BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Something like "Do that quest to 100% learn this AoE, but hunt these optional mobs to learn 6 different aspects of this AoE for elemental purpose in the Carnival" ? That could be a thing, but it might be difficult to do the same with every type of skill.

Or, like I suggested in some other topics, you could have talents that would be "limited". So, in matchmaking, you'd be forced to use the base version of a skill and those wouldn't be random, but in "talent-parties", you'd have your talents available to enchance some of those. And BLU would have to hunt those "talents" or "talented-skill".

Yes, but considering SE basically said that this was the only way they could implement BLU, you still need to have a plan to give shape to those options.
It's like if someone made a poll asking if people want "10 dungeons, 5 trials, and 15 floors for raids in each major patch" or if they'd rather "stick to the current formula".

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Except it's not, option one is meant for people who want option one BLU but with less focus on solo content outside of learning.

but wait what if someone wants BLU to be a regular job but they don't want the solo content at all and just want it to be a normal run of the mill job?

Or Hey what if someone just straight up doesn't want BLU to be like every other job but doesn't like how weak it is now and just wants OP skills that lets them solo anything with a hard focus on more solo content?

Or what if people just like how BLU is right now and want more of that?

Or what if someone just doesn't care?

The point of the options is to just give a general CHOICE of how you would like BLU's design plan to be, there's no point in elaborating on what you feel BLU means or how which would be implemented, as each has their own draw backs and benefits and is meant to speak to a general demographic. Just because one has less text attached to it doesn't make it an inherently wrong decision, feeling that way is a subjective interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Something like "Do that quest to 100% learn this AoE, but hunt these optional mobs to learn 6 different aspects of this AoE for elemental purpose in the Carnival" ? That could be a thing, but it might be difficult to do the same with every type of skill.

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Yeah that's basically the gist of it. Say you learn AoE spell that does 130 potency through your Job quest and applies a slow. You can then go learn AoE spells that do the exact same potency in the world with the same additional effect, but in the Carnival you'd have additional elemental effects applied, the same as they are now but only in the Carnivale. You swap these out in a similar BLU spellbook menu to what we have now, except you choose what skills to replace over your core Job spells. Illusion of choice? Yes, but you still get the satisfaction of "learning" and in theory you can at least have that sense of personality involved with your rotation; for example you can have all your spells replaced with lightning themed spells if that's your flavor, or fire or ice.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

The point of the options is to just give a general CHOICE of how you would like BLU's design plan to be

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Again, if the design plan is not doable, this CHOICE has no value, especially if you want your poll to prove anything in how BLU should be implemented.
Sure, my criteria might not be shared by everyone, but if you suggest I'll have a BLU that's simply another caster DPS that would still have the additional work of hunting for the skills while every other job simply gain them by leveling, there's no way I would chose that type of BLU.

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Originally Posted by GucciSan

Yeah that's basically the gist of it.

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It would be interesting to pick several BLU spells and see how we could tweak them. I think White Wind could be easily adjusted by splittng the healing on all targets. So, basically, in solo, the skill would still be very powerful, basically doubling your HP, but in 8-man party, it would simply be a moderate AoE heal. And maybe you could have a "glamour' version that works the opposite, giving you the HP you lack, like the one from FF VIII, that would still be less useful in group content since you wouldn't be the one to take heavy damage.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, if the design plan is not doable, this CHOICE has no value, especially if you want your poll to prove anything in how BLU should be implemented.
Sure, my criteria might not be shared by everyone, but if you suggest I'll have a BLU that's simply another caster DPS that would still have the additional work of hunting for the skills while every other job simply gain them by leveling, there's no way I would chose that type of BLU.

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Right now it's simply to show what the majority player feedback is leaning towards. Who knows what the devs are thinking right now, anyway? I imagine this poll just helps clarify what the majority playerbase is actually wanting. You're a couple steps ahead in your thinking, as we all are, that's fine and understandable, I have my ideas about how I want those options realized too, but that's the step after a poll. Think about what your ideal Blue Mage implementation is and which option would potentially lead to it, then you can vote that way. If the poll ends up leading to anything then further distinctions can be made.
Another way of saying this is, if each idea about specific criteria within branches of development direction were added it'd be like a 20 item poll and not a very good one. This helps narrow things down for further discussion.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

but that's the step after a poll.

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For me, that's the step before the poll. Otherwise, it's no different than empty promises like politicians do. It's easy to gain support if you tout an ideal solution that adress every issue without any drawback.

Like my example above :

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's like if someone made a poll asking if people want "10 dungeons, 5 trials, and 15 floors for raids in each major patch" or if they'd rather "stick to the current formula".

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If the drawback is "having a major patch once every 2/3 year", that might change your vote.

This thread has my support. Blue Mage and the many loyal players who wish to main it deserves better.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, my question is : How would you do a BLU that match at least all the criteria below :

• Have to hunt for spells
• Can hunt spells in mostly random order
• Is customizable to be versatile in content
• Have comparatively more powerful spells than other jobs to compensate for the additional work of hunting them
• Is balanced with every other job so that matchmaking and the meta are not overrun by BLUs

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Bullet point 4 isn't necessary.

