlier to new players and give them a new starting point other than Gridania/Limsa/Ul'dah. We were told during the 10 year roadmap LL that the 6.x series was going to be that transition and so things wouldn't be quite what we were used to.

The important thing now is to make certain SE knows what changes during the 6.x patch series have negatively affected player engagement so they can be corrected in Dawntrail. That means people need to list their feelings clearly and constructively. The personal bickering needs to end if the feedback is going to have a chance of being seen.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Doubt anyone will see this as it will get lost in this thread pretty fast but.
I use to complain a lot about the negativity in these forums. You know what that does? Creates discussions/arguments like in this thread.
If people want to be negative, just don't engage with them. The moment you engage you create the circling conversations we always see. And this applies to whatever of the two sides you stand on.

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Being negative is fine when it is being constructive. Engage with that - questions can help reveal useful information.

But do avoid engaging with the negativity that has no purpose other than being negative.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

We've been trying to point that out for a while but few of those who are unhappy seem to want to acknowledge that it's interest and engagement lacking, not the amount of content to do.

One thing you didn't mention that I think has had a big effect is the 2 minute meta. Beyond the general issue of job design (also a problem), the 2 minute meta has effectively removed some player agency and that makes things less satisfying even if that agency is sometimes more illusion than real.

If the 2 minute meta is back for Dawntrail, then we'll truly know the developers don't pay attention to player feedback.

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Ah hell, thanks for pointing that out. 2-minute meta is a cancer that needs to be eradicated.

I could go on an entire book long rant about the simplification of jobs and combat design but I don't feel like busting a blood vessel right now lol. Maybe I'll make a thread on that soon if I can get it well composed

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

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You got approximately 160 hours of 6.0 MSQ and roughly another 20 hours of 6.1-6.5 MSQ (part yet to come)

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160 hours of movie, great, that's not actual content that you can play but sure.

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You got 13 new dungeons and 7 new trials (final of each upcoming in 6.5).

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And yet in expert roulettes all you can do is the same 2 dungeons a million times, fun eh ? As for the raids, once you got your gear, that's it, one day every week for like 2-3 hrs for reclears and you're done.

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You got Pandaemonium.

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Same.

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You got Sil'dih Subterrane and Mount Rokkon with 3 different difficulty modes each.

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Basically a one and done once you're fully done with it.

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You got Dragonsong's Reprise Ultimate.
You got The Omega Protocol Ultimate.

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Thank god for a bit of difficulty in this game. 2 pieces of proper difficult content for the entire expansion, great.

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You got Eureka Orthos.

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Which is still not anywhere near Bozja in terms of repetition.

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You got Island Sanctuary.

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Spreadsheet simulator that you do in 10 minutes each week.

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You got 2 new world boss level FATEs (Chi and Daivadipa) in addition to all the other new FATEs.

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Did it on patch day, got both mounts.

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You got new crafting and gathering recipes and leves.

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Really ? Thank god there is some new crafting, this is normal in the cycle of an MMO with crafting.

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You got Tataru's Grand Endeavor.
You got the Somehow Even Further Adventures of Hildribrand.
You got the Manderville weapons.

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Completely mediocre content, especially Hildibrand, it was funny the first few times, it's well past its time now, it aint funny anymore.

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You got the Splendorous relic tools.

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Once again, this is nothing amazing to have a bit of extra side content for crafter, idk why you say this as if this is some kind of revolution in content.

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You got level cap on all jobs increased by 10 to 90 (Except BLU which increased to 80),

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No way, so like an MMORPG ?

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You got Crystalline Conflict.

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That gives no rewards once you have done the series, I'd know as I do all of them, I did all the series in 2 or 3 days and theres nothing left for me anymore.

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You got a new Leap of Faith puzzle at the Gold Saucer.

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If this is content, so is going to the aetheryte to teleport somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Being negative is fine when it is being constructive. Engage with that - question can help reveal useful information.

But do avoid engaging with the negatively that has no purpose other than being negative.

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I'm not sure how you keep it up. You're probably one of two - three posters that actually tries to have some solutions to issues taking all sides into consideration and all you're met with is snarky responses.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I'm not sure how you keep it up. You're probably one of two - three posters that actually tries to have some solutions to issues taking all sides into consideration and all you're met with is snarky responses.

