The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TELOS

If "it wasn't his decision alone" is a good reason to justify it, then there should be no qualms with shutting down the Endless, as they were all on-board with the decision.

---

I was just adding aditional information there. Nothing more.
If you want my opinion on the endless then it would be:
I think they are alive. They are a form of "clones" of the originals but nonetheless themself. Otherwise the whole thing with Krile's and Erenvilles parents wouldn't make no sense for me.
Their death was sad and a tragedy but the game didn't give us any other options and I say the game, because there clearly was a way and it get's to fast handwaved with "they all want that anyway".
I never said I justify genocide nor will I allow anyone to put those words into my mouth or twist my posts for that argument. Are we clear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chizLemons

Although I do very much enjoy the idea of G'raha Tia being madly in love with the WoL, that's not the canon reason. It's clear that his admiration of the WoL as a hero played a huge part because of the amount of hope and trust he had on them, and he did personally want to save the WoL. So much so that he was willing to sacrifice himself in the end, AFTER saving the First - which no, he didn't want to save for any personal connection at first, but as explained in the MSQ, it's an important step to stopping the 8th Umbral Calamity: he had to stop the rejoining. But it wasn't a decision he made alone. They decided it was worth the risk, if not for them, then for another timeline, where the calamity wouldn't happen. It's in that story.

Also, the Crystal Tower isn't presented as an easy to use time machine that can go back and forth at will anytime he wants. He arrived in the First after the Flood of Light already happened, and I think it's been also mentioned that they didn't have control of when exactly would he arrive there, considering how time flows differently. He just needed to arrive before the death of the WoL. His plan was based on what he knew from the Source, because there was no way he had any knowledge about the First other than knowing about the rejoining.

---

I am not a fan of the G'Raha romance thing but I agree that the WoL is probably the most important person for them and that he was happy to take that risk and responsibility.
Yes, it was a huge amount of the survivors of the calamity. It is implied that the calamity was one of the most devastating and I wouldn't be surprised if even Elidibus had a hand in helping with stuff after that (that's his whole role).

Yeah they didn't have control. They used the towers power and Alexanders time stuff together with Omegas travel power and landet actually 100 years before they planed as far as I remember.
It was a huge gamble like you implied.

Edit:
I just saw you quoted me for the argument. Ah well, you are correct. Take my answer anyway. xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidmage

I was just adding aditional information there. Nothing more.
If you want my opinion on the endless then it would be:
I think they are alive. They are a form of "clones" of the originals but nonetheless themself. Otherwise the whole thing with Krile's and Erenvilles parents wouldn't make no sense for me.
Their death was sad and a tragedy but the game didn't give us any other options and I say the game, because there clearly was a way and it get's to fast handwaved with "they all want that anyway".
I never said I justify genocide nor will I allow anyone to put those words into my mouth. Are we clear?

Edit:
I just saw you quoted me for the argument. Ah well, you are correct. Take my answer anyway. xD

---

It's fine, sorry it was confusing :x should've answered all of it before quoting you for clarity! I'm in full agreement with you here! :)


Just my two cents on the Endless, I think i'ts yet another example of something the game handled badly. It's actually a really cool discussion to have, if we really think they're alive and how that should be treated...except the story didn't go that route and didn't want us to have that discussion. It decided for us that we just shouldn't think too much about it, they're unsustainable and should be shut down, just wanted us to go "shhh, think of the emotional scenes and move on. If you think TOO much it will break those scenes, so just...don't think."

And after the tribe quests in Ultima Thule, and what was presented to us in the area in general, it's also inconsistent with what the game understands consists of life. Is it the memory? Is it the soul? From my understanding, it was the consciousness. And the Endless are conscious. They're able to interact and form new memories.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chizLemons

It's fine, sorry it was confusing :x should've answered all of it before quoting you for clarity! I'm in full agreement with you here! :)


Just my two cents on the Endless, I think i'ts yet another example of something the game handled badly. It's actually a really cool discussion to have, if we really think they're alive and how that should be treated...except the story didn't go that route and didn't want us to have that discussion. It decided for us that we just shouldn't think too much about it, they're unsustainable and should be shut down, just wanted us to go "shhh, think of the emotional scenes and move on. If you think TOO much it will break those scenes, so just...don't think."

And after the tribe quests in Ultima Thule, and what was presented to us in the area in general, it's also inconsistent with what the game understands consists of life. Is it the memory? Is it the soul? From my understanding, it was the consciousness. And the Endless are conscious. They're able to interact and form new memories.

---

It's fine.

Fully agree.
The endless are an interesting phylosophical thing in the story and I would enjoyed that topic in the game and out of it.
It's too bad the game won't go into that whole thing deeper.
We could have had flashbacks to Emet's words, we could have had Endless struggling with the decision and Wuk Lamat having character growth there, or we could have had with the deactivations Sphene breaking down more and more. Instead even she was fine with it and didn't even comment on the whole thing.
Even the credits are a happy ever after.

What a bummer.
Such a missed chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidmage

I was just adding aditional information there. Nothing more.
If you want my opinion on the endless then it would be:
I think they are alive. They are a form of "clones" of the originals but nonetheless themself. Otherwise the whole thing with Krile's and Erenvilles parents wouldn't make no sense for me.
Their death was sad and a tragedy but the game didn't give us any other options and I say the game, because there clearly was a way and it get's to fast handwaved with "they all want that anyway".
I never said I justify genocide nor will I allow anyone to put those words into my mouth or twist my posts for that argument. Are we clear?

