Black Mage

making ranged an advantage is nice, but than you end up being out range of some aoe heals (or other buffs)

the blm buff will probably have some connection with enochian, like after a foul without dropping enochian (or without using transpose), eno will buff for 15% or something

+ agree with the proc tweaks mentioned by Kabooa

I was well aware that my claim would've been controversial but honestly you need to keep up with for a while because I'm getting to something

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Originally Posted by Fannah

, one is more dps/burst oriented, the other one is more support oriented. .

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Now this is what I was getting at, of the 2 jobs in the ranged role one is more support based the other is more dps based and that is shown in their toolkit, what they might have in their role action pool is completely irrilevant to the point because as I said what makes you support of dps based is your personal toolkit the role toolkit has been made to make so that some roles have a preset of actions that they NEED.

Now I'm not bashing MCH and BRD I'm using them as an example, in my opinion one can still be a selfish dps if he has a reason to apply a dmg buff as part of their rotation and whatnot, frankly we have said many times that the problem is that selfish dps doesn't work, well I don't think that applying a debuff from which you have a gain instantly makes you a support.

I'm making a distinction between active and passive support because in my opinion even selfish could bring a passive support to the group and that's why I said that MCH could be considered selfish compared to BRD, because what they bring to the party is something that belongs to their very core as a job (not really dismantle but ALL jobs have a way to reduce incoming dmg in some way).
I understant that this is a wild ride but just give it a though

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

snip

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Really late response but I'm just going to reiterate yet again that I do not see "raw damage" ever outweighing support+damage on ANY class in this game. If the raw damage output was ridiculously high (see also: broken) then maybe, but I would much rather see utility from all classes and be accused of being "boring" than see my class locked out because it's undesirable to bring from a party damage perspective.


Again, even SAM brings something as menial as slashing down. BLM brings absolutely nothing. It's the very definition of a liability; feed your BLM and pray he's amazing/doesn't die.

It's not wild rude, it's just a different way to see it. But (I'll just try to not be offensive) you really actually believe I'm selfish to give 10euros to a homeless because my neighbour gave 15euros to him. Your point of view (or vocabulary) is lacking of subtility. And it's almost like you're using mathematics in a wrong way. "One person A gives X, the other person B gives X + Y, so it's the same than A gives nothing and B gives Y". That's what I kind of hear from what you wrote ("action roles don't matter" to put it shortly).

Before people talk about action roles, before it was in the game, giving back TP and MP was part of their kit, so they have been designed for it, unlike those jobs who gained new abilities for real after the existence of Action Roles (I would understand you don't take in count new abilities coming from Action Roles which never been part of them before).
Bard got Foe's Requiem working the same way than Hypercharge and upgrades Bard's dmg too, you compare with Battle voice which is not the direct equivalent of Hypercharge and just give more bonuses.
No way I consider Requiem Foe's as a selfish skill (but maybe you do).

Using the word selfish is too extreme in this situation. None of them are selfish, and considering them as selfish when we are talking about the number 1 support and number 2 support compared to all the others is kinda an inappropriate way to speak about them.

"but just give it a though " is the only rude thing you wrote, btw. Don't worry, I read everything and think about the way you think it. It doesn't make me have to agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Again, even SAM brings something as menial as slashing down. BLM brings absolutely nothing. It's the very definition of a liability; feed your BLM and pray he's amazing/doesn't die.

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There are rare times when I do get to have all the single target balances, dragon eyes, what have you and just blow everything up.

I love it.

and Sam can hog most buffs too where they can "burst" (dragon sight, mnk brotherhood, can use rdm embolden), ..blm has far less "buffs" and cant really burst either

that aside, instead of proc tweaks for mobility, chorter CD on aether and LL would be nice too

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Originally Posted by Fannah

It's not wild rude, it's just a different way to see it. But (I'll just try to not be offensive) you really actually believe I'm selfish to give 10euros to a homeless because my neighbour gave 15euros to him. Your point of view (or vocabulary) is lacking of subtility. And it's almost like you're using mathematics in a wrong way. "One person A gives X, the other person B gives X + Y, so it's the same than A gives nothing and B gives Y". That's what I kind of hear from what you wrote ("action roles don't matter" to put it shortly).

Before people talk about action roles, before it was in the game, giving back TP and MP was part of their kit, so they have been designed for it, unlike those jobs who gained new abilities for real after the existence of Action Roles (I would understand you don't take in count new abilities coming from Action Roles which never been part of them before).
Bard got Foe's Requiem working the same way than Hypercharge and upgrades Bard's dmg too, you compare with Battle voice which is not the direct equivalent of Hypercharge and just give more bonuses.
No way I consider Requiem Foe's as a selfish skill (but maybe you do).

Using the word selfish is too extreme in this situation. None of them are selfish, and considering them as selfish when we are talking about the number 1 support and number 2 support compared to all the others is kinda an inappropriate way to speak about them.

"but just give it a though " is the only rude thing you wrote, btw. Don't worry, I read everything and think about the way you think it. It doesn't make me have to agree with you.

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The word selfish might be too much but I'm not accusing anyone I'm just showing that BLM can bring a dps buff to the raid and still be dps centric as a role that is the point.
Especially since SAM has the slash down that, while may not be the most optimal way of providing it, it's still there, has been used in a composition and it has it's own opener in the compendium

We need offensive utility there is no other way around that, selfish don't work and never will in this expansion (unless you make it completely broken) and SAM is not an example of success because they are more than likely going to become us in 4.2 (a.k.a the worst dps job), SMN right now has the biggest personal damage in the game and some offensive utility and it is barely competing with the double ranged meta, imagine how much personal damage something like BLM that has 0 offensive utility and no burst phase to abuse stuff like Trick Attack would have to deal to compete with a class like MCH which has one of the strongest burst phases in the game thanks to WF and a really powerful offensive utility in the form of Hypercharge (also remember that MCH is the weakest link on the meta super comp).

Maybe in 5.0 by replacing stuff like Trick Atack, Hypercharge, AoE Balance, etc for single target buffs like Dragon Sight, those "selfish" carry dps like BLM and SAM could work but on StormBlood you either give them the SMN treatment (high damage and some albeit weaker utility when compared with the others) or condemn them to be bad for the entire expansion.

I'm not saying that SAM is a success, I'm stating that they are considered a selfish job and still have a form of utility for the group even if it is a weak one.
Which makes them better than BLM because they have nothing for the group but their dmg.

I said that MCH can be considered selfish given how their toolkit is extremely dps centric and how hypercharge has a huge impact on them considering the interaction with WF.
Which means that their support abilities are passives bcause they come off something they would do normally and I argue that the same should be applied to SAM and BLM.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

We need offensive utility there is no other way around that, selfish don't work and never will in this expansion (unless you make it completely broken) and SAM is not an example of success because they are more than likely going to become us in 4.2 (a.k.a the worst dps job), SMN right now has the biggest personal damage in the game and some offensive utility and it is barely competing with the double ranged meta, imagine how much personal damage something like BLM that has 0 offensive utility and no burst phase to abuse stuff like Trick Attack would have to deal to compete with a class like MCH which has one of the strongest burst phases in the game thanks to WF and a really powerful offensive utility in the form of Hypercharge (also remember that MCH is the weakest link on the meta super comp).

Maybe in 5.0 by replacing stuff like Trick Atack, Hypercharge, AoE Balance, etc for single target buffs like Dragon Sight, those "selfish" carry dps like BLM and SAM could work but on StormBlood you either give them the SMN treatment (high damage and some albeit weaker utility when compared with the others) or condemn them to be bad for the entire expansion.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Really late response but I'm just going to reiterate yet again that I do not see "raw damage" ever outweighing support+damage on ANY class in this game. If the raw damage output was ridiculously high (see also: broken) then maybe, but I would much rather see utility from all classes and be accused of being "boring" than see my class locked out because it's undesirable to bring from a party damage perspective.

Again, even SAM brings something as menial as slashing down. BLM brings absolutely nothing. It's the very definition of a liability; feed your BLM and pray he's amazing/doesn't die.

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To use extreme numbers, if you gave BLM 10k raw dps, you would. If you gave more single target sustained dps buffs (rather than raidwide short high potency buffs), you would. There's plenty of ways it can be done. If BLM has enough personal dps it would be considered - right now it isn't even close to providing that. Checkout Blackcat's Raid DPS app if you want more information.

As an FYI, SMN doesn't always have the biggest single target personal damage. Its dependent on the fight/kill time and group composition. Also its DPS is currently overestimated due to a bug with Dot Damage in the statistics site (as well as Ruin 4 exploiters).

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Also its DPS is currently overestimated due to a bug with Dot Damage in the statistics site (as well as Ruin 4 exploiters).

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This is worriying makes making an extimation all the more difficult

I just hope the so called potency "buffs" upcoming does not bring along with it changes to smn down the road again and make the changes mute.
Perhaps they should ask the opinion of the top tier black mages rather then just implement whatever changes, lol
True smn is not always on top but the gap sure is big enough between it and blm, it is very disturbing for all of us especially those who have mained blm forever

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

To use extreme numbers, if you gave BLM 10k raw dps, you would. If you gave more single target sustained dps buffs (rather than raidwide short high potency buffs), you would. There's plenty of ways it can be done. If BLM has enough personal dps it would be considered - right now it isn't even close to providing that. Checkout Blackcat's Raid DPS app if you want more information.

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If you make a class have enough dps to surpass sinergy of buffs it'll be hilariously broken for 95% of the playerbase, if it happens in 4.2 the inevitable nerf or huge buffs to everything else will probably return us to the current status...

Right now a MCH (for example) outdpses a BLM and even a SAM if you consider total damage contribution (personal damage + raid damage) by quite a bit, however it only happens because the healers will be dpsing hard during Hypercharge, the Warrior will be using Berserk + Inner Release and everyone else will be using all their 1 min or 2 min buffs during that time, if you happen to have a Warrior who is always on defiance, healers who don't dps or dpsers who miss their burst windows, the contribution of hypercharge ( or trick atack os anything else, i'm using MCH as an example because I actually play the class) drops hard, making a selfish class that can outdps all this sinergy will be super broken in lower skill groups.

That's the catch, though, they can't make it SOOO much higher that it breaks the class for 4-man and casual content/groups. They can't justify BLM having DOUBLE the damage output potential of the next highest dealer; it would break the already very fragile balance of their game (note just how much they boast "any standard comp of 2/2/4 can clear just about anything).


I'm keeping up in the discord about the Thunder maths, but that still doesn't reassure me. I would much rather see this ridiculous logic of "raw damage no utility" just be wiped clean from the entire game. It's a 4.0 precedent anyway; BLM had access to Apoc/Eye for an Eye/Virus/Lethargy(which actually was pretty useful since it didn't need to be hardcast)/Manaward AND Manawall (for helping soak busters solo tank) beforehand, so it's not like the job has "always been" this way. Every class deserves some utility/buff for the other players in the party, even if it's just a 180s recast party wide stat buff like Battle Litany. (this is why I suggest "Aetherial Radiance")

From the other thread:

To give an example on why I think Hypercharge could be used as a model.

Imagine a Manadrive ability for BLM: increases the potency of ALL your spells by 20 for 20 secs(?) additional effect: Magical dmg done by you increases target chance to be direct hit by 4% last 5 secs CD 120 secs (ofc all numbers are PH)

It would grant us a Burst and a source of raid dps (plus a unique effect)

I don't think that alone would let us become support, our toolkit would still be too much dps centric but it would allow us to bring something

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

If you make a class have enough dps to surpass sinergy of buffs it'll be hilariously broken for 95% of the playerbase, if it happens in 4.2 the inevitable nerf or huge buffs to everything else will probably return us to the current status...

Right now a MCH (for example) outdpses a BLM and even a SAM if you consider total damage contribution (personal damage + raid damage) by quite a bit, however it only happens because the healers will be dpsing hard during Hypercharge, the Warrior will be using Berserk + Inner Release and everyone else will be using all their 1 min or 2 min buffs during that time, if you happen to have a Warrior who is always on defiance, healers who don't dps or dpsers who miss their burst windows, the contribution of hypercharge ( or trick atack os anything else, i'm using MCH as an example because I actually play the class) drops hard, making a selfish class that can outdps all this sinergy will be super broken in lower skill groups.

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95% of the playerbase can't play classes that well anyway, so I doubt it would affect them!

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

95% of the playerbase can't play classes that well anyway, so I doubt it would affect them!

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It's the exactly opposite, it would make a good BLM super broken on lower skill groups and it'll be only balanced on the top 5% (or less) of the player base.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

It's the exactly opposite, it would make a good BLM super broken on lower skill groups and it'll be only balanced on the top 5% (or less) of the player base.

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Lower skilled players won't be a good BLM. If you mean a good BLM grouping with lower skilled players - well, you can make that argument about any class in the current state. You should absolutely not balance the skill ceiling of a class based on lower skilled players.

If a player is good enough to be a very skilled player in a bad group with BLM, then there is absolutely no problem because he's put in the effort and is rewarded for his skill.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Lower skilled players won't be a good BLM. If you mean a good BLM grouping with lower skilled players - well, you can make that argument about any class in the current state. You should absolutely not balance the skill ceiling of a class based on lower skilled players.

If a player is good enough to be a very skilled player in a bad group with BLM, then there is absolutely no problem because he's put in the effort and is rewarded for his skill.

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That depends on if the 10k is just a baseline increase (potency) or skill based (ability interactions).

As it stands, it's not difficult to hit 80% of a job's output, meaning the 10k example would have most players doing 8k DPS.

Maybe we should find a common place on what lower skill and high skill is, sometimes I get the feelings that personal interpretations gets in the way

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Maybe we should find a common place on what lower skill and high skill is, sometimes I get the feelings that personal interpretations gets in the way

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Upkeeps Enochian, doesn't overwrite foul, maintains T3 DoT, goes from 100-0 in Fire and 0-100 in ice. Basic mastery of the job's main gameplay mechanics.

Leylines, Convert, Sharp and Triple would be where you start going from basic to intermediate.

Slide casting, proc management, and specific holding / use of Swift/Triple/AM/BTL to minimize manual movement would be moving into advanced.

In Black Mage's current set up, you hit about 75-85% of your potential max on a dummy test with just the basics, move up to 85-100% with the intermediate, and whether or not you can maintain that is where the advanced section comes into play regarding actual boss encounters.

Seems about fair enough

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That depends on if the 10k is just a baseline increase (potency) or skill based (ability interactions).

As it stands, it's not difficult to hit 80% of a job's output, meaning the 10k example would have most players doing 8k DPS.

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Well I obviously wasn't being serious about the 10k DPS example, but every class has a discrepancy between perfect play and 80% of a jobs input. From a personal standpoint, i'd welcome extra difficulty with BLM (be it APM based difficulty or adaptation based difficulty), but if that happened I feel that it would need to happen across the board to all classes. But that absolutely is not the issue here - that's the skill floor of the class - not the ceiling which is the issue here.

posting here again, the 1st post adresses the blm issues very well (different solutions been posted in multiple posts and threads over the last weeks /months)

really hope SE's solution will make all blm happy (enough)

I'm glad that the devs have finally taken notice, though I wish they had done so on their own instead of us having to scream at them to do something about BLM.

All jobs have screamed at them at one point, which is why we have most problems in the game tbh

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Originally Posted by Remedi

All jobs have screamed at them at one point, which is why we have most problems in the game tbh

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This is only half true. By 3.3 MCH and BRD were both completly overpowered because of this, yes. Same goes for Astrologian's actually broken Balance during Creator. Most of everything else that came up since Stormblood dropped didn't cause major issues. They are slowly trying to balance it going as far as not simply giving potency buffs like they used to do because those caused major issues before and they don't want to repeat it. Most ARR balancement changes also didn't create much more issues, and back then they actually cared on nerfing classes sometimes.

after SB however they started doing what they were doing with HW answering too much on playerbase wrong feedback or misinterpreting them, so yes they kinda continued with that.
However I'm not stating that the balance is overall trash like in other games, but I think that they should be more careful on balancing especially on expansion release where frankly ppl should chill out for a while and experiment with the changes before saying anything.

Also maybe I should be clear that I'm not saying that all feedback from community are bad

in the past blm could "eat one aoe" and maintain its dps in emergency situations ..., today thats barely possible anymore (mechanics either force you to move even more ... or taking an aoe kills on the spot or gives a fatal debuff for the next mechanics)

blm could use such a "hollowed ground" buff again, like blm had in 2.x

(but a shorter aethermanipulation CD + a slight longer range,.. besides storing 2 of each proc could help in a more gameplay way)

In the past Blm also had 2 defensive buffs, Manaward and Manawall, one for physical the other for magical dmg. I was very sad, they removed that, I really liked having to plan and know which one to use.
Also were good days when you could negate an entire attack with it.

I remember on Bahamut Turn 13 when targeted by the 3 puddles, you could take zero damage on the first 2 hits, or even survive a boss tank burster, and by the edge of your seat kill the boss while all others are dead. That happened once, and my heart was racing and the emotions afterwards was unreal :D
Not been on forums or game much for the last weeks, but hoping tomorrows LL will reveal the changes for BLM.
And again these changes will make or break it for me to either continue playing or stand down from raiding/game. As I do not want to continue with the class like it is now for 4.2 and beyond.

Let us hope it will not be a letdown

As I said in harold's threads expecting anything more than raw potency buff is asking to be disappointed the only thing that is unclear is what they mean with usability in raid but frankly they are not gonna change BLM that much

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Originally Posted by Remedi

As I said in harold's threads expecting anything more than raw potency buff is asking to be disappointed the only thing that is unclear is what they mean with usability in raid but frankly they are not gonna change BLM that much

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Which is sad because SMN did receive an extensive rework altough it wasn't necessary.

Idd but they said they were going to do that while they already said the changes will mostly be dps which is probably going to be potency buffs

・黒魔道士→蘇生が入ったりはしない、ファイジャの威力強化、サンダー系とファイア系プロック時間が6秒ほど長くなる、エーテリアルステップのリキャが10秒に変更、トランスのリキャが8秒に変更

BLM - > No Raise, Fire IV potency buff, Thunder and Fire based procs will have an additional 6 sec increase, Aetherial Manipulation's recast will change to 10 seconds, Transpose cooldown will change to 8 seconds

Thank god no raise.

atleast its not insta cast fire/ice 1

and thank god AetherM and Proc tweaks for slight mobility help, like in prog

glad besides ofc the most important : potency (F4) buff

the 4.2 changes from SE didn't disappoint (unless the next fights contain a lot more rng / heavy movement xD...)

But they might have just shifted the meta to triple melee anyway