The hunt for abilities is actually reasonably fun in its own sake, at least it is when it's not locked behind begging for help and terrible RNG.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Bullet point 4 isn't necessary.

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Yet they adressed this exact issue.

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Yoshida: For example, BLMs learn fire II at level 18, but BLUs end up not having an AoE action and have to go to learn it. Let's say you do go and learn it after farming the mobs, but if it deals the same damage as BLM, that's just extra work for nothing and troublesome.

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Source

And I agree with them. What's the incentive of having to hunt and only have a random chance of learning a skill that would at best do the same damage as Fire II that is gained "free" ? Or even less damage since, BLU having more "utility" would imply it should do less raw DPS than the "selfish" BLM.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What's the incentive of having to hunt and only have a random chance of learning a skill that would at best the same damage as Fire II that is gained "free" ?

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Implying hefty portions of the skills we do learn aren't barely recolors of each other, if they're useful at all.
To answer seriously - The thrill and enjoyment of hunting for that skill, as it is undoubtfully a core part of what makes BLU a BLU. And it is yet again a point comparable to other jobs because some jobs are inherently more difficult to play and they don't necessarily give higher dps than the easier ones. So why play one of the harder jobs instead of the easier ones? Because it's what you enjoy better and fits your personal preferences.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, if the design plan is not doable, this CHOICE has no value, especially if you want your poll to prove anything in how BLU should be implemented.
Sure, my criteria might not be shared by everyone, but if you suggest I'll have a BLU that's simply another caster DPS that would still have the additional work of hunting for the skills while every other job simply gain them by leveling, there's no way I would chose that type of BLU.

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Then dno't choose it, there's a reason there are MULTIPLE options, and if you don't like ANY of those I can't really help you there chief. You're already coming into this with the idea that "This can't work because I can't envision it working and don't agree with it therefore this option is invalid" so there's not even a point discussing it. To you the BLU implemented is the way BLU should be and any vote that doesn't align with that is invalid to you.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yet they adressed this exact issue.

Source

And I agree with them. What's the incentive of having to hunt and only have a random chance of learning a skill that would at best the same damage as Fire II that is gained "free" ?

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At best the same? Mind Blast is required for the level 20 quest and is 20 potency higher than Fire II, plus it causes Paralysis. It's just downright better than Fire II.

Ok, ok, I'm being pedantic there, I do honestly get your point, I just don't really agree.

For one thing, I found the open world gathering of skills pretty fun, it only became a tedious chore when I started to need skills from duties.
For another thing, open world skill gathering means BLU can take risks to get skills earlier than it normally would, which is a pretty big bonus tbf while leveling.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

So why play one of the harder jobs instead of the easier ones? Because it's what you enjoy better and fits your personal preferences.

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In case you didn't look at several DRK threads, that's basically one of the main complain about it, having to work harder for at best the same result as PLD or WAR.

Besides, you mistake more difficult to play with more difficult to build, when that's two completely different things, since BLU would also require a certain level of skill to play after you obtained all the spells. One option you could have is for BLU damage to only be tied to their level and not their stat. So, they'd have more work to do to earn their spells, but less work to do to gear themselves. Or, like FFXI, that equipping the spells would actually give you bonus stats.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

You're already coming into this with the idea that "This can't work because I can't envision it working and don't agree with it therefore this option is invalid" so there's not even a point discussing it.

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That's not what I said. You came with a "Do you want a different BLU ?" option and I replied "Sure, what BLU are you suggesting ?", to which you basicaly answered "I have no idea". Which is sad, when other people, like GucciSan, actually provided suggestions, which I found very interesting as a compromise. I even suggested myself how one skill could be tweaked to fit party play. That's discussing.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

At best the same? Mind Blast is required for the level 20 quest and is 20 potency higher than Fire II, plus it causes Paralysis. It's just downright better than Fire II.

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BLU doesn't have Astral Fire :p

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Originally Posted by Jandor

For another thing, open world skill gathering means BLU can take risks to get skills earlier than it normally would, which is a pretty big bonus tbf while leveling.

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But if BLU is just a regular job, nothing matters aside from level cap content, so having a skill earlier is not that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

In case you didn't look at several DRK threads, that's basically one of the main complain about it, having to work harder for at best the same result as PLD or WAR.

Besides, you mistake more difficult to play with more difficult to build, when that's two completely different things, since BLU would also require a certain level of skill to play after you obtained all the spells. One option you could have is for BLU damage to only be tied to their level and not their stat. So,they'd have more work to do to earn their spells, but less work to do to gear themselves. Or, like FFXI, that equipping the spells would actually give you bonus stats.

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Yes but at least DRK can play its role and is unrestricted and not gated behind RNG for its spells, yes it's clunky to play with the DA spam but it can in fact tank and do its job BLU cannot even if it works as hard it'll never be a good tank, it'll never be a good healer, and it'll always be a sub par DPS. Also at least DRK can use LB where it matters BLU can't even do that hindering it even more, people talk more about what DRK lost this xpac and how it plays more than its DPS because it feels really bad compared to HW it can easily take part in any kind of content it's only in raiding where you see DRK falling behind when PLD and WAR is superior.