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Pointing out things we discussed 80 pages ago in the most reductive and disingenuous way possible is not “taking into consideration all sides”,

The content is not repetitive and has no reward structure, how many times do we have to say that; doing a variant more than 12 times for funsies is not more content it’s a waste of time, I don’t know how many more times we can say that

The point being made is really that SE does make a lot of content, it is just designed in a way that you are done with it a lot quicker than many players would like.

They make all these dungeons, FATEs, deep dungeons, variant dungeons, Island Sanctuary and it is content but that doesn't mean it is engaging content to many players and so they could get these bosses, all these mechanics and all these environments they worked so hard on for months and do something with it that makes it more challenging or more engaging over a longer period of time, which is where the arguments for things like Eureka, Bozja, relic grinds, or copying GW open world come in.

Thread needs to be closed. I see certain people pointing out how there's no discussion or that not all sides are being heard, but at this point you've all said your piece. It's like a broken record watching you all accuse each other of random faults that have been addressed multiple times before already.

https://media.tenor.com/tHmgX-b9UVMA...orse-funny.gif

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Thread needs to be closed. I see certain people pointing out how there's no discussion or that not all sides are being heard, but at this point you've all said your piece. It's like a broken record watching you all accuse each other of random faults that have been addressed multiple times before already.

https://media.tenor.com/tHmgX-b9UVMA...orse-funny.gif

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"Let's silence people so they make a new thread to discuss the same thing again"

it's literally the point of a forum dude.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

"Let's silence people so they make a new thread to discuss the same thing again"

it's literally the point of a forum dude.

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I'm not suggesting silencing anyone. Just pointing out that this entire thread is moving no where. You're all just running in circles. Most of you don't want discussion. You want a hivemind or an echo chamber. At that point you've really just got to call it quits.

None of you have made any progress towards even so much as acknowledging your opposing sides. It's bad faith arguments going all around.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I'm not suggesting silencing anyone. Just pointing out that this entire thread is moving no where. You're all just running in circles. Most of you don't want discussion. You want a hivemind or an echo chamber. At that point you've really just got to call it quits.

None of you have made any progress towards even so much as acknowledging your opposing sides. It's bad faith arguments going all around.

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I understand very well, I do, but if you close this thread another will take it's place.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

I understand very well, I do, but if you close this thread another will take it's place.

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And you can start over in that new thread. A fresh start where you can try to do better. If you can't do better then you close that thread too. You keep trying until people start to converse like the grown adults that we all know are behind those screens.

Besides, once again I want to point out that it's not silencing. Silencing would be wiping your posts out, banning users, and otherwise preventing discussion completely.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

See above: That seems to be the objective. Silence positivity or even neutral non-negativity.

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The irony is palpable.

How the turns have tabled..

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

if you close this thread another will take it's place.

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https://i.imgur.com/sEQapCg.gif

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I'm not suggesting silencing anyone. Just pointing out that this entire thread is moving no where. You're all just running in circles. Most of you don't want discussion. You want a hivemind or an echo chamber. At that point you've really just got to call it quits.

None of you have made any progress towards even so much as acknowledging your opposing sides. It's bad faith arguments going all around.

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Any and all discussion happened a long time ago. And even then I think Zepla missed the mark for some people.

Endwalker from the start hasn't been a good expac imo. Numbers can say all they want but,

You have people questioning the rushed nature of the MSQ giving parts of it poor quality
2-min meta for battle content
Continued issues with job/classes not being addressed and in some cases even being acknowledged
Variant/Criterion implementation being lack luster (idea is fine if not really what some people are looking for), having no rewards or relic attached to it
Current relic being poorly received
Deep Dungeon being lackluster
Island Sanctuary being a mixed reception as well

Its kind of a mess. How much of this is due to Covid or other issues is hard to say. Its clear there's a LOT of dissatisfaction with many areas of the game though.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

One thing you didn't mention that I think has had a big effect is the 2 minute meta. Beyond the general issue of job design (also a problem), the 2 minute meta has effectively removed some player agency and that makes things less satisfying even if that agency is sometimes more illusion than real.

