And yet this community consistantly proves you wrong in that assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by JiSH
"Muh SMN Egis"
"Muh RDM being a dps instead of being distilled mediocrity with refresh"
"Muh DRK dps with a scyyyyyyythe! (Linkin Park blaring in the background)"
"Muh BRD/Ranger/WAR/SCH we're not a guranteed slot anymore so muh class fantaseeee"
I could go on but you get the idea. The bottom line is, they wanted to preserve BLUs identity and gameplay loop and they believe it couldn't be done within the framework of this games class balance. And, to be quite frank, none of the suggestions or class reconstruction threads I have seen have proven to me otherwise. Those other classes could be modified to fit the class paradigm, BLU couldn't without ripping the guts out of what made the class unique.
Blue mage is a waste of potential, change my mind.
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10-24-2020, 08:41 PMRazard
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10-24-2020, 11:53 PMMaraD_None of those are part of the classic FF job fantasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razard
The closest is SMNs egis, since we know egis are just the replacement to summons. There was nothing wrong with making more egis. It didnt hurt SMNs playstyle in any way, and yet SE didnt do it.
As for RDMs "Jack of all trade" style, that was possible, as we currently have something in the game doing just that, which is ACN. If RDM had took the system of a caster/healer in one job, who swaps based on job crystal, the way that SMN/SCH do, it would have been just fine. But instead they went the route they did. In the end, the current RDM is "good enough". Its also extremely popular, unlike BLU. (Just the number of people currently playing RDM shows this)
DRK wasnt solely a scythe user, nor was it solely a DPS. The ONLY thing that they messed up on, was that they gave the HP sacrifice ability to GNB. (Superbolied)
(The blood gauge would have been a good replacement to taking HP for dmg, had they handled it slightly differently, but meh, its the closest they got atm)
I know you're being sarcastic, but the last part is way past sarcastic, its too nonsensical to even be brought up. -
10-25-2020, 01:14 AMAuryanYou're inadvertently proving his point. What happened to SMN/SCH was a mistake they've openly admitted for years now. RDM was never going to get that treatment because it was a pain to balance both jobs and created more work than necessary. To get the fantasy of a "Jack of All Trades", you were only going to get, what you call, "good enough." Or something else (BLU).Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
And its a false comparison to compare RDM to BLU. RDM is a standard job, whereas BLU is labeled as side content. Why not compare the popularity between PLD and FSH next? -
10-25-2020, 01:30 AMRazardAnd yet, I have seen examples of every one of the examples i have given on this very forum. Gives me the feeling you couldn't see the sarcasm from the message.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
The point is, even with the compromises being made for the sake of balance within the gameplay systems of ffxiv, you will always have people complaining that a class isn't part of some preconcieved notion on what they think or feel that class should be. Whether that be the single player games or the previous MMO. Heck I have seen people claim that Thief (Rogue) going into Ninja is a betrayal despite it being a precedent since the first game and even some Ninjas in the series having access to steal and other Thief functions.
Honestly I think, with BLUs unique game mechanics, the fallout would have been much worse if it was just another class that only gained skills from job quests. And spell learning had too many pitfalls in organised group play that the team have specifically tried to avoid with this game. In that every class, outside of Ilvl and skill, can be brought to any content at max level because it's a level playing field within the classes themselves. A SMN is a SMN, A PLD is a PLD etc. The Spell learning is too much of a chaotic element, It would be the old Cross Class skills problem x100, and regimenting them removes the Blue Mage element which makes the job so appealing. -
10-25-2020, 02:38 AMMaraD_I never said I was against his point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Auryan
His examples just suck lol. (I actually agree with his 1st statement. Not so much the 2nd statement)
Though I do disagree to the idea "its not possible to make something work, with "enough" flavor, even if its not 100% the same amount of flavor."
But we all know people would complain still, even if its 99% the same.
Ive seen them, and I still think some of them are without merit. (Depends on the issue) I also said I know it was sarcasm xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Razard
As for how negative peoples feedback would have been, thats only an assumption any of us could make, and honestly, its hard to tell what is a vocal minority, or what is genuinely a large majority.
I'm still of the opinion jobs could be "closer" to a vague "job identity". I also think some jobs feel as if SE was trying to fit another class identity in them (from Lineage2, or WoW) and just changed the name to an FF job name. I also feel most of 2.0 jobs were a rush job to slap as much as they could onto the jobs, even if other jobs shared in the same gimmick/mechanic. (While also referencing some of the odd choices in 1.23, which I felt were weird as heck back then too, because I can only assume this was yoshidas L2 days coming out , and influencing his decisions.)
Again, I know people will always complain, even if you had a 100% clone of the job, because someone else imagined it to be different than what it actually is. (Or that it had potential to be something else)
Im fairly certain I could make a job based on BLU, that would carry a large percentage of BLU traits from different Final Fantasies (not solely FFXI) and fit within the 3.0-4.0 style of FF14. (I couldnt do it based on 5.0, and id have to make something slightly different for 1.0-2.0 designs) Based on how 5.0 turned out, I believe this is the main reason BLU turned out as a limited job. (You'd have to look at older posts of mine regarding BLU, to get the long story on that) I'm also certain most people would complain its not close enough to FFXIs BLU. (and in some cases, not like a BLU in another FF, as Ive seen happen before with some people)
Ironically, most of the "complaints" people have for 'why BLU cant be a real job', are issues that already exist elsewhere, and instead of complaining about those same issues elsewhere, because they actually like those "problems". (Example Lost Death in the southern front, suddenly its ok for actions to only be usable in rare occasions, where as before it was unreasonable for BLU to have death that couldnt work on bosses, but its ok if it fails on most bosses as a limited job... because otherwise, thats somehow not "true blue mage"...) -
10-25-2020, 03:21 AMShougun
Problem I have with your logic Razard is that you say they did something due to organized group play issues and then force it into organized group play, say for classic spells and they've modified several spells due to balance. Nearly every reason for blue mage being the way that it is .. is then still a problem after implementation.
