Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I would guess threads like this are why devs generally ignore the NA forums. There is very little useful criticism, it's all hyperbole "job is dead" or "job isn't complex enough for my big ego".

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You do know that eastern players have mostly a way bigger binding to their classes? There are even vids from Korea on some MMO´s, where they jump off the cliff, because their class got nerfed into the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKp2YJDt6_Q

And do you understand why maybe taking things to such an extreme level is unhealthy? That is absolutely not the sort of reaction ordinary people have to class changes.

These threads seem to have gone in every direction possible but its high time for some to take a deep breath and re-asses whether they're approaching things in a healthy way or not. I can only imagine the comment above was posted in defence of the "complex!" argument but it just reads as extremely negative and over-reactionary. It does nothing to sway people to that side and if anything else validates the fact that perhaps catering to them was not a good idea in the first place. Associating the "complex!" SMN fans with that was not a good idea.

In any case the mahjong livestream just confirmed that the only thing changing next week is potencies and with patch 6.1 not being till March if not April, it's time to let this go.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And do you understand why maybe taking things to such an extreme level is unhealthy? That is absolutely not the sort of reaction ordinary people have to class changes.

These threads seem to have gone in every direction possible but its high time for some to take a deep breath and re-asses whether they're approaching things in a healthy way or not. I can only imagine the comment above was posted in defence of the "complex!" argument but it just reads as extremely negative and over-reactionary. It does nothing to sway people to that side and if anything else validates the fact that perhaps catering to them was not a good idea in the first place.

In any case the mahjong livestream just confirmed that the only thing changing next week is potencies and with patch 6.1 not being till March if not April, it's time to let this go.

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God, please shut up. That post illustrated how tame current feedback is. What isn't healthy is what you do, trounce into every feedback thread and endlessly reply either the same recycled post, or tell everyone who is unhappy with the job to shut up, pack up, and give up. It isn't time to let anything go, SMN deserves to be so much more engaging, through skill ceiling and general job gameplay design, than it is now.

Sorry but if there's going to be a crowd who is going to be perpetually unhappy and complain about the rework all day and night then I have just as much a right to tell them how and why they are wrong. You want more abilities and buttons? Be patient and maybe if the complex lovers crowd could stop acting the way they do, people would be willing to take them seriously instead of how they're regarded nowadays. A reversion back to the past simply isn't happening, so we may as well make that pretty clear here and now. Unless that crowd manages to conjure up male Viera numbers of complaints, I would not entertain that idea.

When jobs I play get changes I don't like, I cannot say I've ever acted like some have in this and other threads. At best I rolled my eyes when the changes were disappointing and moved on to do other things. After my bad experience with SMN in Shadowbringers I didn't even bother saying anything. I just left without a word, the numbers must have spoken for themselves. Again, this isn't the righteous cause some mistakenly believe it to be. Old SMN's mechanics frustrated more people than there were fans of it. Thus a rework happened to great success and acclaim. Accept it or not, stay as SMN or not, the choice is in your hands. Remember it's adults you have to convince and not teenagers on the internet with some the takes I've seen thrown around.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Sorry but if there's going to be a crowd who is going to be perpetually unhappy and complain about the rework all day and night then I have just as much a right to tell them how and why they are wrong. You want more abilities and buttons? Be patient and maybe if the complex lovers crowd could stop acting the way they do, people would be willing to take them seriously instead of how they're regarded nowadays. A reversion back to the past simply isn't happening, so we may as well make that pretty clear here and now. Unless that crowd manages to conjure up male Viera numbers of complaints, I would not entertain that idea.

When jobs I play get changes I don't like, I cannot say I've ever acted like some have in this and other threads. At best I rolled my eyes when the changes were disappointing and moved on to do other things. Again, this isn't the righteous cause some mistakenly believe it to be. Old SMN's mechanics frustrated more people than there were fans of it. Thus a rework happened to great success and acclaim. Accept it or not, stay as SMN or not, the choice is in your hands. Remember its adults you have to convince and not teenagers on the internet with some the takes I've seen thrown around.