If the 2 minute meta is back for Dawntrail, then we'll truly know the developers don't pay attention to player feedback.

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I feel like this one gets all too often blown out of proportion, especially where it frames the problem as one of matching raid-buffs (rather than the portion of jobs' potency-per-minute that can now fall within 15-20 seconds per those 2 minutes).

Consider:

• What optimizations processes did you follow before? What optimization processes do you follow now? What, if anything, changed?
  
  
• What are differences, not just broadly between how people play(ed) then and now (since player communities do learn how to get better at the game, such that even a new Savage player today may inadvertently come across far more now than they would have when T6S came out), but between the gameplay implications of those kits then and now as they'd play out in today's player contexts?

We've lost a bit of pre-combat optimization in/per set comps (though, admittedly, that's a community issue more than a systems/design issue, as the differences between as optimal a comp as possible and a random comp were smaller than that of a single DPS underperforming). I'm not sure, though, that's even a bad thing, in itself.

If/when there's no AST, or you wouldn't be the preferred AST target, we've lost some things for which to hold bankables that can't be saved all the way for the next major raidbuff cycle as formerly granted by 60|90s CDs. That's a loss, and I therefore preferred that aspect of what we had before, but that loss is quite small.

If we say that our performance now depends more on syncing up to raid buffs, we're essentially saying that there is now a larger difference between what DPS one can produce individually and what Party DPS they can produce contextually. The latter comes from finding the greatest product possible from (A) potency density and (B) damage-amp density. But of those, despite raid buffs becoming increasingly stackable, the larger change is simply in our controllable potency density.


Now perhaps we're using this term "2-minute meta" super broadly, to the point that we really also mean an "exploitability" or "bankability" meta, rather than merely that timers have become standardized. In that case, we'd also be referring to how the preference for jobs with higher margins of what damage they produce in an 8-man context over what they produce alone ((aDPS-nDPS)+(rDPS-nDPS)) sparked an arms race of potency controllability/bankability.

Though, unless we're referring to raw potencies themselves, as in Paladin's Req combo doing so much more damage than its average potency-per-GCD (such that smaller optimizations become increasingly outweighed by Crit/DHit luck on those nukes), we'd still have to then ask: Do we specifically dislike having more control over the timing of our damage? Is it more than we didn't go far enough, since 1 charge offers no damage control, but a total (all charges) recharge time that matches our CD- or raid-buff intervals still means "effectively" no damage control (pacing is obligatory)?

Those are the actual gameplay-impacting design decisions, and simply yelling "Revert!" or "Down with the 2-minute meta!" has a damn high chance at a Monkey's Paw outcome if we aren't specific. (Hell, look how often even incredibly precise feedback gets misconstrued.)

I'm gonna keep being a broken record because the irony is kinda funny.
Complaining about the thread is continuing the thread.

I want to see this thread hit 200 pages.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Endwalker from the start hasn't been a good expac imo. Numbers can say all they want but,

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The great thing is, there essentially are no actual numbers.

White knights tend to rally behind Lucky Bancho, which counts alts as multiple people and is compounded cumulatively over multi-month windows.

Antis rally behind Steamcharts, which are a hard datapoint but fundamentally incomplete due to their scope.

All we really have are our anecdotes and personal experience. The closest we can come to hard numbers is maybe to evaluate iterations of individual systems by looking at achievement ownership.

A good example would be that the achievements tied to Mount Rokkon have roughly 50% less ownership than those tied to Sildihn Subterrane, and in the case of the Criterion difficulty 66% less. Many players just outright didn't bother with the second iteration of V/C, which indicates it's probably not a very successful system.

The main complaint I have about the 2 min meta is the fact it makes all jobs feel ever more the same. Doesn't matter what job you play, pop buffs at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/a...1fc0_96x96.jpghttps://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/a...1fc0_96x96.jpghttps://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/a...1fc0_96x96.jpghttps://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/a...1fc0_96x96.jpg

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What are you trying to accomplish exactly? What are your goals here? It's like jumping into a pool and trying to push the water away. You think you'd actually learn after 8 years. :confused:

I'd probably need blood pressure meds if I actually cared about how people argue on the internet. So good luck I guess.

