Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

This isn't even true right now and won't magically be true in 4.0

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Except it's only not true right now because WHM runs out mana, which likely won't be the case come 4.0. So it won't magically be true, but it could very well be logically true come 4.0
it only wouldn't be if they changed the raiding meta which would just also likely work in WHM's favor anyway.

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Originally Posted by Epo

Except it's only not true right now because WHM runs out mana, which likely won't be the case come 4.0. So it won't magically be true, but it could very well be logically true come 4.0
it only wouldn't be if they changed the raiding meta which would just also likely work in WHM's favor anyway.

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1. No it isn't even true right now even if you don't consider mana. WHM's sustained single-target DPS is in the vicinity of 1700~1900 in BiS before mana runs out, which is at best 100~200 DPS above SCH/AST.

2. A single Astrologian Expanded Balance buff is at least worth 1500 DPS in an average group. It's much more than that when done in the opener.

3. It wouldn't even work in WHM's favor if the fights are healing-intensive because ASTs are going to have better raw healing than WHM.

You can, of course, argue that 100~200 > 1500 in your alternate universe with a different set of mathematical rules.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

1. No it isn't even true right now even if you don't consider mana. WHM's sustained single-target DPS is in the vicinity of 1700~1900 in BiS before mana runs out, which is at best 100~200 DPS above SCH/AST.

2. A single Astrologian Expanded Balance buff is at least worth 1500 DPS in an average group. It's much more than that when done in the opener.

3. It wouldn't even work in WHM's favor if the fights are healing-intensive because ASTs are going to have better raw healing than WHM.

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I can't even take you seriously since all your past posts indicate you're a troll.

I'd be very cautious about making huge sweeping theory crafting assumptions on the tooltips we've been shown so far, They are absolutely riddled with errors.

Personally I'm absolutely overjoyed with the MP improvements and Assize changes alone, the 4.0 abilities will shine in early progression as well. Meh.

I'm pretty sure personal DPS isn't considered raid utility otherwise Monks would have the most raid utility not none as everyone says.

It will entirely depend upon how much damage needs to be healed, and if there is a return of the "only-healing healer", in which case WHM (and as it looks PLD) might be mandatory, and not outdated. I hope so. I would prefer a world where you NEED a Whm if you are not overgeared like hell to complete content, and can pick one of the others as support, simply because WHM is the most-played healer and thus should be the most-represented.

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Originally Posted by Epo

I can't even take you seriously since all your past posts indicate you're a troll.

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It's ok to admit you can't handle reality.

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Originally Posted by Epo

Although I'll admit I do like your ideas! But I still don't think Cure and Cure II are things WHM don't already use often. Especially if they're main healer with a sch off heal.

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1. Go look at top WHMs on FFlogs and see the amount of Cure1/Cure2 casts throughout an entire fight on damage-intensive ones like A11/12S.

2. The concept of main/off-healer is already completely debunked and is considered suboptimal. Don't know which rock you just crawled out from.

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Originally Posted by Epo

I can't even take you seriously since all your past posts indicate you're a troll.

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He is not lying and you are using his name as an excuse to ignore his facts.

Who is the troll here now?

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

It will entirely depend upon how much damage needs to be healed, and if there is a return of the "only-healing healer", in which case WHM (and as it looks PLD) might be mandatory, and not outdated. I hope so. I would prefer a world where you NEED a Whm if you are not overgeared like hell to complete content, and can pick one of the others as support, simply because WHM is the most-played healer and thus should be the most-represented.

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I feel that designing a fight so that a specific class is mandatory would be a failure in design.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

He is not lying and you are using his name as an excuse to ignore his facts.

Who is the troll here now?

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I'm not ignoring his "facts," I'm saying that just by him responding indicates to me that whm is doing fine =/ Not using his name against him, just what I've learned to expect. I don't parse so I really don't know if what he's saying is true, nor do I feel like figuring out how to use FFlogs. I'm not saying he's lying or wrong, I'm just saying I can't take him at his word.

I actually really love pure healing but even if that is the case (and I doubt it would be as DF cannot force the presence of certain jobs) there's still the problem that we have even fewer tools; I already take SCH or AST to my FC's undersized/min ilv runs because WHM can't contribute as much as either and this is just going further in that direction; my WHM is relegated to PVP or faceroll content where I can DPS. Plus, if it was mandatory you would think they'd add some fun new stuff to encourage people to play it and not jump ship to jobs which actually offer something new other than a tedious-sounding RNG resource management mini game on top of our existing RNG resource management mechanics. Healing unnecessarily to fish for random things which make us even stronger at unnecessary overhealing just can't get me excited mechanically.