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Well for one you haven't done a good job of telling anyone why they're wrong, while they've done a good job of telling you why you're wrong. Second the majority haven't been asking for a revision, and you repeating that they have been ad nauseum doesn't make the statement true. They're merely asking for SMN to actually be a fully developed job, which it isn't right now. Third, just because you roll-over and take changes, everyone else should? No thanks these changes have almost universally been for the worse and deserve the criticism. And finally, please keep the speculation to yourself unless you have some kind of properly representative and unbiased survey of rework satisfaction, and former summoner dissatisfaction.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Well for one you haven't done a good job of telling anyone why they're wrong, while they've done a good job of telling you why you're wrong. Second the majority haven't been asking for a revision, and you repeating that they have been ad nauseum doesn't make the statement true. They're merely asking for SMN to actually be a fully developed job, which it isn't right now. Third, just because you roll-over and take changes, everyone else should? No thanks these changes have almost universally been for the worse and deserve the criticism. And finally, please keep the speculation to yourself unless you have some kind of properly representative and unbiased survey of rework satisfaction, and former summoner dissatisfaction.

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Again, you already have the options laid out in front of you if you want to believe that Summoner isn't a full job. In my opinion it is, but I would enjoy more summons whether as demis/gem summons/etc. I've been around since ARR and seen all the major ups and downs this game has had over the years.

Trust me when I say this has got to be one of the more minor controversies.

This crowd is nowhere near big enough or carries enough weight to act out the way they are doing now, much less so if they have any plan for their "feedback" to be taken seriously. Their behaviour has largely leaned away from maturity and given how much people are enjoying the job as is nowadays, I find myself struggling to agree with anything beyond the point that an additional summon would be nice to have.

We now know there will be no substantial changes to Summoner or any other job until 6.1. Depending on what they end up doing, it'll either click with people or not. If they somehow manage to add in Ramuh, Leviathan, or more aetherflow charges that would be really great and I don't see people taking that badly. If it stays the same, I also don't foresee an overwhelmingly negative reaction. But some of the ideas about bringing back ruin stacking of all things? The reintroduction of dots and Bane after specifically stating they wanted to get rid of the poison mage stigma that the job had become attached to? That would be the thing that actually causes a significant amount of people to get angry.

Fortunately it seems they want things to be more streamlined and flow nicely as opposed to embracing further clunkiness, so I'm not too worried. If the changes don't go my way, I have other jobs to fall back on. Unlike some I've actually tried out other classes during the last 8 years given the fact that it's one of the core features of this game so I'm not concerned if one is doesn't go my way. The way I've gone about things seems to bring a lot less strife and frustration than whatever this is.

Everyone is allowed their voice but while I enjoy aspects of the current SMN I wouldn't call it a great success.
A small minority wants old SMN back. Another small minority thinks current SMN is amazing
But most people want current SMN but with more depth to their gameplay.
At least that's the general consensus of the people I know.

And just because nothing is going to change anytime soon doesn't mean that people should stop voicing their opinion. As long as it stays respectful at least.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

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Like talking to a brick wall, a brick wall with logical fallacies spray-painted all over it.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Like talking to a brick wall, a brick wall with logical fallacies spray-painted all over it.

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You know their argument is garbage when the fall back is "Well just play something else!"

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Seriously though, any company developing public software should not be having the developers themselves look at the unfiltered criticism, that's just an all round horrible idea no one working in the field would recommend. If that's how SE is having feedback handled they are doing things very, very wrong. You need some kind of community managers mediating between them and end-users.

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Devs SHOULD have a look at the feedback by themselves. No matter how it´s written down unless it´s just a "fck you" or similar insults. There is no other way to get behind what ppl actually think and feel about their game, content and any changes. CM´s often don´t bring the message as its given to the devs, maybe they don´t even understand everything, because they´re not confident with gaming / the game or developing at all. Maybe they do even play the game by themselves and give feedback, they agree with, more meaning and pretty much ignore everything else.
A serious dev would check out what´s gonna happening across the board. I would take care way more about raw feedback about my "baby" i developed than all the hidings behind kind words or just hyped thumbs ups from fanboys.