If you wanna have an argument about how people have arguments, go ahead and make a new argument thread and see who joins you to argue about arguing.
It mostly seems like you just want to derail this thread to get it locked.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

The main complaint I have about the 2 min meta is the fact it makes all jobs feel ever more the same. Doesn't matter what job you play, pop buffs at the same time.

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If I may ask, how different did SAM's 40s and 60s (Hagakure + Higanbana), NIN's 60s (TA), MNK's 60s and 90s (PB and RoF), and DRG's 80s (BFB) and 120s (DS), etc., personal cycles feel to you compared to their current manner of play? How different did they feel from one another, then and now?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I feel like this one gets all too often blown out of proportion, especially where it frames the problem as one of matching raid-buffs (rather than the portion of jobs' potency-per-minute that can now fall within 15-20 seconds per those 2 minutes).

Consider:

• What optimizations processes did you follow before? What optimization processes do you follow now? What, if anything, changed?
  
  
• What are differences, not just broadly between how people play(ed) then and now (since player communities do learn how to get better at the game, such that even a new Savage player today may inadvertently come across far more now than they would have when T6S came out), but between the gameplay implications of those kits then and now as they'd play out in today's player contexts?

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That's why I bring it up as an issue of player agency. Feeling like you have control over when you choose to blow your cooldowns is fun and very satisfying for many even if the reality is they would probably use them at specific times regardless. Now they feel like that choice has been taken away from them.

Games need to feel fun. There's a lot more fun when you're deciding what to do than when someone else has made the choice for you.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I want to see this thread hit 200 pages.

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That's why posters are asked to keep comments on the same subject in a single thread. The more pages a topic hits, the more likely it is to genuinely concerns players.

More pages here says that the things Zepla brought up are on player minds.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

All we really have are our anecdotes and personal experience. The closest we can come to hard numbers is maybe to evaluate iterations of individual systems by looking at achievement ownership.

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Why a legitmate state of the game survey is needed in addition to the casual PR survey they released today.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The irony is palpable.

How the turns have tabled..

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Hm?

I never try to silence people I'm opposed to, and I even oppose dogpiles against people I dislike or disagree with. I encourage discussion. I confront negativity, I don't say it has no basis or that it isn't allowed to be spoken while taking part in dogpiles trying to smother any negative posters or comments. I prefer engaging with people and oppose bullying them into silence.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

And you can start over in that new thread. A fresh start where you can try to do better. If you can't do better then you close that thread too. You keep trying until people start to converse like the grown adults that we all know are behind those screens.

Besides, once again I want to point out that it's not silencing. Silencing would be wiping your posts out, banning users, and otherwise preventing discussion completely.

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An interesting idea, but I doubt it would work. I prefer people being allowed to speak, though it WOULD be nice if all the people SAYING they want discussion weren't lying and actually were engaging in good faith, not looking for reasons to dogpile on people they disagree with and upvote each other's snark posts that bring literally nothing to the conversation other than animosity.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I want to see this thread hit 200 pages.

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At this point, why not? We're over 5/8ths of the way there.

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Originally Posted by R041

What are you trying to accomplish exactly? What are your goals here?

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I'd have to see what you're referring to. You "quoted" and inserted a picture, not one of my comments, so I don't know what you're referring to. Perhaps next time, instead of a snarky thing like that, provide the exact quote you're talking about and I can offer more insight.

As for the bold:

I'm literally the only one in this thread that has tried (repeatedly, I'll add) to NOT derail it and talk about the topic. Indeed, every time I do, OTHER PEOPLE spend the next 5 pages bashing me for "writing a novel". Perhaps you should ask them why it seems like they just want to derail this thread to get it locked, as I'm the only one that absolutely hasn't behaved in that way.

Indeed, your post seems to be an attempt to mock me (mocking other users can get threads locked) and derail the thread. So I guess I should ask you why you seem to want to derail the thread and get it locked?

