SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

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12-17-2018, 07:50 AM
jon041065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auryan

A quick google search will show that XIV has over 10 million subscribers. You are also wrong that SE needs XIV to survive. Contrary to popular beliefs, SE is doing just fine, at least financially. It's a lot more debatable when it comes to image. Anyway...XIV is a cash cow for them, but they can live without XIV.

As for catering to what audience: I'd leave that to SE over any random commentator. Especially since, you know, they actually have the numbers and data of the player base and have more knowledge on what people want.

I feel bad for the people who fantasize of maining BLU, but they really had almost no chance of getting to that. Agree with their reasoning or not, they weren't going to add it as a typical battle job. I get the feeling that a lot of people would be happier with Yoshi-P vaguely mentioning that they're thinking about BLU at the end of every expansion as oppose to this version. Oh well...what can you do? I'm just waiting to see how this all works out.

You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

XIV did pull SE out of the red with the 2.0 launch. I don't know if it's overtaken XI as the most profitable FF game to date just yet but the game is a large source of their revenue that's probably only beaten by their mobile department.

I'm pretty sure I said that jobs shouldn't cater to any one player group. Doubled checked. Yep, I said jobs should be for everyone and then you take your favorite job into the content of your choice.

No chance of getting blu as a real combat job? Yoshi said they wouldn't be able to add rdm. They do a pretty good job overall with the game but they definitely miss with some things. Diadem, bow mage, 2.0 smn etc. Their minds can be changed and a lot on our side believes there can be great solo content WITHOUT limited jobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Because I am.

I actually want BLU as it has been presented.

I want it to be solo content.

I want something different from the "here's a standard cookie cutter job, nerfed to high hell so it will fit with the balance of the rest of the jobs" that we've had.

I actually want this limited job.

That's why it looks like I'm defending it.

Because I am.

But I also know that no matter WHAT they do, they will never get 100% satisfaction from the playerbase.

Christ, if even they gave us BOTH versions, people would still cry "It should be either/or, not both" because that's just how people are.

So you said that SE needs to make the class that fits FFXIV and not a small percentage of the playerbase but then say that's what you want. Ummm.....okay. I'm not denying there are people that want more solo content and I'm one of them but I seriously doubt more than half the playerbase is asking for a job to be designed with solo play as its focus.

Good thing a lot on our side are saying to leave the solo content alone but to give blu the ability to be used in the full game. You and me can then have what we both want. Unless you're one of the people that would still cry "It should be either/or, not both". I'm also tired of this "us vs them" and zero-sum view point.
12-17-2018, 08:13 AM
Auryan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon041065

You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

Then the word you're looking for is "active" subscribers. You were dead wrong when you said FFXIV has a max of a million subscribers. When they do in fact have a lot more than that. But semantics aside...

And like I said earlier, that's too bad but you didn't have a realistic chance of doing that endgame content with BLU anyway. Without this limited job system they weren't even going to bother adding BLU at all. Popular job or not.

Meh, they're minds will only be changed when BLU actually premieres and how the base reacts to it. If it's hit, they plan on supporting it and adding new jobs under this new family of jobs. However, if it's universally disliked than I think it will follow the usual pattern of content like Diadem and Eureka. It will be improved upon and if it's still negative, overhaul it. I just don't see this realistically happening though. But I am repeatedly wrong, so who knows?

And I like to point out that your constant 'us vs them' mentality is very off-putting. "Our side", "your side", etc. At the very least it comes off as combative when we're just discussing a job introduction. Nothing actually serious.
12-17-2018, 08:15 AM
SoleilAlphi

If Squeenix comes up in the future with a limited tank, limited healer and another limited dps, they could make a 4 men version of the Masked Carnivale, or other forms of group content for limited jobs, expanding the solo aspect (as right now, it is solo play because well... there's only BLU). I think the possibility would be pretty awesome and give that something new many are lamenting its lacking in the usual formula. But if everyone cries for no limited jobs DELETE NOW, this possibility for new content won't ever see the tiniest of light. And that is quite sad imo
12-17-2018, 08:23 AM
jon041065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auryan

Then the word you're looking for is "active" subscribers. You were dead wrong when you said FFXIV has a max of a million subscribers. When they do in fact have a lot more than that. But semantics aside...