I definitely would love the job to be allowed into raids and duties. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the extra solo content but for it to be the ONLY thing to do, it just seems like something that’ll run its course. 5.0 is around the corner and I can’t imagine putting in ANY time into Blue Mage when I have a new expansion, gear, dungeons, etc. to enjoy.

It’s been mentioned several times that bosses are immune to a lot of status effects and it doesn’t really hit that hard. I would think it would be pretty cool if it wasn’t “limited” to a certain role. I really can’t remember too many of the attacks that some of the monsters have but what if depending on what spells you had equipped, that’s the role you would be. There could be a requirement that you must have an X number of these tanking or DPS or healing spells to be the respective role. I know that would bring some issues but it’s something different.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Yes but at least DRK can play its role and is unrestricted and not gated behind RNG for its spells, yes it's clunky to play with the DA spam but it can in fact tank and do its job BLU cannot even if it works as hard it'll never be a good tank, it'll never be a good healer, and it'll always be a sub par DPS.

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Yes, but we're talking about a non limited BLU. BLU being limited means that it does not follow the same rules than other jobs. It's better at some things, worse at others, but since it lives in its own world, it doesn't really matter. IF BLU was not limited, he thus had to be balanced with other DPS, but then, giving it an additionnal burden compared to them is just not fair.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

BLU doesn't have Astral Fire :p

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Fair, at level 18 with 1 stack that makes Fire II 112 potency I think.
3s cast time though vs 2.5s for Mind Blast, that's an extra Mind Blast every 15s.
But yeah, anyway, it's not quite clear cut Mind Blast is better, that's on me forgetting about how big the AF damage increase is again.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But if BLU is just a regular job, nothing matters aside from level cap content, so having a skill earlier is not that big of a deal.

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Conversely, neither is having it later. It just means skill hunting is a cool unique thing the job has as part of its leveling.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For me, there's still a problem with this poll, because you don't really say how you would implement the first solution.
It's easy to suggest an ideal answer, but if one can't do it, it's still an unrealistic poll.

So, my question is : How would you do a BLU that match at least all the criteria below :

• Have to hunt for spells
• Can hunt spells in mostly random order
• Is customizable to be versatile in content
• Have comparatively more powerful spells than other jobs to compensate for the additional work of hunting them
• Is balanced with every other job so that matchmaking and the meta are not overrun by BLUs

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Two job stones, all blue mages start out with the unchained (wording is irrelevant lol - insert with your favorite word if you want, just we need to be consistent for the sake of this posts clarity). In the mode of unchained we'll be very familiar, you can't do DF but you can do pre-mades. There is no set skills, you can put up whatever you want (literally it's the job we have now).

There are gold highlighted abilities in the book with a little about "chained" level in the tooltip, you may also click a filter button to filter out all the non-gilded abilities (making it easy to manage). Once you learn the first level 1 through X (I'm imagining 10 or 20 level) gilded abilities you unlock a job quest that'll reward you a "chained" job stone, or in concept the reverse side of the job stone. Blue mage flips the jobstone like a coin, with a different aspect of the same theme.

While as chained you cannot use any non-gilded spell. All the gilded spells have two variants, for example level 5 death may look like this:

Unchained blue mage uses gilded-level 5 death: level 5 death has chance to inflict doom onto the enemy.
Chained blue mage: hallowed ground cooldown, any non-boss that would die from 2,000 potency critical will die (border of spell will twinkle like those 30% hp spells bard and other jobs have when the spell is going to work for sure). When cast on a boss or failed to kill a target the spell will deal 500 potency, increase incoming damage by 10% for a short while (impending doom debuff) and go on 90 second cooldown. So DF blue mage would feel very death mage, occasionally, on trash mobs (at the very slow frequency of Hallowedground) and on bosses they've got an oGCD nuke / debuff. For balance reasons raid and savage trash should probably be considered a boss, but that's up to SE.

So you may even see bad breath become gilded, meaning there is a balanced variant for DF. It is really nice to have this dual feature because that means a DF can use iconic blue mage spells in a balance manner without the "unchained" variant suffering from being balanced or losing iconic options (if chained blue mage needs tweaks SE doesn't touch the non-DF variant, they tweak the DF-variant only - unchained blue mage is as unbalanced as SE wants).

Customization I'd argue is not a cornerstone of blue mage, only learning spells. FFXI implemented kit options but in many games, even FFXI, you could learn or not learn many spells (which could be seen as a form of customization). Besides FFXI, which literally asked for a kit to be developed, blue mage may have had long spell lists that were learn-able but so did many other jobs (like frequently black mage's). I'm not quite sold that blue mage needs customization to be blue mage (although I did have fun in FFXI messing around with the passive buffs). Only thing that, imo, blue mage demands to be blue mage is learning spells from monsters. However, with the unchained and chained system you can technically have customization of the unchained variant (as we do now, meaning blue mage does technically have customization). I think the chained version (df) shouldn't have that feature unless SE wants to give us false choices (different colors of the same thing), or tolerate a lot of community hub bub lol (so personally I've never envisioned DF blue mage as customize-able).

Unchained blue mage will have the OP spells yes, chained blue mage may have some gimmicks (like being able to delete a trash mob occasionally) but I would suggest blue mage would not have to do comparatively more work than other jobs. Blue mage levels significantly faster (and easier, solo even) but must learn their spells. The time they save leveling they use getting their spells. In this way I think the time cost of running blue mage becomes more balanced (perhaps not perfectly so, but better).