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

The main complaint I have about the 2 min meta is the fact it makes all jobs feel ever more the same. Doesn't matter what job you play, pop buffs at the same time.

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I agree with this.

It seems to severely limit design space, rotations, even encounter designs. It's a massive hamstring on the game's design.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If I may ask, how different did SAM's 40s and 60s (Hagakure + Higanbana), NIN's 60s (TA), MNK's 60s and 90s (PB and RoF), and DRG's 80s (BFB) and 120s (DS), etc., personal cycles feel to you compared to their current manner of play? How different did they feel from one another, then and now?

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Jojoya's answer hit the nail on the head. Having the freedom to choose.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The point being made is really that SE does make a lot of content, it is just designed in a way that you are done with it a lot quicker than many players would like.

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And more than anything else, " a lot quicker that it used to in older expansions". It's mainly that part back we complain about.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/a...1fc0_96x96.jpghttps://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/a...1fc0_96x96.jpghttps://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/a...1fc0_96x96.jpghttps://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/a...1fc0_96x96.jpg

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I'm perfectly fine with nuking us both. Run out the clock, clean out our post limit. If the thread gets locked, then it gets locked.

My goals are usually to meme, so it's not really a stressor for me. Your goals seem pretty aimlessly stressful. lol

https://i.imgur.com/AtYGhGt.png

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

And more than anything else, " a lot quicker that it used to in older expansions". It's mainly that part back we complain about.

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Is part of it content pacing then?

I know they've changed pacing on some of the old content to help with the new player experience. Did some of it subconsciously carry over to current content design when it's not needed there?

I think about crafting and gathering. At the start of Shadowbringers (before the overhaul that was implemented in 5.1), it took me about 4 weeks to get all my crafting/gathering jobs to level cap. It took me a week from when Endwalker early access started to get them to the new level cap.

Was it really necessary to increase the leveling speed not just for old expansion levels but also for the current expansion levels that much?

Same for combat jobs - the numbers squish also included leveling XP changes. Is XP for 80-90 too generious, allowing players to level up jobs so they have less to occupy their time?|t's not a straight one-for-one comparison for me. I only had 4 combat jobs at level cap when Shadowbringers was released. I ended up gaining 350 combat levels then compared to only 210 in EW.

Not a big deal and yet it leaves me with more time to do other things compared to the last expansion. I doubt it's something that affecting most of the posters in this thread. Likely they had all their jobs at 70 (other than the new ones) when Shadowbringers began but it's still something that affects overall longevity.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You got approximately 160 hours of 6.0 MSQ and roughly another 20 hours of 6.1-6.5 MSQ (part yet to come).

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Where are you getting this number? I can go on YouTube right now and watch the entire 6.0 series; literally every single cut scene, in less than 20 hours. I sincerely hope you're not trying to insinuating that the dungeon, trials and even side quests—the latter of which isn't part of the MSQ makes up... 140 hours of content.

I get making a slight exaggeration but this is absurd. The entire MSQ from ARR to EW combined isn't 160 hours of cut scenes.

Just to put into perspective how laughably and ridiculously absurd this assertion is, my friend and I finished the entirety of Endwalker on December 9th at around 5am, denoted by the achievement on our respective profiles. Which is roughly six days from early access. There's only 144 hours in six days. So you're not only saying we literally didn't sleep for nearly a whole week straight but never so much as got off our chairs and altered the very fabric of time itself to invite sixteen additions hours.

Like... come on. :p

Now that we've established all of EW didn't have even 20 hours of cut scenes, I don't think it needs to be said 6.1-6.5 doesn't either.

I'm not going to pick out every little thing. Just a few points of interest.

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You got Sil'dih Subterrane and Mount Rokkon with 3 different difficulty modes each.

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Which have precisely zero replayability due to there being no rewards. An issue that has gone both unaddressed or unacknowledged for two iterations now despite it being essentially dead content within a week of its release. Even Variant suffers in this regard as the content lasts for little more than 2-3 hours yet is meant to holdover a 19 week patch cycle.

Don't get me wrong. Criterion is good content. There's just nothing incentivizing it. In a single player game, that's fine as you do it for the challenge and move on. A MMO needs repeatable content to justify a continual sub. Criterion fails at doing precisely that.