And like I said earlier, that's too bad but you didn't have a realistic chance of doing that endgame content with BLU anyway. Without this limited job system they weren't even going to bother adding BLU at all. Popular job or not.

Meh, they're minds will only be changed when BLU actually premieres and how the base reacts to it. If it's hit, they plan on supporting it and adding new jobs under this new family of jobs. However, if it's universally disliked than I think it will follow the usual pattern of content like Diadem and Eureka. It will be improved upon and if it's still negative, overhaul it. I just don't see this realistically happening though. But I am repeatedly wrong, so who knows?

And I like to point out that your constant 'us vs them' mentality is very off-putting. "Our side", "your side", etc. At the very least it comes off as combative when we're just discussing a job introduction. Nothing actually serious.

Sure I could have said active but also I never said it maxes out at one million. Since SE doesn't release the active subs for each quarter, people have tried to use the Lodestone to get close and usually an average of around 800k to slightly over a million. Believe it was close to two million with the 4.0 launch. The constant "every month subscriber" count isn't crazy high and Yoshi P has said he's fine with people taking breaks and coming back for new patches/expacs.

Didn't have a realistic chance of doing endgame as blu? After Yoshi P saying that rdm would not work in the game and then them adding the job we started to think blu could definitely follow. Then there was an interview that came out a week or two after the 4.0 launch and Yoshi P was asked about future jobs and talked about how he wants to make a unique 14 job but also said that blu was highly requested. It was pretty reasonable for players to believe that blu would function in the full game if it were to be added.

Go check my other posts. I've been saying for weeks that I think that what both groups want is possible and I wish we could have a unified message to SE stating that. There's toxicity in both camps but I have not seen many from the "pro limited jobs" side say they are fine with SE working on a way for blu to work in the full game as long as they still got to have the Carnival and solo ability of blu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

If Squeenix comes up in the future with a limited tank, limited healer and another limited dps, they could make a 4 men version of the Masked Carnivale, or other forms of group content for limited jobs, expanding the solo aspect (as right now, it is solo play because well... there's only BLU). I think the possibility would be pretty awesome and give that something new many are lamenting its lacking in the usual formula. But if everyone cries for no limited jobs DELETE NOW, this possibility for new content won't ever see the tiniest of light. And that is quite sad imo

Change that to "content that you can do solo or low man" without the limited job concepts so that ALL combat jobs could participate and you would have a lot more people on board. There are people that are saying no to limited jobs period and there are others like myself saying no to THIS version. And it would be sad if there was no more solo content like the Carnival made after this experiment due to the backlash which is why many of us have said that we support the content but not at this cost. I want to see the two camps come together and say that we do want this type of content (or at least not against it) AND it not be at the cost of what the other side wants. Jobs that can work in the full game and there being solo side content like the Carnival if you choose to play that content.
12-17-2018, 08:30 AM
Auryan

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

If Squeenix comes up in the future with a limited tank, limited healer and another limited dps, they could make a 4 men version of the Masked Carnivale, or other forms of group content for limited jobs, expanding the solo aspect (as right now, it is solo play because well... there's only BLU). I think the possibility would be pretty awesome and give that something new many are lamenting its lacking in the usual formula. But if everyone cries for no limited jobs DELETE NOW, this possibility for new content won't ever see the tiniest of light. And that is quite sad imo

I don't actually think that is the point of limited job system. As I understand it (which is not factual or anything) is that jobs like BLU couldn't be pigeonholed as one of three roles. BLU could possibly be more than just a DPS, it could be a DPS/Support or DPS/Healer. This is mainly due to the very versatile abilities it gets from in-game monsters. It's not about adding really powerful jobs that do just one role. It's about the odd ducklings who are not as easily forced into one of three role in XIV.

To make BLU a DPS like say XIV's RDM, you would have it learn Might Guard and White Wind as its only non-DPS skills (maybe throw in Angel's Whiper for a raise since all jobs need a raise to be seen as good; smh) and every thing else just pure damage. And then make the remaining skills into a reasonable rotation, throw in a gimmick, viola! BLU is party ready. And I think... it's absolutely boring.

Limited job is as I see it SE's first attempt to broadening the very rigid trinity system. And I hope it does lead to that. And if BLU encourages them to improve the other jobs, than I'm happy to see it join the others (and only then). I'd hate it to be reduced to just a DPS. That weirdo is more complex than that.
12-17-2018, 08:38 AM
jon041065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auryan

To make BLU a DPS like say XIV's RDM, you would have it learn Might Guard and White Wind as its only non-DPS skills (maybe throw in Angel's Whiper for a raise since all jobs need a raise to be seen as good; smh) and every thing else just pure damage. And then make the remaining skills into a reasonable rotation, throw in a gimmick, viola! BLU is party ready. And I think... it's absolutely boring.

Limited job is as I see it SE's first attempt to broadening the very rigid trinity system. And I hope it does lead to that. And if BLU encourages them to improve the other jobs, than I'm happy to see it join the others (and only then). I'd hate it to be reduced to just a DPS. That weirdo is more complex than that.

You and others would think that would be boring while others and myself feel that what we are getting don't make up for the restrictions despite how potentially fun the content is.

A LOT of players would like to see the rigid trinity system pushed to the limits or just flat done away with. Some of us don't think limited jobs is the correct way of doing that.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...21#post4829321

That post and the second one I made in that thread was how I was hoping it would happen.
12-17-2018, 08:52 AM
Auryan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon041065

Didn't have a realistic chance of doing endgame as blu? After Yoshi P saying that rdm would not work in the game and then them adding the job we started to think blu could definitely follow. Then there was an interview that came out a week or two after the 4.0 launch and Yoshi P was asked about future jobs and talked about how he wants to make a unique 14 job but also said that blu was highly requested. It was pretty reasonable for players to believe that blu would function in the full game if it were to be added.

Go check my other posts. I've been saying for weeks that I think that what both groups want is possible and I wish we could have a unified message to SE stating that. There's toxicity in both camps but I have not seen many from the "pro limited jobs" side say they are fine with SE working on a way for blu to work in the full game as long as they still got to have the Carnival and solo ability of blu.

Change that to "content that you can do solo or low man" without the limited job concepts so that ALL combat jobs could participate and you would have a lot more people on board. There are people that are saying no to limited jobs period and there are others like myself saying no to THIS version. And it would be sad if there was no more solo content like the Carnival made after this experiment due to the backlash which is why many of us have said that we support the content but not at this cost. I want to see the two camps come together and say that we do want this type of content (or at least not against it) AND it not be at the cost of what the other side wants. Jobs that can work in the full game and there being solo side content like the Carnival if you choose to play that content.

Marketing talk, plain and simple. BLU is a highly requested job. Who would purposely say, "You know what? The job a lot of people want is just never coming in, ever! Too bad for you, suckers! Pay me now." Aside from mustache twirling cartoon villains, no one. He wanted to be hopeful, but vague. In other interviews he also stated that he just didn't see how he could fit BLU into XIV's mold. He was honest too, seeing as BLU wasn't added two expansions later despite being popular. Until now, in a way that is unlike the other jobs, just like he said.

And I'm sure you've heard this before, but a solo and party mode for BLU is essentially two entirely different jobs. It's not just about curating "party friendly" monster spells, when it's actually the fact that these spells are still overpowered, are completely independent of each other and that BLU has no rotation or a gimmick (besides learning skills) at all. They would have to craft an entire list of "balanced" spells, weave them into a rotation and keep it constantly balanced. On top of that, they have to keep the actual BLU updated with new content. That's a lot of work for just one job. And then the subject changes to: why bother at all?
12-17-2018, 08:55 AM
Shougun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

The last page idea is "if BLU doesn't have enough abilities he cannot join a certain content".
Oooook.