Blue mage would be balanced by the gilded chained spells, if blue mage overruns the meta it just means SE didn't balance blue mage's DF variant.

DF will check if you're chained or unchained (via what job you are), unchained blue mage's will never be able to enter DF. Chained blue mage will be allowed in under the same rules I suggest everyone else gets (leveling dungeons are lenient on missing spells, capstone dungeons are not (so 51-59, lenient, 60 not). You'll never see a blue mage in your EX party missing spells they should have, and better yet it wont happen on another other job too. (No classes, no missing job quests). Pre-made fun allowed of course, just speaking DF. Although, unchained variant shouldn't be allowed to do current end game content (so current tier savage raids are not ran by a bunch of unchained blue mages, but I think that'll have to be true even for SE's version whenever the level cap catches up).

As for RNG issues for some spells I believe the more times you see the spell it should add a buff that increases the chance to learn, a buff that doesn't fall off (except on log offs and extreme things like that). In this way blue mage also will not suffer some extreme "I can't level with you guys, I've got to run Shiva EX for the 800th time". Also important to make sure to balance unchained blue mage to be able to handle learning every gilded spell solo, no gilded spell should require someone else to carry you. However, you could for example go into a leveling dungeon as chained variant (DF) and learn your spell given that it's one of the spell level bracket DF rules will be lenient on :) (giving blue mage more freedom to learn spells).

Blue mage will have a special content which some people might go "unfair!" but I'd suggest blue mage is the best job for this to be a thing, and even better with an unchained / chained system. Because blue mage levels so easily and the carnival is very gear light content /anyone/ could take part in that content and not work on main-ing blue mage. You'd never need to grind out end game gear just to play the side content, and because this is a job switching game the level of "unfair" is relatively minimal. The people who didn't want to do the side content before will not do it now and the people who were doing it before will still do it now.

SE has to do more work, what say you about that? Yeah... I've got nothing for that, but I think it would be really neat to see them make "advanced jobs" - especially if it adds us weird side content on the same event. Say beastmaster adds a shepherding system, even people who don't want to main beastmaster would get to enjoy the side content and probably wouldn't have seen it otherwise. Puppetmaster giving us customizeable minions that can do tricks, etc.

You guys all understand BLU being kept from df has nothing to do with their dps potential right? For BLU to be allowed in duties regularly, they'd have to just flat out disallow certain spells, like White Wind, Mighty Guard and Diamondback. Would completely trivialize your healers' and tanks' contributions.


It's df, there are dps that do 10% of their dps'ing potential there all the time.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's not what I said. You came with a "Do you want a different BLU ?" option and I replied "Sure, what BLU are you suggesting ?", to which you basicaly answered "I have no idea". Which is sad, when other people, like GucciSan, actually provided suggestions, which I found very interesting as a compromise. I even suggested myself how one skill could be tweaked to fit party play. That's discussing.

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No that's you saying "I don't like this option unless you elaborate on it" to a poll that's mostly supposed to be a vague direction, then you saying the poll doesn't matter since it should have a concrete idea behind or else it's just making an empty promise. That's not discussing that's you having a negative opinion out of the gate when I already said you could attach whatever idea you could see to either choice. Which is why there are four of them, moving the goalpost is just moving the goal post.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, but we're talking about a non limited BLU. BLU being limited means that it does not follow the same rules than other jobs. It's better at some things, worse at others, but since it lives in its own world, it doesn't really matter. IF BLU was not limited, he thus had to be balanced with other DPS, but then, giving it an additionnal burden compared to them is just not fair.

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That's a fair point since DRK isn't limited however, I'm reviewing what we have not what we'll have if it's unlimited and I stand by it since BLU doesn't really have an identity, sure it's a DPS but it isn't so great since it is a burden as of this moment. Maybe in the future it'll change if it ever becomes unlimited but we'd have to see but as of right now it's not a good tank, not a good healer, and a subpar DPS where you'd be better off bringing other forms of DPS like a BLM and a WHM that would clear faster and better with the added benefit of having an LB vs have a BLU.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Two job stones, all blue mages start out with the unchained (wording is irrelevant lol - insert with your favorite word if you want, just we need to be consistent for the sake of this posts clarity).

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Basically, you're suggesting that they made two jobs. Your example of Death is literally two different skills, so I think it's pretty close. If they have done that, I'm not sure we would have two additional jobs in SH. So, from your suggestion, the first choice would be "Would you like a BLU...etc, etc...at the cost of one less job in SH ?"
I'm not sure if that many people would vote for that.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

No that's you saying "I don't like this option unless you elaborate on it"

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No, it's me saying "I don't vote for vague options". You know, what people should actually do if they want to give an educated opinion. Especially considering the previous poll exchange ended with "that poll is flawed". And instead of providing one example, you replied four times with how the poll is completely valid despite being completely vague. And more, you assumed that I'd defend the current BLU no matter what, just so you'd be a victim and not have to elaborate on your idea.

