What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

Which was heavily criticized and ruined any of the Sith storytelling for that trilogy.

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I made that joke with my friends that Zodiark got Snok'd. Good laugh.

Now, I dont personally think this was a bad move. I just think it happened abit to soon. I like that DAMDaniel had a big scheme behind freeing Zodiark before he was fully reassembled and by doing so brought back the final days.
Its just.. .i do think it happened to quickly. Plus they didnt use The Final Days as much as they could have.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think the problem is that typically, people chalking off a thread as bait or a troll is done whenever someone is critiquing the game. Its done deliberately in a way to try and stifle discussion which is just extremely rude tbh. Lets not act like this is some shocking thing, its happened plenty of times around these parts, specially when it comes to lore.

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If you think or feel discussion is being stifled by a silly little meme/joke/troll, it makes me wonder if you even care about the discussion, since your attention is on that picture.

The default action should be to ignore it. Maybe laugh if you humor in it...but it shouldnt be to get all defensive and derail the conversation to combat an insignificant shitpost

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I think what ticks most people off about the lore is the bad faith stuff that's talked about in the lore thread. There's not so much lore discussion going on as "I don't like this part of the game, it's bad writing, I don't know what the devs were thinking or how anyone can like this story! This character is undoubtedly the most evil villain in any FF games ever!" If someone doesn't enjoy the story, that's fine, but acting like the story is objectively bad (when story enjoyment is a subjective thing), and that people who do like it or certain characters are somehow dumb for doing so, is going to get people riled.

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People who defend the story do this as well. Let's not pretend it's one-sided. ;) I personally don't care overly much if some people get riled. It is simply the nature of such things. But equally I'm not too interested in being lectured by them, either. The ignore function exists for a reason, where I feel there's really no productive use being made of my time by engaging the person. The story was acknowledged to be even more morally grey than SHB by Yoshi P in the lead up to EW, and there are lots of aspects of it that are also "grey" in the sense of ambiguities or uncertainties or what-ifs cropping up with some parts of the lore. This is the sort of thing that will spawn disagreement.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

People who defend the story do this as well. Let's not pretend it's one-sided. ;) I personally don't care overly much if some people get riled. It is simply the nature of such things. But equally I'm not too interested in being lectured by them, either. The ignore function exists for a reason, where I feel there's really no productive use being made of my time by engaging the person. The story was acknowledged to be even more morally grey than SHB by Yoshi P in the lead up to EW, and there are lots of aspects of it that are also "grey" in the sense of ambiguities or uncertainties or what-ifs cropping up with some parts of the lore. This is the sort of thing that will spawn disagreement.

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No such thing a perfect story. A story that is good to one person is trash to another.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

If you think or feel discussion is being stifled by a silly little meme/joke/troll, it makes me wonder if you even care about the discussion, since your attention is on that picture.

The default action should be to ignore it. Maybe laugh if you humor in it...but it shouldnt be to get all defensive and derail the conversation to combat an insignificant shitpost

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When we already have enough shitposting to worry about with lore discussion, it gets old extremely quickly. Especially because it can always be chalked off as “a little joke” when in reality it might not have even been that. Typically people use “it was just a joke” as a defensive mechanism when they’re called out on something. There are people that truly believe some genuine posts are trolls because they can’t fathom there being criticism for the game. I’m not sure how you gather that someone not wanting an off topic meme or “joke” in a discussion thread equates to not caring about the discussion. There’s other topics for you to joke around in, a discussion thread typically isn’t one of them. This is one of the problems that’s been rampant on this forum lately. It’s strange that it’s typically only done in criticism threads though is my point. Which is why i brought up the stifling discussion. It seems like people only ever post it in hopes of just writing off any form of criticism as trolling. That’s completely counterproductive for criticism.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean, i disagree, i think it should be measured that way because why have a character who has no plot relevance? All for a "maybe in the future"? Like how maybe in the future theyll finally bring back her life draining plot?If a character isnt doing anything for the plot, then at that point theyre stale and need to be replaced. Its just another part of the whole plot armor bias situation. She did nothing for the plot this expansion, why have her continue to stick around when that position can be given to another character that could actually have some worth and relevance.They did it for lyse. She did what she had to do and they wrote her out when she wasnt contributing much. The same should go for yshtola. She contributed very little.