I joined the forums to add my voice to this list. I love WHM, I know it's not considered meta but it's the job I chose when I started the game and I am very attached to it. Please, SE, make some changes before Stormbloods release. The changes to WHM are not fun at all and have left me less excited to start my Stormblood adventure.

Does anyone knows what's happen in japanese forums? Are they frustrated too about how they want to implement whm?

I really hope they change something till Stormblood... :(

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

It ASTOUNDS me that people give the OP the time of day considering all his threads.

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Regardless of his past posting history, this post is well thought out, relevant, and accurate to exactly what's happening with White Mage in Stormblood. He's 100% right.

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Originally Posted by Epo

I'm not ignoring his "facts,"

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That's exactly what you're doing, and you know it.

He's not wrong. Past posting aside, it's the truth. While yes, things may change come expansion day, it's still very likely that what he has said will remain true for quite some time. WHM cannot maintain high single target DPS AND heal indefinitely, so even though their personal DPS might be a biiiiit higher than the other healers, it is simply not enough to make up for the fact that it absolutely cannot compete with AST buffs and SCH utility. So no, their damage will not be on par with whatever buffs the healers get... whatever it was you said. It probably still wouldn't be even if they nerfed Balance to 5%.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But Ama didn't change it. The source is reddit. And the person who posted it on reddit posted a link to the source for that.

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^

If anyone would be at fault, it would be the OP of the reddit thread I linked. And even then he gave a proper link to the original comic that he didn't claim to own.

Now can we drop this sub-thread about content ownership?

Can't say since I don't know japanese, but I'm sure they are saying the same thing about lilies and confessions based on spam cure to proc.

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Originally Posted by fantasticm

That's exactly what you're doing, and you know it.

He's not wrong. Past posting aside, it's the truth. While yes, things may change come expansion day, it's still very likely that what he has said will remain true for quite some time. WHM cannot maintain high single target DPS AND heal indefinitely, so even though their personal DPS might be a biiiiit higher than the other healers, it is simply not enough to make up for the fact that it absolutely cannot compete with AST buffs and SCH utility. So no, their damage will not be on par with whatever buffs the healers get... whatever it was you said. It probably still wouldn't be even if they nerfed Balance to 5%.

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WHM cannot maintain high single target dps and heal indefinitely? Why not? Mana? It seems like mana won't be much of an issue in this patch.

The Japanese forums are significantly less dramatic than ours in general, but there are plenty of concerns mentioned by WHM mains at how underwhelming we're going to be.

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Originally Posted by Epo

I'm not ignoring his "facts," I'm saying that just by him responding indicates to me that whm is doing fine =/ Not using his name against him, just what I've learned to expect. I don't parse so I really don't know if what he's saying is true, nor do I feel like figuring out how to use FFlogs. I'm not saying he's lying or wrong, I'm just saying I can't take him at his word.

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Then take me at my word. What he is saying is true and frankly your math doesn't even come close to adding up.

WHM dps doesn't even come close to competing with the damage benefits of Balance evne now and our dps isn't going to be that much higher than theirs in SB particularly when you factor in their new skills. Lord cards alone are going to mitigate a lot of the single target damage advantage we have and Aero 3 is our only benefit in AoE since Gravity does the same damage as Holy. Lets just say a AST casts Balance on a BLM without any royal road. That is 20% of that BLMs dps increased. At the moment a BLM should be pulling well above 2000. Lets just say its a lame BLM who in current high level gear can only pull 2000. That is a 400 dps increase onto the groups dps. That is a non royal roaded Balance. A royal roaded one would be adding over 1000dps. You really think WHM damage output is going to be high enough above ASTs to make up for that?

Further, without good RNG WHM healing isn't even that far beyond ASTs and is generally less easy to use. Earthly Star can heal for twice what Assize does the moment it is cast and will heal for 3 times Assize's heal if it has been cast for ten seconds. None of WHM's healer mechanics proc unless they are spamming Cure or Cure 2. If your dpsing your not procing those heals.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Then take me at my word. What he is saying is true and frankly your math doesn't even come close to adding up. WHM dps doesn't even come close to competing with the damage benefits of Balance evne now and our dps isn't going to be that much higher than theirs in SB particularly when you factor in their new skills. Further, without good RNG WHM healing isn't even that far beyond ASTs and is generally less easy to use. Earthly Star can heal for twice what Assize does the moment it is cast and will heal for 3 times Assize's heal if it has been cast for ten seconds.