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Originally Posted by Awful

That's a fair point since DRK isn't limited however, I'm reviewing what we have not what we'll have if it's unlimited

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But my concern and me mentioning DRK was a reply to what additionnal work a non-limited BLU would have to do to be on par with other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Basically, you're suggesting that they made two jobs. Your example of Death is literally two different skills, so I think it's pretty close. If they have done, I'm not sure we would have two additional jobs in SH. So, from your suggestion, the first choice would be "Would you like a BLU...etc, etc...at the cost of one less job in SH ?"
I'm not sure if that many people would vote for that.

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I'm not sure that people would have a problem with that, if it was introduced that way from the beginning haha :D. "We're going to have two jobs for SB", info we already have. "One of them is going to be an advanced job with some side content everyone can take part in even if they don't spend time to main it. Advanced jobs are going to bring you additional ways to play the game and spice up the general progression (blue mage learns abilities but levels faster)."

Community: "oh that's different, I wanted some more side content.". Or "Finally I wanted to main blue mage for so long, and new side content? Noice!".

At this point though yeah I think people would be annoyed, if SE said "We're canceling a job for blue mage". Because now you're taking something away (taking away is almost always a negative reaction lol); however, if we started out with the above then I don't think the community would be annoyed - sincerely I don't. To be fair I didn't share a time line with you in the post but I believe they could, maybe, get three jobs out (like they've done before) by starting these advanced jobs in limited state (like now) and updating them into an advanced state over patches (but also telling players their plan lol). Such that you get two at the launch of an expansion and one put between two expansions with explicit info to the community that the limited job becomes advanced, that they're using this as an opportunity to develop new content and get us more jobs than they could normally.

Also worth noting that while the skills have some different effects this job will utilize many of the assets already developed such that Blue Mage becoming an advanced job is more cost effective now than making a new job entirely (many assets are already made, and in game - lore, art, code).

6.5 content begins to lull, beastmaster is released.
7.X (earlier is better, but I'm assuming 7.3-7.5), beastmaster is advanced job. Side beastmaster content is continued to be developed as community enjoys it and SE has ideas.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it's me saying "I don't vote for vague options".

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No that's you saying "I don't like this option unless you elaborate on it"

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And once again you restate what I've already said, I told you the point of the poll was to give you a general idea and options of how you would WANT BLU to advance moving forward. You then stated that option one was flawed because it wasn't elaborated upon and then stated what you felt it would have to do to "keep the spirit of BLU" a topic that was not even the focus of the poll because as has been shown in both BLU's separate iterations and how we all perceive BLU it varies from person to person and from game to game.

You then stated that Yoshida already stated that this was how he envisioned keeping BLU as close to what it was, spiritually and that if I couldn't elaborate on what I thought option 1 was, it was just an empty promise and not, as I previously stated, simply an option that people might have wanted on a poll.

You only had a problem with option one, and never so much as mentioned any of the other one's and continuously hyper focused on it being "too vague" and "not a feasible option" there's no playing the victim here I'm simply stating what your replies were, in wholesale.

The issue with the previous strawpoll was that it was heavily skewed with little options to pick from and was basically asking "Do you want a cookie cutter job or a unique job with solo content" and had ONLY those two choices with no leg room if you were say, someone that liked solo content but wanted to use duty finder.

Either way you're just gaslighting at this point and as I've said this conversation won't go anywhere so there's not much of a reason to continue it and derail the thread, if you want to vote, vote, if you don't, don't.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I'm not sure that people would have a problem with that, if it was introduced that way from the beginning haha :D.

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Considering they teased Gunblade from a long time, it would have ended with a tank (Arguably), a DPS with chained-BLU, and a limited DPS with unchained-BLU. So, my assumption is that healer population would have been pretty upset. And since hope goes toward a Dancer healer, I'd rather stay with the limited BLU. But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

You only had a problem with option one, and never so much as mentioned any of the other one's and continuously hyper focused on it being "too vague" and "not a feasible option" there's no playing the victim here I'm simply stating what your replies were, in wholesale.

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Yes because option one is the only one who advocate for mixing two views, which is the best option to please basically everyone, and thus the one I'm most interested in, if it was doable. What a shock !
And yes, I'm not sure it would be feasible, but I hoped you had actually thought about it instead of simply creating a poll which won't actually prove anything about what could be done.

And I'm pretty sure you'll eventually use the poll results to show that what SE did was wrong and that they should have done option 1.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering they teased Gunblade from a long time, it would have ended with a tank (Arguably), a DPS with chained-BLU, and a limited DPS with unchained-BLU. So, my assumption is that healer population would have been pretty upset. And since hope goes toward a Dancer healer, I'd rather stay with the limited BLU. But that's just me.

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Hmm, I was approaching the question like both jobs were unknown but if we evaluate it assuming gunblade as tank then yeah lol I could see that being more fuel. Which of course makes me a bigger fan of 2 jobs now and 1 job over a longer time frame haha. Of course we both know that's the most demanding option but I feel if we give them enough time it isn't "unfeasible" :). With the added benefit that they've got a head start on it being completed, due to assets already existing now.

Lets say we had NO info on Shadowborn I might imagine two job release with blue mage being like this:
Dancer is healer
Blue Mage is advanced job with unchained being basically a damage dealer / solo (as we have now), and chained being tank.