And what if :
"BLU has enough abilities but he does not use them"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them but his equip is garbage"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them and his equip is ok but without materia"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them and his equip is ok and with the best materia but he is a Viera and we have a miqo'te in party"

It works with every job already ingame, try it!

Sure there are always problems but the game attempts to soft help, like iLvl and level restrictions. Making sure the blue mage isn't coming without any skills is probably a good thing lol. (and imo should be done to other jobs too, finishing your relevant job quests).

This is more important because theoretically as a blue mage that didn't learn any skills you'd have /one/ ability, vs at least other jobs that have most all. I feel your example is akin to "why require ilvl, why require level, people are already bad!" which part of it is true but the result of complying with that statement would be a much worse duty finder experience...
12-17-2018, 08:59 AM
Auryan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon041065

You and others would think that would be boring while others and myself feel that what we are getting don't make up for the restrictions despite how potentially fun the content is.

A LOT of players would like to see the rigid trinity system pushed to the limits or just flat done away with. Some of us don't think limited jobs is the correct way of doing that.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...21#post4829321

That post and the second one I made in that thread was how I was hoping it would happen.

Finally something we agree on. The limited job system isn't the way to solve the battle system problem. I think so too. However, I think this new system is the first step on them doing away with it. Can't start overhauling an entire game without seeing how people react to changes, now can you? At the very least, even if this system doesn't lead to that, I can see myself having fun with it. All I generally ask for.
12-17-2018, 09:08 AM
jon041065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auryan

Marketing talk, plain and simple. BLU is a highly requested job. Who would purposely say, "You know what? The job a lot of people want is just never coming in, ever! Too bad for you, suckers! Pay me now." Aside from mustache twirling cartoon villains, no one. He wanted to be hopeful, but vague. In other interviews he also stated that he just didn't see how he could fit BLU into XIV's mold. He was honest too, seeing as BLU wasn't added two expansions later despite being popular. Until now, in a way that is unlike the other jobs, just like he said.

And I'm sure you've heard this before, but a solo and party mode for BLU is essentially two entirely different jobs. It's not just about curating "party friendly" monster spells, when it's actually the fact that these spells are still overpowered, are completely independent of each other and that BLU has no rotation or a gimmick (besides learning skills) at all. They would have to craft an entire list of "balanced" spells, weave them into a rotation and keep it constantly balanced. On top of that, they have to keep the actual BLU updated with new content. That's a lot of work for just one job. And then the subject changes to: why bother at all?

He said the same with rdm. That he wasn't sure if they could make the "jack of all trades" traditional FF job fit within the trinity and they eventually did it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon041065

Also, I've never said to just leave blu as it is and lift the restrictions. That's why I've been saying it will take probably to 6.0 for SE to make blu work in the full game. They already have most of Shadowbringers planned out (inlcuding the blu content) so IF they did listen to the backlash, adding what we are asking for would most likely have to be part of the following expansion.

If they are adding more jobs with 6.0, then why can't the resources and time spent making one of those new jobs be put towards making blu available for the full game? Not everyone would want that just as not everyone would want Geomancer, or Beast Master, or Puppet Master. All we can do is request what future jobs we would like to see. A lot of us would like to see Blue Mage as a DoW/M even if there is "Blue Mage the limited job". Yoshi P said he kept being asked to add blue mage but the limited job version doesn't satisfy a lot of us that were asking for the job. He will still be getting requests for the job as a version that can be a main job.

Our side would agree that it is a lot of work to keep updating the Carnival constantly. Some are against the content entirely for that reason while myself and others want to see repurposed to be something with freelancer/onion knight/mimic. Like SE still do what they have announced but for 6.0 they change the limited job's name to Freelancer. Then add in some traits and abilities from all jobs to have a bigger scope of build making than just "enemy abilities". It could have a "Mimicry" ability to just straight up play as one of the other jobs. Or just call the limited job Mimic. It would still take a lot of time and resources but rather it be towards something that can be built up instead of separate content for every potential limited job. That just results in content across the board becoming more shallow as resources become more and more spread thin.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ue-Limited-Job

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