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You got Dragonsong's Reprise Ultimate.

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70% of which was completed in Shadowbringers, per Yoshida's own words.

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You got The Omega Protocol Ultimate.

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Which became the only Ultimate to date that released with not one, not two but three bugs. It's also, infamously, the only Ultimate so mitigation heavy that it was cleared, on release, without healers. Now that isn't a slight at the content itself per se but a jumping point to how poorly designed healers have become that such a thing was even possible.

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You got Eureka Orthos.

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Which is a literal reskin of Heaven on High. Which is something you can say about a lot of content, actually.

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You got Island Sanctuary.

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You mean the spreadsheet simulator no one asked for that has so little depth, Yoshida literally begged people not to rush and put in massive timegates just to artificially stretch what wouldn't have lasted a weekend otherwise? Seriously. In every other area in the open world, you can gather 6+ of any item but in Island Sanctuary it's one per node? Can't imagine why that might be...

Island Sanctuary has less depth than Farmville, a mobile game from 2009.

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You got 2 new world boss level FATEs (Chi and Daivadipa) in addition to all the other new FATEs.

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Two world bosses that get zerged down in seconds by 500 people to the point of DCing only to be completely ignored because there's literally zero reason to care about them afterwards? It's a cool idea in theory but doesn't actulally do much nor do FATEs as a whole because they haven't innovated on them in nearly a decade.

And a problem with near everything else you've listed is it's all one and done. For the base price of Endwalker, sure, it's a complete package. That is neither the complaint or criticism people have but rather the sheer lack of longevity any of it has. There isn't a reason to repeat it or the content itself flopped.

Fitting that they release a PR survey the day my sub ended so I can't reply to it lmao. Anyway, 90% of my problems with EW are homogenous job design (2 min meta and healers especially), stale reward structure, criterion not being rewarding enough, no adventuring foray, and super formulaic boss design. It's not like EW's issues are deep and systematic problems baked into the soul of the game or anything like that. They're just specific problems that can be solved as easily as they were created.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

based post

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Pretty much all of this tbh, none of the content she mentions has any sort of replayability, also her MSQ claim of 160 hours is pretty funny, even then, it's just a visual novel basically, not content that you are actually in control of, it's basically a movie

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Where are you getting this number? I can go on YouTube right now and watch the entire 6.0 series; literally every single cut scene, in less than 20 hours. I sincerely hope you're not trying to insinuating that the dungeon, trials and even side quests—the latter of which isn't part of the MSQ makes up... 140 hours of content.

I get making a slight exaggeration but this is absurd. The entire MSQ from ARR to EW combined isn't 160 hours of cut scenes.

Just to put into perspective how laughably and ridiculously absurd this assertion is, my friend and I finished the entirety of Endwalker on December 9th at around 5am, denoted by the achievement on our respective profiles. Which is roughly six days from early access. There's only 144 hours in six days. So you're not only saying we literally didn't sleep for nearly a whole week straight but never so much as got off our chairs and altered the very fabric of time itself to invite sixteen additions hours.

Like... come on. :p

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Getting their mileage out of that 1970's education [I'm sorry, I couldn't resist]

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

snip.

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I will admit that the 160 hours was off. That was the number I remember SE mentioning before EW released and so it's what I used.

I checked the time/date info on my screenshots from the start of Endwalker. If I assume I took 8 hours a day for sleep (which I probably didn't, I was enjoying myself too much), it took me about 75 hours to complete the 6.0 MSQ.

The 20 hours for the 6.x MSQ content is because I have watched the time while completing each portion and it's been roughly 4 hours each time. Believe it or not, there actually is more to the MSQ than cutscenes even if cutscenes are all you can remember.

As for the rest of your responses, none of those have anything to do with what my post was about. Supersnow said they were paying for new content, not to replay old content.

All of that was new content added in Endwalker. It was impossible for players to play that content before Endwalker's release. They were new things to do.

You choosing not to do content does not mean that content doesn't exist. You choosing not to repeat content doesn't mean the content is not repeatable.

You being unhappy about the content doesn't change the fact you can do it if you want to.