Which would, imo, be a bit better than we have now with people who exclusively play DD getting not much from the new jobs (assuming gunblade tank, dancer healer).

That said I believe in your example to me would cause healers to be upset, that if gunblade is real (tank) and blue mage is damage dealer. Healer will be like "u wot?" haha. So approaching it as if "shadowborn is two jobs, do you think people would be mad?" no - given that we don't have what we're having now lol (or at least without assuming gunblade is actually a job, it seems very likely). At this point canceling one job, or letting healers down, would add more fuel to the fire. And imo the best choice would be to make blue mage "advanced" over a period of patches (giving players for SB a tank and healer).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes because option one is the only one who advocate for mixing two views, which is the best option to please basically everyone, and thus the one I'm most interested in, if it was doable. What a shock !
And yes, I'm not sure it would be feasible, but I hoped you had actually thought about it instead of simply creating a poll which won't actually prove anything about what could be done.

And I'm pretty sure you'll eventually use the poll results to show that what SE did was wrong and that they should have done option 1.

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It's just a poll, whatever you or anyone chooses to do or suggest ideas for whichever option, is completely up to you/the community to discuss, when I made the option in mind, I thought something like only getting an update on solo content maybe once an expansion hence the CUT BACK on solo content option. Some people might not want that and might want carnival updates, some people might want only skill updates but less carnival updates.

Do you see what I'm saying? talk and discuss it with others how you feel the intricacies of the option should be. That's all, anyway no more replies from me.

I have wanted BLU for a long time and am upset with it being so, as they named it, limited. There are parts that are legit good about it. Leveling in the overworld is nice and can be relaxing, learning the spells feels fun, and the aesthetics and feel of the class are top notch. That said in its' current state I feel no reason for it to be limited. I don't think it really breaks anything in a major way like SE told us and the excuse of what if a BLU doesn't have x spell is weak. It shouldn't be the developer's job to police people in having their job up to par. I've seen people in high end content without soul stones or who haven't gotten their job quest abilities. How is BLU that much different?
The big thing for me is that it honestly feels like this is all we will ever get for BLU. A fad. A piece of side content that will fall away in time. SE in no way so far has given us a feeling that this is a beta or whatever but that this is all they have planned for BLU.
I think the best thing would be to at the moment at least allow them into DF and roulettes. Give them more than just learn the spells only to use them in Masked Carnival. Do I think SE should just make it a full job for Shadowbringers? It'd be nice but I agree more with Shougun. Have Shadowbringers come out with the 2 jobs as full jobs (so Gunblade/Dancer) and make BLU slow get the level cap raised like every odd patch or so. So 5.1 BLU is HW content and we get that segment of grind, 5.3 go into Stormblood, and then may 5.5 make it a legit class. I bet it takes resources and time to make a class like this work and maybe that's what they wanted. Us to test and respond to it so they can have a roadmap. But I think a big part of why people including myself are upset is it doesn't feel that way. It comes across that this is all we are kind of getting for BLU. It being glorified side content. It is a class that deserves better. I think if we heard them say anything towards BLU becoming a full class in the future there would be not nearly as much anger amongst the community. Sure, some would be bummed, myself included, that we couldn't immediately run Shadowbringer as BLU but I think many could be patient enough to wait out the storm. We've already waited this long.
So yeah just my thoughts but BLU doesn't seem to do anything to earn it being limited as is. I hope they address this at Fanfest. Who knows? Maybe they will come out and say that they are going to do something like we've been suggesting. But for now, all we have is a lacking piece of side content which is sooo close to being what many people wanted but is cut off at the knees. And honesty? That it is so close to being right but locked away is one of the most frustrating things about it.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Lets say we had NO info on Shadowborn

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Considering we got two DPS in Stormblood, people would have been upset if we didn't have healer/tank for SH...although to be fair, it's not actually confirmed we'll have another healer :p

On another topic, the more I think of it, the more appealing it feels to replace gear with spell hunting for BLU. It would break the mold of grinding tomes every 6 months, and you could still aim for the same content, with some skills being available only in Savage on even patches, and in the next 24-man raid, exactly like the upgrade system for gear. You would replace obsolete spells the same way you replace obsolete gear, for example replacing 1 000 needles by 10 000 needles, or even 100 000 needles in a few years, etc...And the spells you equip could have a corresponding "ilvl" that would work with the DF or RF requirement.

Thank you for creating this thread you have my full support!

Sorry but it's a useless topic.
If SE had made the BLU a limited job, there's a good reason for that.
And if the devs give you that, it will be "nert this, buff that blablabla...". Endless story.

Join WPD for BLU

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering we got two DPS in Stormblood, people would have been upset if we didn't have healer/tank for SH...although to be fair, it's not actually confirmed we'll have another healer :p

On another topic, the more I think of it, the more appealing it feels to replace gear with spell hunting for BLU. It would break the mold of grinding tomes every 6 months, and you could still aim for the same content, with some skills being available only in Savage on even patches, and in the next 24-man raid, exactly like the upgrade system for gear. You would replace obsolete spells the same way you replace obsolete gear, for example replacing 1 000 needles by 10 000 needles, or even 100 000 needles in a few years, etc...And the spells you equip could have a corresponding "ilvl" that would work with the DF or RF requirement.

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I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or agreeing haha, sorry XD. Are you quoting that line because you're like "yeah, we should be getting a healer and tank otherwise people will be upset" (which is really me agreeing with you first lol) or were you under the interpretation that I said something counter to that?

Just in case I meant by that line if we had no info/leaks/trailers to go off or if for some thal knows why reason I had personally made the plan for SE - I'd of course follow the SB+ needs to be tank and healer, by making dancer healer and tank blue mage (aka if I could go back in time and wipe away the gunblade tank hype, which I would NOT do now - just leads to further upset). While unchained (non-DF version of blue) would be very strong/unbalanced damage/solo power with some hints to tanking style, in attempt to give DD players a palate cleanser of destruction as well as an easy and comfortable taste of tank (like SMN does, somewhat, for SCH - DD to healer, blue mage is the gateway of DD to tank). In that way while yes technically DD received no job in the expansion yet they would have something down their alley (for cleaning up old content that no one is running, also where normally wipe mechanics can't be solo'd, and getting a wonder of what it'd be like to be tank, maybe converting some people along the way). Of course if they go the three job route then everyone gets one job, given enough time (Tank/Healer right away and DD a bit later via advanced blue).

As for the idea of spells = gear/ilvl, that's an interesting concept.. Obviously it'd need a few systems, checks and balances, but given enough creativity and careful crafting it might work~ Certainly would be a different concept. Worse case scenario for "gating" some of the progress like other jobs have with weekly tomestones would be unlocking special arenas to learn spells from (you unlock fights against special monsters that have spells to learn to up your "ilvl", or less fun increase the % of earning a spell that's hard to get).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

or were you under the interpretation that I said something counter to that?

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I understood what you said as "without any prior information on any jobs, people would have been ok with BLU (A regular DPS BLU) being one the SH jobs, alongside a healer (or a tank)". If it's not, then yes we're agreeing that we need both a healer and a tank. Which goes all the way back to the difficulty of creating a "dual crystal" BLU in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

by making dancer healer and tank blue mage

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That could work, in theory. Since BLU mostly was a very versatile job, it would probably get less salt than when DRK was revealed to be a tank. And it's probably easier to design a "solo" branch once the core is sturdy enough to survive regular hits.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

As for the idea of spells = gear/ilvl, that's an interesting concept.. Obviously it'd need a few systems, checks and balances, but given enough creativity and careful crafting it might work~ Certainly would be a different concept.

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First thing is tweaking BLU gear so that it doesn't give any stats. The good part is that it wouldn't compete against other caster...it could wear replicas to have access to every skin for glamour purpose. As for gating progress, I think there are plenty of solutions, that wouldn't really be hard to implement especially if we still have the Masked Carnival. Your idea of a special arena could be unlocked for the week by dropping a "monster sprout" from Raids, so that you'll face a weaker version of that monster as a solo BLU. And on top of that, the arena would drop Whalaqee Shards so that if you're unlucky with your special carnival attempt, you'll eventually be able to buy the spell with a completed Whalaqee Totem, like Savage tokens.

So, to sum up, we would have a BLU with a set of core skills automatically unlocked, but with skill variants hunted in open-world or instances to tweak those skills, and an endgame spell hunt in place of endgame gearing. I'd really like to keep some customization with the skill variants, as long as you equip enough of them to match the required ilvl. Yeah, frankly, I think that could work. The good part is that each ilvl upgrade would not automatically make all your skills obsolete so that each hunted skill would probably have a longer lifespan than the gear jobs usually grind for. That would be a really good incentive to not skip a whole step of content if you'd like a very specific skill.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

On another topic, the more I think of it, the more appealing it feels to replace gear with spell hunting for BLU. You would replace obsolete spells the same way you replace obsolete gear, for example replacing 1 000 needles by 10 000 needles, or even 100 000 needles in a few years, etc...And the spells you equip could have a corresponding "ilvl" that would work with the DF or RF requirement.

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That's a genuinely interesting idea.

I'm fairly surprised that there are actual people against a more refined middle ground for BLU that stands true to it's roots but with an FFXIV twist.

Having completed all the content BLU can possibly give at it's current stage, to see anyone say this is impossible to implement or be too difficult is insane. They have made/and changed 3 classes in their FFXIV counterparts but kept similar to some extent (SMN/RDM/AST) and people albeit swallowed those down easier (sometimes not).

Will it require effort by the Dev team to balance? Absolutely but I think I can say a majority of the player base would like to see BLU as a fully flushed out class. The masked carnivale could instead be its actual Job quests alongside the ability learning.

The element to learning skills can stay there, a requirement for skills learned before raiding can be implemented, a rotation can be generated, and immunities can be granted to bosses as they already are.

Imagine BLU as a tank for a minute as an example. How vast of an improvement would this be to the overall game in terms of tank availability alone?

Really, what is the excuse here? Considering they have all the power to control everything in game, why be scared of a class that can sandbox a little.

So yeah I waited to see how it would go I have all the spells and masked carnival done and unfortunately the only thing broken about blue mage is it doesn't do whats on the tin and that's ability to solo.