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Thank you. I will take your word for it. Although, I do still believe my math is not too far from adding up. (Even if my maths are bad) Because WHM already, in current content, out dpses the other healers, yes? But they run out of mana. So if they already can do it, and now we don't run out of mana nearly as fast....I'm having trouble seeing how we don't excel in that department by loads =/

I am annoyed by the job trailer for Whm. We had to wait so many days for an embargo. We can't change retainers jobs because SB is co close, so the players who have retainers have to force themselves to play White Mage if they want to level said Whm retainers. I don't understand why Blm and other Jobs were focused so much by yoshida. When the job preview for a healer in general is lackluster. All I see in my job preview is a stone 4, cure, a aero, and a pull that isnt even unique to my fucking job. Thanks for putting NO EFFORT INTO our job preview that players need clarrifcation on. Took you a whole 10 minutes to make that whm portion of the video, maybe the lily system took 10 minutes as well. I really hope your statistics don't say well all these whm are 70 because they like it when in reality we are forced to level for retainers. :)

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Originally Posted by Epo

Thank you. I will take your word for it. Although, I do still believe my math is not too far from adding up. (Even if my maths are bad) Because WHM already, in current content, out dpses the other healers, yes? But they run out of mana. So if they already can do it, and now we don't run out of mana nearly as fast....I'm having trouble seeing how we don't excel in that department by loads =/

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You're not necessarily wrong. The new changes adress WHM's current issue with MP sustainance. Actually, the change made to Assize is a very good decision and one I had previously said would help alleviate WHM's MP problems: Longer Shroud of Saints and Assize on a 1 m cd definitely make WHM's MP regen more or less on par with SCH's during HW. Thin Air will very likely help push this forward, as pairing it with the new Cleric Stance and Presence of Mind -if a WHM is feeling ballsy during progression (about not needing Thin Air for emergency chain raising or etc) will provide a very powerful window of burst damage that will cause zero strain on WHM's MP.

However, the points the rest of the posters here are trying to make is that, regardless of the difference of personal DPS White Mage can put out over SCH and AST's, this contribution still cannot outweight what Balance and Strategem do for the other 7 party members. AST's guaranteed +10% damage on everyone on pull for 40 seconds is an incredibly massive DPS increase, specially given how most jobs in the game now have ways of buffing other party member's damage for short bursts of time- the only ones unable to do this being SAM, PLD, DRK and WHM. The power of an Expanded Balance during the opening phase of a fight quite easily blows WHM's personal DPS contribution out of the water. Add to this that AST has a pretty good chance to keep on pumping expanded Balances throughout the fight and yep, it can't even be debated.

What most people are angry about isn't that WHM is unable to clear and bring good personal DPS, it's that AST can bring just as much healing as WHM (at least as much as is necessary) while also providing an astonishing amount of raid DPS increments for absolutely no sacrifice. It's an imbalance in risk-reward that needs to be adressed, in my opinion by giving WHM slightly higher personal potency increases and adjusting the negligible Lilly Mechanic, and tunning AST's healing potential down by a whole freaking lot to make it a high-risk/high-reward job that might make progression raid groups (and PF farms :P) think twice if they want the safety net of WHM or AST's enhanced utility but lower healing capability.

I remember vidily when the Data center moved within 24hrs a Community Rep made a post addressing it, boy do I wonder if the reps would ease our worry. Where could they be.

Every time I try to write out anything about these changes, I get so angry that I actually lose all excitement for the launch. The long and short of it is, I feel like Charlie Brown.

All the happy kids (other classes): I got five pieces of candy! I got a chocolate bar! I got a quarter!

Charlie Brown (WHM):....I got a rock.

Whether the numbers are rebalanced heavily to make the lilies and confessions less of a disaster or not still doesn't change the core problem for me as a filthy casual, that the job will feel almost exactly the same at 70 (only with fewer buttons). In HW, I was excited to level up because things like Assize and Tetragrammaton made a measurable, exciting difference to how I played. I feel annoyed when I'm synced and lose access to certain spells because they affect how I approach fights.