---

I was just talking about the original subject, the Endless and how XIV treats the deaths of societies historically, being discussed. I also explicitly was not calling it genocide, but omnicide. Nothing you've said here changes my response.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

Even if G'ahara original time lined got erased, it will still be stupid to call his action genocidal. He didn't come up with the plan, he was entrusted with it by the very people at risk of being erased. This is like accusing a doctor who performing a consented euthanasia on terminally ill patients "murderer". Yes, someone people truly believe that, doesn't make them right.

But people always use the most extreme and hyperbolic words to push their message, what else is news?

---

Erasing a timeline is quite literally omnicide. No one is calling it genocide. And your reasoning for justifying G'raha Tia's actions extremely easily applies to the Endless, which is my entire point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

Even if G'ahara original time lined got erased, it will still be stupid to call his action genocidal. He didn't come up with the plan, he was entrusted with it by the very people at risk of being erased. This is like accusing a doctor who performing a consented euthanasia on terminally ill patients "murderer". Yes, someone people truly believe that, doesn't make them right.

But people always use the most extreme and hyperbolic words to push their message, what else is news?

---

Do you truly believe he got the permission of everyone in that timeline to wipe them out of existence? That no one, on any world, in that entire universe wanted to keep existing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chizLemons

You didn't read the short story I linked, did you? I recommend going back to it.

---

I've obviously read the story because I referenced it when describing the state of the world he abandoned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

But no, the past is the past. You must forge ahead and soldier on...unless the WoL drops dead then time to dropkick time and space into the trash bin because some things are more important than a timeline full of people. Am I right?

---

Pretty much this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TELOS

And your reasoning for justifying G'raha Tia's actions extremely easily applies to the Endless, which is my entire point.

---

Then I don't get your point. Unlike all the previous incarnation of the same theme, the Endless to me is a completely fail attempt to incite an argument that doesn't exist. The Endless is nothing more than projection of a self-serving AI that just happen to have a large amount of data to emulate a person. Say ... since we can already have almost a nominal conversation with chatGPT, and if MS decide to parterup with the people running Vocaloid ... in a decade we'll probably have something like the Endless. At that point, if MS decide to shut down chatGPT server would you be screaming bloody murder? I know I won't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Do you truly believe he got the permission of everyone in that timeline to wipe them out of existence? That no one, on any world, in that entire universe wanted to keep existing?

---

And I'll bluntly tell you this kind of argument is ... , well I won't say it because it'll just be mean. But if you want to twisted into a form of universal consensus than:

- Not everyone want to die defending their country, so drafting in a defensive war is genocidal your own population.

- Not everyone want to obey or agree to the law, so the laws shouldn't exist.

- Not everyone want to die for a cause, so even a righteous revolution is a genocidal. Do you really think every single British colonists were all on board the American revolution, like every single one?

- Will you care about writing a story about the evil Washington who forced colonist to become independent from England?

The narrative you try to use here is like bringing a club and just blunt any story telling to death, no exception. The point of the narrative is G'ara was entrusted with the mission and carried the will of the people of his timeline. That's the motif necessary for the story to move forward. Now of course, there probably are 101 ways to poke hole at that story, I'm just saying yours is probably the worst way to do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

Then I don't get your point. Unlike all the previous incarnation of the same theme, the Endless to me is a completely fail attempt to incite an argument that doesn't exist. The Endless is nothing more than projection of a self-serving AI that just happen to have a large amount of data to emulate a person. Say ... since we can already have almost a nominal conversation with chatGPT, and if MS decide to parterup with the people running Vocaloid ... in a decade we'll probably have something like the Endless. At that point, if MS decide to shut down chatGPT server would you be screaming bloody murder? I know I won't.

---

The reason why I said what I said is because people are saying what happened to the Endless is sad because "they're people". I'm bringing up that the same thing applies to G'raha Tia's original timeline that he was willing to erase to say this is not an issue unique to Dawntrail. If you're not saying this, then obviously my point doesn't apply to you.

G'raha Tia was still happy to commit omnicide though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

And I'll bluntly tell you this kind of argument is ... , well I won't say it because it'll just be mean. But if you want to twisted into a form of universal consensus than:

- Not everyone want to die defending their country, so drafting in a defensive war is genocidal your own population.

- Not everyone want to obey or agree to the law, so the laws shouldn't exist.

- Not everyone want to die for a cause, so even a righteous revolution is a genocidal. Do you really think every single British colonists were all on board the American revolution, like every single one?

- Will you care about writing a story about the evil Washington who forced colonist to become independent from England?

The narrative you try to use here is like bringing a club and just blunt any story telling to death, no exception. The point of the narrative is G'ara was entrusted with the mission and carried the will of the people of his timeline. That's the motif necessary for the story to move forward. Now of course, there probably are 101 ways to poke hole at that story, I'm just saying yours is probably the worst way to do it.

---

You are the one claiming that having the consent of a handful of scientists means that wiping out their universe is no longer omnicide. You are the one claiming that consent of a tiny group of people given the vastness of the universe removes responsibility for wiping out millions if not billions of people who did not consent and would have never had a clue who the WoL is.

He did not carry out "the will of the people" he carried out the will of one group of people on one continent, on one shard, which ran the risk of wiping out an entire universe. And again, that's not my issue, my issue is how preachy we get about moving forward and not looking back, when one of our friends risked wiping out an entire universe to keep us around. But when it comes to any other people "that's against nature" "we are meant to live and die." Yeah, no one was making that speech when they were inventing timetravel so that we would have the "natural" death we were "meant" to have.