Why are summoners so neglected?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuzonoha

I main summoner, and I don't mind the summons themselves. I do however care about my contagion. A ton. And the delay in it's skill grinds my gears a bit. Everything else regarding the summoners is fine. I adore their gameplay and while the level 50 rotation leaves a bit to be desired personally, I love how engaging the level 60 rotation is. It's busy in a good way yet pretty mobile.

For Stormblood I don't even mind if the rotation doesn't change too much, just allow the job to be consistent, don't pin me to the ground either :( Also contagion. It should be on a SMN, not a pet.

---

Or just make the pets more responsive. Pretty sure the delay stems from Garuda not being able to use Contagion while in the middle of an attack. In WoW, pets have a variety of special abilities, most of which are off the pet's GCD and therefore can be activated instantly, regardless of what the pet was doing before the command. Garuda's special abilities should just all be off the GCD and able to be used while casting, except perhaps Aerial Slash, though it honestly wouldn't be a big deal if that was as well and the impact would be minimal.

I was thinking since Tri-disaster and Contagion are on the same cooldown, they could even combine it into one effect and give Garuda a new 4th ability or something.

Although that would leave Miasma II out of the contagion mix.... hmm... Though I do think that may be one of the abilities on the chopping block come the expansion.

Probably the same way my PLD was neglected during the release of Gordias.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I was thinking since Tri-disaster and Contagion are on the same cooldown, they could even combine it into one effect and give Garuda a new 4th ability or something.

Although that would leave Miasma II out of the contagion mix.... hmm... Though I do think that may be one of the abilities on the chopping block come the expansion.

---

That would be a great idea actually. With the way our rotation is, there's no room for Miasma II since we always use Tri Disaster and Contagion during Dreadwyrm Trance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

SMN makes a pretty bad pet job conceptually anyway. I agree with what you are saying, however I think that that would result in two different jobs. My absolute ideal scenario is designing SMN around the trance element, at the same time as introducing BST as the pet focused job that everyone wants SMN to be. SMN right now is caught between a rock and a hard place because people want it to feel like a SMN and be pet focused, and that is not feasible (no matter what FFXI has people believe).

---

I disagree here. You don't have to turn the job into the Lineage II Arcana Lord (a caster that summons pets, whose entire skill set is basically pet-specific buffs and heals to cast) to give the job the needed focus on pets.

There's a reason I've mentioned things both on the obvious and subtle levels. The player knowing that their pet gains extra damage on mobs affected by their DoTs is one way to establish a connection between the master and pet without having to go the route of Arcana Lord skills. On the obvious side of things, giving the job cooldowns that affect pets would be a step in the right direction (hence why I mentioned an aetherflow skill that makes your egi temporarily "evolve" into something a little closer to the primal the egi is based on while dealing more damage). Having a context-sensitive button for egi utility would also establish the master-pet connection by making the player feel they're directly commanding the egi to do things while still being part of a rotation if implemented properly. Simply put, there's ways to make it work.

My issue with Dreadwyrm Trance is that while it looks cool, it's also VERY limiting in concept. It's really something that's clearly built without much room for growth, because the most you would add to it between the 60 and 70 level caps would be more powerful skills to take the place of Ruin 3 and Pain Flare once trance is up. Sure, we can go back to my earlier point about how Bahamut is the end all of summons, but that makes the idea of summoner sort of pointless if you have only one entity that actually counts (you might as well name the job "Dragon Caller" if you're going that route).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I've always imagined BST as a dual axe or spear-wielder just because whips have always seemed a bit too distant and disengaged from the heat of the fight to pull off that sort of synergy.

---

Melee would get really crowded if you went that direction. At least Survival hunters are stationary, so even though they take extra space because of their pet, you don't have anyone shuffling from rear to flanks like we do here.

Quote:

---

Similarly, I've always imagined most of the core Aetherflow abilities as being pet-dependent or pet-differentiated, AF being spendable on burst casts or pet buffs, and Aetherflow generating particular, synergizing elements via Aethertrail based on the pet used to contribute to its Trace (e.g. Fire, Wind, Unaspected -> Phoenix Trance; any two non-synergizing pairs of opposite elements create Dreadwyrm Trance; more AF stacks overall).

---

This would definitely necessitate splitting SCH and SMN completely, which I'm not opposed to.

Quote:

---

We may yet see SAM thrown out as a "critical conceptual error" just for having ani-locked movement, and that wouldn't quite be the whole truth either; there would have yet been ways to balance that ani-lock, showing that the true issue was the lack of eventive movement manipulation, not the ani-lock itself.

---

You'd have to design content to require less movement or give SAM passive damage reduction/evasion when using animation-locked skills. And that has a ton of room for abuse. This wouldn't be like WoW Demon Hunters that have just an increased dodge chance on some of the more animated skills (and really, they have that because certain skill animations put them in front of the mob, where they'd get their faces crit off followed by a dirt nap).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

My issue with Dreadwyrm Trance is that while it looks cool, it's also VERY limiting in concept. It's really something that's clearly built without much room for growth, because the most you would add to it between the 60 and 70 level caps would be more powerful skills to take the place of Ruin 3 and Pain Flare once trance is up. Sure, we can go back to my earlier point about how Bahamut is the end all of summons, but that makes the idea of summoner sort of pointless if you have only one entity that actually counts (you might as well name the job "Dragon Caller" if you're going that route).

---

Agreed. Sadly, I haven't much to say you haven't already said. To me, the chaotic trance that comprises Bahamut should be due to the more essential or focused primal uses proceeding it, via the combination in those elements. At that point you have synergy/harmony vs. chaotics, where either can look really goddamn awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

Melee would get really crowded if you went that direction. At least Survival hunters are stationary, so even though they take extra space because of their pet, you don't have anyone shuffling from rear to flanks like we do here.

---

I'd be fine with that. I'm in no rush to see Beastmaster, and would honestly rather not see it at all than see something painfully shallow. In that time, we might be able to build up a few more ranged classes, leveling out that melee portion of the job-base. tl;dr: I'm already sad enough that RDM isn't a true hybrid melee/ranged/caster. He just looks like a ASTBLM to me with a thrown in, little-to-no synergy plunge/repel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

This would definitely necessitate splitting SCH and SMN completely, which I'm not opposed to.

---

I'm not opposed to it, either, necessarily, but I don't actually see why that would necessitate it either. SCH and SMN already each have unique AF-consuming actions. And if we can already add or remove effects just based on being in PvP, why would it be conceptually (I can't argue code here, as I don't have theirs to look at anyways) impossible to have one job add or subtract an effect or condition from a given action or buff or nerf another one (e.g. giving Spur an AF cost). Job traits seem like the only thing holding it back, as SMNs would otherwise have more means of AF generation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

You'd have to design content to require less movement or give SAM passive damage reduction/evasion when using animation-locked skills. And that has a ton of room for abuse. This wouldn't be like WoW Demon Hunters that have just an increased dodge chance on some of the more animated skills (and really, they have that because certain skill animations put them in front of the mob, where they'd get their faces crit off followed by a dirt nap).

---

That's what I'm saying though. We already know that SAM is going to have significant ani-lock that we're going to "have to be careful in using". That's been in the live letters. I'm just saying that as long as there's something to balance that out, that won't make the job, or even the idea of including ani-locks, conceptually flawed -- which, my best guess, will be an immediate heated complaint before people get used to it. As long as there's still enough control given, the ani-lock is irrelevant. (Similar to a sprinting caster staying in an AoE for longer before darting out. His being a caster doesn't utterly screw him over, because there's something to balance it.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

My issue with Dreadwyrm Trance is that while it looks cool, it's also VERY limiting in concept. It's really something that's clearly built without much room for growth, because the most you would add to it between the 60 and 70 level caps would be more powerful skills to take the place of Ruin 3 and Pain Flare once trance is up. Sure, we can go back to my earlier point about how Bahamut is the end all of summons, but that makes the idea of summoner sort of pointless if you have only one entity that actually counts (you might as well name the job "Dragon Caller" if you're going that route).

---

The Dread stance seems too tight even looking outside of it's mechanics, like unless you're to make it useless you'll want to go into it which means you'll need things that don't interrupt whatever is within.. and whatever within cannot be that much as you've already stated. Like if there is a bunch of new spells that obstruct getting into stance they wont be valued as much unless it's a bunch of cooldown items that are not regulars, or they change how you get into the stance, but it all will have to revolve around that very short stance period.

Hopefully they can modify the stance a little, they can still keep the idea but just change how the mechanic works. While not the most unique I think of warrior stacks as a more open system (stacks grow and wind down if not used/re-stacked, many abilities can use them - perhaps partial or entire), which is probably closer to the quick sketch idea we discussed /long/ ago lol. Pyrefly battery building up to unlock higher tiered summon spells, was my quick excuse on pulling more evolved egi and other big spells without killing the summoner/disrupting lore much (inundating the environment with aether and then wisping it into your egi till battery drained). Although it could be more general enhanced trance like Shurrikhan, the short time wouldn't be as much of a problem but what you do in it would change obviously - which could be pretty cool. Difference from now seems important though :P.

I'm sure something else far more mechanically interesting could be made but I do agree that it seems concerning and I'm very interested to see what they do with it moving forward, although I also feel about that with cleric stance (will limit the style of DD if all healers get it, would be better even if each healer received a tweaked cleric stance (like inverse cleric stance) instead of a generic one - it could make more easily interesting healer differences if they don't all share the same path to damage, even if a bit harder to balance but of course uniqueness and challenge vs homogeneous and easy balance).

So excited to see what changes the expansion brings, and also afraid lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I was thinking since Tri-disaster and Contagion are on the same cooldown, they could even combine it into one effect and give Garuda a new 4th ability or something.

Although that would leave Miasma II out of the contagion mix.... hmm... Though I do think that may be one of the abilities on the chopping block come the expansion.

---

Or maybe make it a skill summoners themselves have? I mean, Garuda isn't the only summon either...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synrin

Or maybe make it a skill summoners themselves have? I mean, Garuda isn't the only summon either...

---

I agree but Im not big on pets and current game mechanics. Theres complaints about fairies being knock out of place, etc. Thats the whole fun imo of the pet game in this game. More importantly i get you guys wanna summon big B
s and just stand back like yuna and tell them what to do, while landslides ignore your entire existance. What Id rather see is dissipation on smn. eat that styoud abomination parrot, that match sticks flaming fries, or even more riske whoever decideds to summon the 20 chicken nuggets to fight with them, dissipate, increase damage by 20 percent and deal an iconic simmon spell ultimate like deathflare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Agreed. Sadly, I haven't much to say you haven't already said. To me, the chaotic trance that comprises Bahamut should be due to the more essential or focused primal uses proceeding it, via the combination in those elements. At that point you have synergy/harmony vs. chaotics, where either can look really goddamn awesome.

---

Would SMN players be okay with getting the equivalent of mudras, though? Not to mention I feel you'd have to entirely remove egis to sort of outline what SMN is about in combat (since between DWT and egis you get mixed signals).

Quote:

---

I'm not opposed to it, either, necessarily, but I don't actually see why that would necessitate it either. SCH and SMN already each have unique AF-consuming actions. And if we can already add or remove effects just based on being in PvP, why would it be conceptually (I can't argue code here, as I don't have theirs to look at anyways) impossible to have one job add or subtract an effect or condition from a given action or buff or nerf another one (e.g. giving Spur an AF cost). Job traits seem like the only thing holding it back, as SMNs would otherwise have more means of AF generation.

---

Well, I'd like the jobs' Aetherflow skills to be different from the get go. Assuming we were to change ACN so that it becomes SCH at lv30, you'd then be able to build SMN off it's own version of aetherflow with skills that would work with this new trance system you're suggesting.

Quote:

---

That's what I'm saying though. We already know that SAM is going to have significant ani-lock that we're going to "have to be careful in using". That's been in the live letters. I'm just saying that as long as there's something to balance that out, that won't make the job, or even the idea of including ani-locks, conceptually flawed -- which, my best guess, will be an immediate heated complaint before people get used to it. As long as there's still enough control given, the ani-lock is irrelevant. (Similar to a sprinting caster staying in an AoE for longer before darting out. His being a caster doesn't utterly screw him over, because there's something to balance it.)

---

Animation locks are the antithesis of combat that requires movement. Just saying "be careful when using it" sounds more like a copout for refusing to learn a lesson in how animation locks affected jobs like DRG. Sure, full animations look nice and all, but if you're kissing the floor right afterwards, it means nothing.

You can't compare that to sprinting out of a telegraph, since the player is in absolute control the whole time, from the moment the cast starts to the very end. Getting animation locked takes away control and is an entirely different beast. And if we're going with more "random" elements in raid fights like some have been asking, that means you're going to need clairvoyance to make use of an animation-locked job. That or design every fight to be a memory game like Titan EX.

Quote:

---

I'd be fine with that. I'm in no rush to see Beastmaster, and would honestly rather not see it at all than see something painfully shallow. In that time, we might be able to build up a few more ranged classes, leveling out that melee portion of the job-base. tl;dr: I'm already sad enough that RDM isn't a true hybrid melee/ranged/caster. He just looks like a ASTBLM to me with a thrown in, little-to-no synergy plunge/repel.

---

Yeah, it's almost like SE chose to ignore feedback and somehow missed that ret paladins and enhance shaman showed how you implement a melee-magic hybrid (either that or the devs are stuck to the notion that RDM absolutely must be a caster).