As for over powered? Under powered there is not reason this couldn't be a main job since you limited all the good spells already in fact blue mage could use some buffing even if it stayed a limited job.

Interesting Idea but please don't bother again if this the end result as its a class with nothing to do nothing to spend allied seals on making its own special content point less maybe if they added centrio seals as a reward it might keep it going for a while.

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Originally Posted by vaitepiha

Sorry but it's a useless topic.
If SE had made the BLU a limited job, there's a good reason for that.
And if the devs give you that, it will be "nert this, buff that blablabla...". Endless story.

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I think it's really funny that people will literally accept being given a non-job over the HORROR of people discussing balance issues on the forums, balance issues which, were Blue Mage to be made into a proper job, would only affect Savage and Ultimate anyway. That and the fact you seem to believe the dev team is infallible (despite having proven mistakes such as Pagos in their record) makes it seem you didn't think too hard about this.

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Originally Posted by vaitepiha

If SE had made the BLU a limited job, there's a good reason for that.

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I will give you there probably was a reason. But they also had a reason for Greed Only on alliance raids. Hell, they thought Eureka was a good idea and it's maybe the single most divisive thing they've introduced into the game. Not everything the devs do ends up being good for the game and its playerbase.
Will they change it based on this thread and others like it? Maybe. But they definitely will not change a thing if people don't ask them to, if people don't let them know there's negative feedback.

I don't see a middle ground with BLU to be honest, a job that have 50-170 skills balanced against the other 15 jobs? It's easy to say it will be hard but it can be done when you are not part of the balance team that have to deal with it, right now BLU have the number of skills of 2 jobs and soon it will be even more, it's not going to be hard, it's going to be a Damm nightmare to balance that, we are talking of the same Dev team that keep DRK, WHM and MCH in the current sad status the entire expansion and the ones who take ages to buff SAM and BLM and keep the WAR and SCH mandatory another 2 years more and ppl want to make his job extremely more difficult at the same time we get more jobs and stuff? BLU will eat a insane amount of resources and time for that and it will be probably meta forever since the chance of find unintended ways to use it and exploids it will be more high that any current job.

The only way I saw BLU being unlimited as any other job is having a hard limit of 20-30 skills like any other job and being balance with the other dps, the learn mechanic is lackbuster since compared to any other job BLU can appear with only water cannon if they want, I agree with Yoshi there, of course it will be dedicated BLU mains that will have everything and say this is a weak excuse but I wanna see who many are going to accept BLUs in they party that miss half of they skill set making infinity longer to kill stuff in a dungeon, make it have certain number of skill to let it get in? And if the player miss key skills? Devs will have to work pretty hard to make a dedicate matchmaking requeriment for BLU, again not a problem for dedicated BLU but it will no take much time until casual players complaing a lot for this, it can be done yeah so I'm indiferent with that.

I understand the sentiment of wanting to main BLU but we have to be realistic, it's or one thing or another, BLU now is in his first stage and really I don't like it the way it's going not bcs the mechanics or masked carnival but the way it's going to broke all the content in his way, all being said they at least should make a duty finder only for BLUs to improve the learning of skills in dungeons and primals with other BLUs rewarding with higher chance to get the skill in that way and other rewards to keep ppl using it to help new ones like a BLU roulette or something like that.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I don't see a middle ground with BLU to be honest, a job that have 50-170 skills balanced against the other 15 jobs? It's easy to say it will be hard but it can be done when you are not part of the balance team that have to deal with it, right now [...]

The only way I saw BLU being unlimited as any other job is having a hard limit of 20-30 skills like any other job and being balance with the other dps, the learn mechanic is lackbuster since compared to any other job BLU can appear with only water cannon if they want, I agree with Yoshi there, of course it will be dedicated BLU mains that will have everything and say this is a weak excuse but I wanna see who many are going to accept BLUs in they party that miss half of they skill set making infinity longer to kill stuff in a dungeon, make it have certain number of skill to let it get in? And if the player miss key skills? Devs will have to work pretty hard to make a dedicate matchmaking requeriment for BLU, again not a problem for dedicated BLU but it will no take much time until casual players complaing a lot for this, it can be done yeah so I'm indiferent with that.

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You kinda just gave the answer in your own post. Have x amount of skills that are balanced and that are the only onces allowed in instances. And have the rest of the skills be unbalanced and for solo content and overworld. There a middle ground. And if balancing the same amount of skills that other jobs need, is too much work then maybe we should never get a new job at all because each new one will need some balance.

And the argument that some would go into dungeons with only one spell? Why is that fine for Blue but not for every single other job? What stops other jobs from going into something with only one spell? Exactly, nothing. Suddenly making Blue the example that is not allowed to do that is just bad. Solution for this: Introduce a system that checks if the players have the needed skills and if not, dont let them in (no matter which job) and on top of that they can also give a fixed bar like they do in PVP. There no more job that will go into a dungeon unprepared.

Also breaking content: This was already proven to be false at least with his skills right now. There are some stronger primal ones and some others but first most of these dont work on certain bosses and second the rest of the skill are quite low in damage outputs. So if a limited job that needs to get skills from certain content cant do that solo or with blue mages only...then maybe that is a limited job that is far away from breaking content thus should have been able to go into instances the normal way and be a normal job.