Thin Air will be good for faceroll content and hard fights alike, but everything else is just tweaking stuff we already had in various controversial, randomly-triggered ways. It's so dull, and even the lower levels are more dull than before thanks to having so much stripped out.

The frustrating thing about Rescue being the main showcase for the new abillities is that it will be difficult to justify taking such a situational ability over critical core abilities we need to claw back from cross-class.

I hope the JP forum staff will reply to the JP healer concerns soon.

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Originally Posted by Epo

WHM cannot maintain high single target dps and heal indefinitely? Why not? Mana? It seems like mana won't be much of an issue in this patch.

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Yes, MP, exactly. The key word is indefinitely. Longer? Sure. But unless we somehow gain access to Umbral Ice buffs (I wish) it's still a limited resource.

As Skyrior said before, and Fernosaur has pointed out again, WHM's very slight lead in personal DPS over the other two healers is nowhere near enough for them to pull ahead in the 'who adds the most to raid wide DPS' department. The only area in which WHM DPS really shines is in 4-man dungeons, since you don't really need to worry about composition. Speed is generally preferred, and even with the horrible changes, WHM still edges out AST with AoE DPS balls-to-the-walls nuking, and their single target is still great for bosses.

At least we still have that... FOR NOW. inb4 Gravity gets buffed to 2.0 Holy only without the stun.

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Originally Posted by BroodingFicus

Every time I try to write out anything about these changes, I get so angry that I actually lose all excitement for the launch. The long and short of it is, I feel like Charlie Brown.

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I hear you. I've been feeling that way ever since they mentioned job rebalances and there wouldn't be a new healing job and it sucked. Knowing the changes are out, I feel relieved a bit. Angry? Yes. But relieved. I know I won't be maining WHM in the expansion, and I'm the kind of person who levels every job out there, so I'll try something different until WHM gets its fixes. I suggest trying the same. Do something new and let the low healer and WHM numbers show SE that something is very wrong with their decisions.

I was just in a Dun Scaith run that was going as well as you would expect a Dun Scaith run to go. Meaning: terrible. A healer and two DPS from another alliance ended up bailing, and while waiting, this exchange happened.

http://i.imgur.com/7KKObZZ.png

I am not shitting you right now.

The remaining healer in that alliance was a SCH, and the new healer that arrived was another SCH. I needn't tell you that out of all healer combinations, double SCH is possibly the worst one due to the barriers overwriting each other and other issues. Of course, this isn't a big deal for casual content, so wtv.

The point is...

SB hasn't even hit and WHM is already considered incapable of doing Duty Finder content by people who think they understand the game's meta :')

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Originally Posted by Azper

Oh boy...

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Good lord, so one can learn everything about a job just by reading tooltips and buying what others(who are they and how much time they spent "playing" the new whm?) say like a sheep?

I guess unfortunate players like me, who spent months on one job , honing their skills by playing have been doing it all wrong...

Cheers,
D.

This is going to trickle down hard. The truth is, despite how boring, how badly designed the lily system is, how bad we were gutted and how AST heals for more, mitigates for more and buffs for more than us, we would still be VIABLE in dungeon/ex trial content.

Now that's good enough for SE I guess, but the rest of the community is going to shun WHM like crazy. Yes even though it won't directly effect them, endgame raiders are going to mention just how horrible WHM is standing next to the likes of AST and SCH. And I hope it happens really. Maybe SE will actually try next time...

Outside of raid content, I find it hard to believe anyone is going to have fun with this. Outside of cure spam, WHM has not changed one bit. In fact, if you're not the type to spam cure, you'll have LESS abilities and Less healing power than in 3.0 lmao...

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Let's not say it's final though. It can change before release.

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Again, I would like to point out. The only thing that's likely to change is numbers here and there. I seriously doubt any amount of number tweaking is going to help WHM out. They need to rework this whole design =/

SE seems to keep trying to push pressure to get me to quit WHM...

You all took my fireballs and shock spikes away before 2.0, but I still have my pimp cane!

Melee hitting while casting cure I till the end of time!

I don't need rng heals, I've been happily under preforming since the start.

Don't know why everyone's in a rage. I'll happily take the challenge!

Happy spamming cure then ?

No one's saying you should quit permanently or at all. A lot of us see SE feeding us a big pile of dog crap and the other jobs get chocolate pudding. We'd rather have some chocolate pudding. That's all.

^ think you're taking me a tad too seriously.

