M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Maybe I want to play the holy knight class who uses white magic who has some healing utility? I really don't wanna play some robe "classic" healer, I'd like to play a tank with some healing support options which has been done in games before.

This argument that ANY healing whatsoever encroaches on healers makes zero sense, Abilities such as Holy sheltron's regen is fine, it's a single target regen gunbreaker's had aurora from the start no one's complained about that warrior had Equilibrium, which i think hasn't been a issue.

The Actual issue is the Combined Mitigation and sustain is too high, not that a Job like paladin can give out a regen tied to their mitigation cooldown, or even one single aoe heal. If tanks were taking more damage in the first place and had half as much sustain healers would certainly need to heal but you could also keep some level of sustain & healing on tanks.

But it does seem you're very committed to taking away healing from tanks for the because of trying to appeal to a very base line version of the trinity system.

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The thing is you’ve latched on to a specific facet I’ve responded to you directly without understanding that I’ve dealt with people who have exactly the reverse opinion as you and in both situations you’ve told me I’m wrong and the opposite solution is the one to be the fix

Your point that PLD’s sustain would be fine if they upped the damage is valid, but then random forum user qphksjtlwymj346 will come in and say “if you buff damage you need to buff our sustain to compensate otherwise it’s a nerf to me”

If I come across as jaded it’s because I’ve been discussing this issue for years and no matter which direction I approach the problem from someone seems to have a problem then another person will act like the solution that just got rebuked is the obvious solution and I’m an idiot for not seeing it

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xINq44-heQc

Please discuss.

....aaaaaaand post quick reply

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The fuck is that music?

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

But they have so much they're invincible even up to extreme content. Most people here are asking that "Hey, maybe the tanks shouldn't be invincible" and your response is asking why you want to take away their fun...

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Designing a job around being invincible is not "fun", it's incompetence. If they can't think of a way to make the role desirable without breaking most content, then this isn't really a trinity role based game. So either tanks need to be nerfed to be brought into balance or everything else needs
to be buffed to bring them in line with tanks.

As has been mentioned repeatedly. XiV doesn't have a lot to work with. Healing, mitigation, damage. It's not hard to not screw it up. But if you're going to, then there needs to be some kind of consistent standard across the combat.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Wow... it's almost like healers use to have an engaging damage rotation, and they took it away so not as many people enjoy the role lol.

If tanks want to have fun dealing damage they should play dps.

I don't really care that tanks have healing, it's basically the only utility the game can give since they've watered down so many aspects of job design. But they have so much they're invincible even up to extreme content. Most people here are asking that "Hey, maybe the tanks shouldn't be invincible" and your response is asking why you want to take away their fun...

Let tanks be Gods at mitigation, let them stop 90% of all the damage for all I care, but let the hp they do lose be the healers' job.

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My response is hey maybe don't take parts that have drove many new players to the role such as the relative higher DPS for effort, and the forgivable nature the role provides.

As stated I am fine with sustain nerfs, I would even go further and make it so no other role beside healers can rez or if they give another role a rez it is on a 10 min CD while in combat.

Issue is as someone that lost their favorite playstyle with old smn I am also mindful of how removing certain elements can really hurt ones personal enjoyment so I being mindful of that.

I do not trust SE to remove elements of play and replace it with something equal.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Just being able to eat vuln stacks and trivialize entire encounters goes beyond "forgiving".

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I mean God's forgive no? Bad joke.

Maybe other's are fine with the removal of stuff and have faith SE will add more or do more with the extra design space. If we are being honest has SE actually delivered on that claim for any job they removed something from?

savage is just designed for mitigation anyway, i don't think you've had to gcd heal anything since p8s. this particular raid tier just had like no body checks or mechanics that targeted healers repeatedly like the other ones did.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

My response is hey maybe don't take parts that have drove many new players to the role such as the relative higher DPS for effort, and the forgivable nature the role provides.

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Just being able to eat vuln stacks and trivialize entire encounters goes beyond "forgiving".

better question who cares?? Yea a group of players that are highly skilled found a way to meet the healing requirements without healers do you think the average static or pf would even be close to being able to pull this off. Its just people doing stuff for fun to test their limitations which is cool to watch but VAST majority of people and groups couldn't even accomplish this in their wildest dreams so idk why people care so much.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

better question who cares?? Yea a group of players that are highly skilled found a way to meet the healing requirements without healers do you think the average static or pf would even be close to being able to pull this off. Its just people doing stuff for fun to test their limitations which is cool to watch but VAST majority of people and groups couldn't even accomplish this in their wildest dreams so idk why people care so much.

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From what I understand the issue is removal of a role should not be faster or on par with a standard comp.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

better question who cares?? Yea a group of players that are highly skilled found a way to meet the healing requirements without healers do you think the average static or pf would even be close to being able to pull this off. Its just people doing stuff for fun to test their limitations which is cool to watch but VAST majority of people and groups couldn't even accomplish this in their wildest dreams so idk why people care so much.

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After watching the video no I don't really actually think it is that hard, people just don't realize how easy it actually is and don't bother trying to go off meta. I feel like I can list 100 reasons why but I will keep it kinda concise why I think this is true:

-They had minimal clemency casts and the casts they did do were during downtime anyways where it cost them absolutely 0 dps. The bar for healing is so low that it's possible to hardly even need direct healing from gcds. Without a healer.

-It was week 2, and they weren't fully geared. More room for error in the coming weeks will only make this easier to pull off.

-The only actual "cheese" or workaround they really had to figure out was the cover strat to bypass having to use tank LB3, but this isn't actually even hard to pull off anyways. I mean you're just throwing cover on a pre-assigned person as an alternative. Everything else in the fight is literally playing out the same as it normally would.

-They spreadsheeted mit. That's it. Tons of people do this, and expect it, on a regular basis in savage and ultimate anyways. All a healerless run does at best is somewhat amplify the strictness of mit usage. Spreadsheet it. Problem solved.

So please enlighten me on why this is so hard to actually pull off, because nothing stands out as extremely difficult. What is the crazy stunt they pulled that makes this seem egregiously harder than just... A regular clear of m4s in a coordinated group environment, with moderately stricter mit checks and having to press cover once instead of lb3 once?

I think if more people actually tried a healerless run in the first place it would be quite apparent how many of them are actually more than capable of doing it very easily. I guess my biggest question though is why you think it's okay for it to even be possible to clear fresh high-end content while undergeared, without a healer present. Should it even be possible to clear high-end content without an entire ROLE present? Like seriously? It's not alarming that a role is so useless that, even in the difficult content, they fail to justify a NECESSITY for it in any way?

As an old Hpal healer back in WoW. Low key the idea of being a main healer is a pld is awesome and I would 100% be down to try it.