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

Getting their mileage out of that 1970's education [I'm sorry, I couldn't resist]

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It's fine, I was definitely stressed out at the time and didn't stop responding when I should have.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I will admit that the 160 hours was off. That was the number I remember SE mentioning before EW released and so it's what I used.

I checked the time/date info on my screenshots from the start of Endwalker. If I assume I took 8 hours a day for sleep (which I probably didn't, I was enjoying myself too much), it took me about 75 hours to complete the 6.0 MSQ.

The 20 hours for the 6.x MSQ content is because I have watched the time while completing each portion and it's been roughly 4 hours each time. Believe it or not, there actually is more to the MSQ than cutscenes even if cutscenes are all you can remember.

As for the rest of your responses, none of those have anything to do with what my post was about. Supersnow said they were paying for new content, not to replay old content.

All of that was new content added in Endwalker. It was impossible for players to play that content before Endwalker's release. They were new things to do.

You choosing not to do content does not mean that content doesn't exist. You choosing not to repeat content doesn't mean the content is not repeatable.

You being unhappy about the content doesn't change the fact you can do it if you want to.


It's fine, I was definitely stressed out at the time and didn't stop responding when I should have.

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Saying lapis manulis didn’t exist till EW so really I got what I paid for is so disingenuous to the actual point of my post I honestly don’t even know what to say

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Saying lapis manulis didn’t exist till EW so really I got what I paid for is so disingenuous to the actual point of my post I honestly don’t even know what to say

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Lapis Manulis wasn't the only thing I listed, was it? In fact I didn't even mention it by name. I said we had 13 dungeons added this expansion.

Whether or not you got your money's worth is subjective to you. SE provided new content to us that we paid for.

It is your choice to do it or not. Not liking content doesn't mean it does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

That's why I bring it up as an issue of player agency. Feeling like you have control over when you choose to blow your cooldowns is fun and very satisfying for many even if the reality is they would probably use them at specific times regardless. Now they feel like that choice has been taken away from them.

Games need to feel fun. There's a lot more fun when you're deciding what to do than when someone else has made the choice for you.

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Cool. Then there was at least a better illusion before, perhaps because you'd need to memorize more situations or track more things to make the best choice.

That said, you generally did not hold for buffs anything that wasn't bankable. The buffs were pre-scheduled and you simply played as you would unless you had something specifically as bankable as Mirage Dive or gauge spenders.

Yes, we have more margin on gauge spenders now, but to the point also that what could barely be held for a 90s before can be held for a 120s now, providing the same degree of agency.


Again, I do think it was slightly better back then than now in terms of party coordination rewarded; I just think people mis-weigh the factors that were involved in moving from A to B, which have a lot less overall to do with the buffs' CDs themselves than the availability of the skill which exploit those raid buffs.

My advice, then, is, rather than just rallying around this complexly arrived-at and variously-defined state of the "2-minute meta" (as if we weren't equally fixated on raid-buffs before and 2-minute comps weren't already meta)...

...instead determine what actually instills those net-favorable feelings of agency, because you're probably not actually going to find an overall net increase in that control if going back to Stormblood (where most had very, very little control compared to now over the timing of their actions, even in absolute terms rather than per "obligatory" sync).

And of those parts, look at what you prefer.

• Maybe you want the relative value of shorter-term optimizations like positionals, minimizing GCDs per Iaijutsu prepped, and never messing up a combo to be greater?
• Maybe you want the impact of Crit/DHit variance to be slightly less and would therefore prefer your ostensibly multi-hit CDs to actually be multi-hits (though with your guaranteed Crits still applying to each component strike)?
• Maybe you want a greater number of burst cycles (such as how pre-nerf-Bloodfest caused you to have effectively 4 variations on your minute to minute cycles, instead of just the current 2), or to have a similar effect on how your CDs sync up to raid buffs?
• Maybe you want to gain or lose some "freely timeable" uses of your CDs based on which other jobs are in your party? (If you don't want that variance [which includes just not wanting to lose agency from having previously freely timeable CDs given obligatory timings], either the buffs CDs must be equal or the outliers must be single-target AND you must not be worth buffing.)