I for one happily look forward to joining dungeons and raids and everyone having that confused but sad reaction where they realize they got the short stick... but they don't want to wait another 20 min to get another healer.

I'd like to think I'm not alone in this feeling

Come raid time you will regret it.

Your biggest challenge will be actually getting a raid spot.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I for one happily look forward to joining dungeons and raids and everyone having that confused but sad reaction where they realize they got the short stick... but they don't want to wait another 20 min to get another healer.

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That's a really bad attitude to have. You'll get kicked. I say that as a former WHM main.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Again I will point out to use these abilities as normal. Don't sit on them waiting forRNGesus to be in a good mood. In the worst case scenario, you get absolutely no lilies before a CD expires, and this equates to nothing lost, nothing gained. The more abilities that fall under this umbrella the better. So you're not in a situation where the reduced CD works on Assize, but not Asylum; however this particular group has an undergeared tank, and you could really use that reduced CD on Asylum. Every stack of confession, and every lily proc serves to increase your ability to keep a party alive or increase DPS output, or both.

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You do not build a mechanic around exceedingly rare circumstances. There is no way they will have dungeon hit hard enough you'll need every CD in your arsenal just for a low geared tank to survive. They don't even do this in Savage.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

"Give an inch. Take a mile." I use that saying often here because this is a great example of it. 4% reduction to a 60 sec CD (currently the shortest) is nearly the equivalent of a global cooldown. How often is it mentioned here just how valuable those are? So much so that clipping DoTs is a big no-no, and weaving in Aero on your way to cast Fluid Aura is a big yes-yes? Why have you all of a sudden forgotten? Let's say you run, what I consider to be an average of a 14-minute dungeon run. How many free gcds does that come to assuming you get one lily per CD (which you will)? I'm terrible at math.

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None.

That is how worthless 4%. it amounts to a two second reduction on a sixty second CD, which is laughable. You will never benefit from that once in even a twenty minute fight, which this game has none of. At 10%, you see a meager benefit of one extra Assize per ten minutes. Of course, this doesn't factor walking distance between pulls. Chances are, you will still never benefit from this outside bosses. And even then, it'll be once. We haven't even begun to discuss the pitfalls of cooldown reduction systems in a game where everyone pre-plans their abilities due to the scripted nature of fight mechanics. Cliffnotes version, even if you could proc Lilies fairly consistently, you'll benefit exceptionally little from what amounts to a Spear card.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I am quite sure adjustments will be made. But for right now, you have to re-think how you play WHM. If you play it the way you do now, and assuming DMG isn't ramped up, you won't benefit from the lily system. I also find it very strange that AST is basically the opposite of WHM, and everyone is ooh-ing and ahh-ing over pretty lights and animations, knowing much less about how these skills will work in combat opposed to WHM. Maybe that's just me though?

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My adjustment will be to play a job that isn't horribly gimped. People are not going to abruptly start Cure spamming because the devs have no idea how to balance healers, or seemingly how their own game is played. Astro has remained largely unchanged except to be gifted its own version of Assize, a buff to its Sects, which makes it a stronger single target healer than White Mage and a way to throw away cards to either heal or deal damage. People are gushing over Astro because its perks are amazing.

Now I actually want to posit something. Spear is unanimously considered Royal Road fodder. It offers a 10% reduction of cooldowns to the raid; 20% on a single target. Oh my! The Lily mechanic already exists... and Astros burn it for better card buffs. That says just how much we value CD reduction in this game.

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Originally Posted by dlgc

Good lord, so one can learn everything about a job just by reading tooltips and buying what others(who are they and how much time they spent "playing" the new whm?) say like a sheep?

I guess unfortunate players like me, who spent months on one job , honing their skills by playing have been doing it all wrong...

Cheers,
D.

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When a tooltip says that you'll get a stack at a 20% chance by using Cure and Cure II, you don't need to spend months practicing it to realize it's garbage.

On a more serious note... I disagree with the raid comment.
At least in my experience. Been raiding since this game was made (off and on) and I have and will never join a group unless I really like the people in it. Never once had an issue with jobs.

Of course for those who had multiple jobs, we'd switch around and what not... but we'd make what we had work.

Sorry but the last concern I have, and those like me in terms of raiding, is optimizing the job lineup.

I know I'm not alone in this but there's definitely those who disagree.... and I pity people in those groups because this games difficulty doesn't warrant that level of seriousness >.>