Furthermore blue mage has only had a huge huge list of skills in one game, FFXI. They could absolutely have presented skill learning of blue with a narrower list and that be true blue in sense of learning skills (it's not hard to see how giving blue a specific kit for DF would be easily balanced, and if you keep the limited side then you can have blue go learn it all on their own via the game content + carnival). Blue mage has only once been about picking spells into a bar. Often blue mage has an equal or lesser set of number of skills than other jobs and other jobs often have many overpowered spells too. Like reflect. So "but I don't get to pick my kit therefore not true blue" is nonsense, that is not required to be true blue (not saying that's your argument, I'm speaking generally :p).
Currently they only partially gave true blue (if we accept the reasons why they made blue the way it is now), they still did the things they said they didn't want to do (multiple spells have been adjusted for balance reasons).
If it's true blue then remove the strict relationship with PF. If it's to be balanced then you can absolutely have spell learning and theme abilities to the monster originals while also being a normal job (some can be very much like the original like bad breath with some sort of cost or cool down, it's basically holy from white mage- it doesn't work on bosses for the most part just like holy).
My issue is no matter how you paint it the current blue is a mess (this isn't a statement into the future, they changes can change interpretation, depending on what they do- speaking 'current' only). If they wanted true blue then they missed with their nerfing of skills, if they wanted a fun and excitingly designed blue with good progression then they greatly missed (imo). If they want it limited then hopefully they check their reasons for their actions, like not forcing party issues, giving the full grand power, etc, if they wanted it to just be nonsense fun then again to go back because the design has pitfalls all over (easily logically argued the least interesting job mechanically during it's leveling process, and at cap until multiple PF exclusive spells), and if they wanted to balance it then great add it to the dang DF. Currently they did everything they said they didn't want to do and why it can't be in DF just so they can put it into PF. -
10-25-2020, 03:24 AMtyranical69
Make Blue Mage a normal job!!! It'll be more fun, plus I'd play it when I can queue duty finder and get my spells more easily (That are DF only), while I explore around the map leveling and trying to get new spells waiting for a notification compared to party finder :3
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10-25-2020, 03:27 AMADVSS
I mean for starters all the 50 up job quests always end in a caveat from the trainer telling you to go find/learn this skill. Which becomes a requirement to continue the quest later on down the road. Why couldnt this just be the flavor of BLU's manditory skills within the framework, as it would be a normal job. Most class quests make no sense anyway as to how other jobs gain their skills through them anyway. PLD 2.0 job quests had you necromancing dead paladins to kill them and become more palidin-like at some point(?yup checks out) so the format of finding the necessary bread and butter skills as a job quest requirement seems fine for BLU. Since BLU has an actual trainer, like all Jobs/Job quest do, its just because their quests arent the same, come to x locatation, talk to x destination, fight enemy in preplanned purple fog location?(they do also have a few of these types as well, to be fair)
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10-25-2020, 04:11 AMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
I think this is the most powerful cherry on top of why blue could easily maintain learning but also be DF able.
So if you picture blue getting a primal level 50 spell at level 73. No problem, they can go get it themselves solo. If it was a level 73 spell in a 73 dungeon, no problem can go learn it via DF. If it was part of some raid or hyper hard current content then you use the carnival / npc to have a mock battle. Like you can learn ram and dragon voice in the carnival rather than going out to do the relic quest, the mock carnival battle is easily be solo able. Add purple fog to that mix and boom...
Every single spell blue needs to be cool and DF-able is within reach when you work those systems together.
Which reminds me of SMN from FFXI doing their solo pilgrimage to get new primals. And is as you say very much like our current job quests at cap where you go do some cool battle anyways.
And some people have made kit ideas for DF blue but just reiterating kit blue is not 'true blue' simply learning monster spells is (and if we argue it has to be 100% the same then our current blue already failed that anyways). And many monster spells can work fine even with their weird theme, and made better by adding combos and gauge mechanics to them (ensuring an exciting kit, and sooner too) .
Of course I do think you might have a cool limited kit blue with wild combos, but I think our current blue missed that hard with majority useless and or pure improvement spell designs (120 vs 220 potency aoe.. oooooh lol) with limited interactions based nearly on just buff windows (looking at Diablo 3 / Hades as inspiration of example of combos being wild fun). -
10-25-2020, 04:34 AMAuryanThe example you used as RDM by way of SMN/SCH isn't just a question of flavor, it's a much more impactful gameplay decision that requires a lot of balance. RDM having Vercure that nods to its supportive roots in the series is different than having a separate job crystal that is a full-on healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
They are more gameplay than balance changes. Likely as a result of people complaining that spamming Off-guard on one target for decent damage and poor on everything else. The damage bonus has been baked into the spells and the numbers are mostly comparable to the changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
The "Brush with Death" status effect doesn't have any practical influence on the job. Prior to the changes, BLU would rarely use these spells outside of maybe as combo finishers and moogle tome farming. It's only gotten more potent in that capacity since the lvl 60 update and tome farming can work around and/or doesn't care about the debuff. This change mostly affected the puzzle cheesing that was going in SB. I guess you can count that as "balancing" if you squint just enough.
Notice how since HW that job quests provide little to no abilities? It's because players haven't been keen on doing them. Now a single job should be exempt from that and do something that no other job does anymore? For job flavor? Ostracizing BLU for job fantasy would only work for the BLU fanboys, and not the majority of players. Making a job accessible to as many people as possible is what the developers want from a standard job.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS