We can argue all day about whether carrying a few bad players (regardless of role) in normal mode is acceptable or not, but currently it's possible and I don't think it'll change anytime soon, considering the gap between the good players and the average people you find in DF, which leads to what this thread is (supposedly) discussing about: trimming the skill set of jobs and making their rotations simpler.
I believe no one likes having to take on the burden of carrying underperforming players, especially those who refuse to listen to advices to get better, but as of now I think it'd be bad if you tune normal mode raids to something that would be impossible to clear with 1-2 bad players since the success rate of DFing those would plummet significantly. Fyi even in a9s and a10s you can clear while carrying a dead dps as long as the other 7 people are competent, meanwhile my friends who RF these fights every week still see wipes due to enrage or failing dps checks (adds). I don't think tuning a9n-a12n to something of that level would be something SE would do. Personally I have accepted that normal mode raids are places where you can carry a few bad players.
Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0
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11-09-2016, 12:26 AMaleph_null
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11-09-2016, 01:12 AMSarcaticaYou can say that only A12S "forces" you to put up tank stance for the tank busters if you want to avoid some buttclenching damage. Aside that, all the tank busters can be tanked without tank stance easily with the condition that you actually know when to use your CDs optimally. However you do need to discount that it's only something to attempt if you are completely sure about it. So not just anyone can replicate the aggressive tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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11-09-2016, 01:44 AMwhiskeybravoThat's really my only gripe on the whole argument. It's fine for veteran players who know what they are doing, my problem is the emphasis that seems to be placed on "if you aren't doing this then you're doing it wrong" which can be misleading to newer players, or cause unnecessary frustration for progression groups. I mean, would you rather spend 10 hours more on progression while your tank figures it out his cd rotation so he can drop stances or is it better to clear the content several times before you start pushing yourself and the rest of the team? It just seems to be an overlooked gray area by both sides of the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
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11-09-2016, 03:16 AMReynhartBut unless they create more content (Which they kind of hinted to at Fanfest, and that would probably displease hardcore raiders...), it means building the learning curve throughout dungeons and primals.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
There's "anyone" and "anyone". The less you'll ask to your players, the less they'll do and the less they'll try harder content...requiring a slight effort is not inconceivable.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
But being able to clear Alex Normal with almost no effort doesn't prepare you to go into Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
Yes, Sophia EX is fun, with a bit of RNG, even though the RNG is mostly dependent of what you skip.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
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11-09-2016, 05:25 AMUltimatecaliburActually your examples are really bad and your statistical analysis is incredibly faulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
First off the Grit parse is from October 4th and the no-Grit parse is from November 2nd. That is plenty of time to go from i255 to i260+ accounting a potion of the roughly 22% to 40% increase in DpS that everyone else experienced as well as part of the damage taken decrease. The no-Grit parse's dps is also inflated by an Astrologian using Balance.
Second the Grit Parse ends shortly after a huge damage spike (likely a soaked Double Scrapline) which inflated the DTPS total.
Your comparison is non-comparable for anything but the difference in 5 weeks of gearing up, fight familiarity and use of an Astrologian over a White Mage.
P.S. Looking at things a bit more it looks like you gained about a 40% increase in damage from gear, fight familiarity and Astro buffs which would put the change closer to 20% for 20%. -
11-09-2016, 06:27 AMReynhartActually considering that Grit only reduces damage by 20% and that Darkside is available whatever you do, 70% difference between Grit and non-Grit seems really really high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Sure, you have Blood Weapon to Dark Arts more, but still... -
11-09-2016, 07:10 AMUltimatecaliburReread what I said: Most of that 70% increase in dps is from 5 weeks of gear and an Astrologian feeding Balances to the party rather than the increase being from the difference between not being in Grit and being in Grit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
To keep it simple no Grit to Grit is 20% less damage taken for ~20% less damage dealt.
The reverse Grit to no Grit is 25% more damage taken for ~25% more damage dealt.
A 36% increase in damage from better gear and Balance buffs combined with a 25% increase in damage from going from Grit to no-Grit is a total increase of 70%. (1.36*1.25=1.7) -
11-09-2016, 07:21 AMReynhartI have read what you said and I agree with you. 70% increase can't be the result of proper stance dancing alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
What could be interesting is doing two runs with the same team, one where the tank stays in tank stance, and one where he stance dances. We'll see how much damage he takes, how much DPS he does, and how much DPS the healer loses as a tradeoff. -
11-09-2016, 11:06 AMShurrikhanAs long as the raid dps is increasing as a result though—e.g. if that extra 20% healing needed resulted in less than a 20% decrease in healer dps, or where delayed heals could cause lost dps due to hesitation among the wounded DPS—that 20% for 20% isn't necessarily an even trade. Alternatively, if the tank were already maximizing the healer's toolkit in the form of HoTs and abilities when primarily in Grit, the move to stance-dancing could theoretically cost more than 20% depending on the timing. Which would make the decision not necessarily a "choice" (if anything ever is, anyways?), but certainly context-dependent (which to me sounds about perfect).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
What remains after that point may not be a matter for rebalancing stance payoff, but rather of rebalancing healer output slightly.
Or of course, adjusting how that damage is dealt, as to reward tank-healer skill at least as well as before while making the tank stance slightly more lucrative.
That said, were one to have dropped Grit the entire fight, the difference would be larger than just the removal of the damage penalty. You would need to also account for Blood Weapon's mana generation (associated spenders) and slightly increased attack speed, (higher hpm and associated rotational/speed plateaus during and sync thereafter), which would have a further, if small, positive effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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11-09-2016, 11:14 AMSarcaticaI am pointing this out because primarily this is what most of the team deal with, comparing to the better parse ofc. Double Scrapline is not meant to be soaked, has nothing to do with DTPS. You can't bunch fight familiarity with Astro buffs because that's part of the fight and not because you decide to bring AST that your execution becomes great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
I agree that this comparison is flawed by its nature due to the gear upgrades and growth as a team, I do not have the sufficient data to actually compare parses with me being the only variance, because I do need to parse more runs to get a reliable comparison (and my team probably isn't keen to keep running the same fight just because I want to gather data). However a point was brought to the table that optimized runs is basically on how skilled you are AND how good is your team to plan out the fights as a group, even to the smallest things like movements, defensive CDs run down to the healers, etc.