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Oh didn't see this little knack. But respectfully, I disagree here. A character with no or little plot relevance is no meaningful death at all. Except death for deaths own sake. Deaths need to be meaningful. Just take a comparison between the deaths of Haurchefant, Papalymo and Moenbryda. They all died giving their lives for something they believed in. Or to stop or prevent something. Now take the comparison with the Satrap of Radz-at-han. Dude got eaten alive and practically nobody bats an eyelid barring the simple fact of we're a god-killing, ascian-slaying machine so we should have done more. Killing characters off for the sake of killing them off is very meaningless death and just bad writing. - But I guess this would be a matter of opinionated debate.

I just feel like the argument being made could apply to practically any given scion, really. On the other side of the coin, I could just see a conversation such as this in an alternative universe wherein someone dies and then people complain that the death wasn't impactful or meaningful enough.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Oh didn't see this little knack. But respectfully, I disagree here. A character with no or little plot relevance is no meaningful death at all. Except death for deaths own sake. Deaths need to be meaningful. Just take a comparison between the deaths of Haurchefant, Papalymo and Moenbryda. They all died giving their lives for something they believed in. Or to stop or prevent something. Now take the comparison with the Satrap of Radz-at-han. Dude got eaten alive and practically nobody bats an eyelid barring the simple fact of we're a god-killing, ascian-slaying machine so we should have done more. Killing characters off for the sake of killing them off is very meaningless death and just bad writing. - But I guess this would be a matter of opinionated debate.

I just feel like the argument being made could apply to practically any given scion, really.

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The difference between a Scion dying and a "literally who" character dying is that the impact upon the player and story is much higher for the prior -- and usually drives more of the narrative/shifts narrative. Thats why things like the previous three have been impactful as the story was impacted upon their sacrifices (which is kind of the whole point of that dungeon in EW).

If you have an entire build up by Yoshi-P saying "anyone could die" with a story focused around the apocalypse -- with the only tear jerking is showing either brand new characters or faceless NPCs dying, then no one gives a shit.

Pretty much enjoyed the story from start to finish. Going into Endwalker I was sure there is no way they stick the landing. But to be perfectly honest I think they did a good job.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

The difference between a Scion dying and a "literally who" character dying is that the impact upon the player and story is much higher for the prior -- and usually drives more of the narrative/shifts narrative. Thats why things like the previous three have been impactful as the story was impacted upon their sacrifices (which is kind of the whole point of that dungeon in EW).

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Sure I'll give that point, but the circumstances surrounding each of the appointed deaths weren't exactly just "Oh hey, death.". Like I said (and I'll expand), if Y'shtola had taken the place of the Satrap, then this discussion would not be about the absence of the death surrounding a Scion, but simply how anticlimactic said death was. Killing off Y'shtola because she presented little narrative relevance current would be meaningless. By contrast, Y'shtola dying trying to, or actually bringing about travel between reflections would be meaningful. A character death should be meaningful both because of what they believed, the circumstance surrounding their death, and not simply just because entirely of who that character is.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Sure I'll give that point, but the circumstances surrounding each of the appointed deaths weren't exactly just "Oh hey, death.". Like I said (and I'll expand), if Y'shtola had taken the place of the Satrap, then this discussion would not be about the absence of the death surrounding a Scion, but simply how anticlimactic said death was.

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No one is saying they should kill them off for lulz -- we are saying that there are enough Scions with completed story arcs where an impactful death to SELL the story of the expansion is a useful tool (see Papalymo, Ysayle,). You build the story to this moment and pay it off. You have an entire narrative built around "anyone could transform and die" with no one of note doing either.