Worst end game community ever?

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Originally Posted by Lunchable

Hit 50 about 3 days ago. This weekend is the first chance I've had to play around with some of the end game content. So far I've gotta say the overall dbagishness, eliteness of the end game players has seriously made me reconsider subscribing.


Here's my problem: You have all these "pro" players essentially farming the same dungeon over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Putting ungoldy amounts of time into farming their very special gear, then bitching whenever new players come along and disturb their mindless dungeon grind.

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Welcome to every MMO. Join or make a FC with friends if other players attitudes are too much for you to handle.

Unfortunately, I have to say that I've had more trouble with people in this game using DF than I ever did in other games with random dungeon finders. But then, Asian grinders usually bring out the worst in people here in the States. I dunno why, but they get super anal and every little thing makes them explode.

Eventually you just have to hit a point where you realize: A) Them yelling really only negatively affects them. B) You'll get more done just saying "Get over it and play. Or leave. Your choice" than trying to argue with them C) People with happy out of game lives don't blow up like that, so you probably should give them more pity than anger. :(

Finally- find a group on your server and run with them regularly. As you learn each others playstyles, you will have a better gaming experience and not have to deal with that kind of issue nearly as much.

I find the endgame experience to be about normal for PVE servers. One of the reasons I migrated to a RP server on SWTOR, as it was just annoying dealing with this stuff. However, they are all PVE servers. In all honesty, I've had a pretty positive experience with DF and groups. Maybe my server group is a little less annoying than others.

I did have a Warrior tank yesterday on Ifrit that did terrible. He pulled Ifrit, and then 15 seconds later lost hate, which I have no idea how that happens with one target. Basically, Ifrit turned around, destroyed everything, and us healers were trying to pick up the pieces. We wiped. Then he was complaining about not getting healed. His friend was backing him up. Doesn't matter, I saw him lose hate. The other Pally gets annoyed, and so the next round they are trading tanking the boss, almost killed us again because there was just too much damage.

Anyway, we ended up winning. The point is, you get dbags, then you can be very straight forward with them. Arguments don't really help. But most people tend to be receptive to a let's give it a try attitude. That, and you don't really need armor for a 47 level dungeon. You do however need to be coordinated. And that is what a lot of the elite people miss when making fun of the Pug groups.

I feel that SE really should halve the ToP count granted at the end of CM and Prae, putting it on par with Wanderer's Palace, which is a fun instance. Personally, after doing CM and Prae once for the story, and suffering the pressure and abuse of speedrunners, WP was a lot more fun to farm. Sure you may get half the amount of tomestones in the same timeframe, but you do have a chance of winning a darklight weapon of item level 55 (as well as iLevel 55 armour). That in itself is worth running WP over CM. Did I mention WP is a fun instance?

In addition to the above, I feel that speedrunners should absolutely NOT be running via Duty Finder. It takes 10 minutes to form a group in Revenant's Toll. 10 minutes to grab a group of people from your own server, who are accountable for their actions because they are from your server. First-timers are stuck with using the Duty Finder to run the place, speedrunners really have no reason to do so outside of being unsociable and lazy.

One final afterthought; I've heard it argued that players doing it for the first time who are progressing through the story should form runs outside of the duty finder. It's this backwards "well if I have to form parties, why don't you?" logic. Please try and get a group of 8 non-speedrunners for CM/Prae and tell me how long it takes you. If you were to combine the assembly time for Dorme Chimera and Hydra, then you would probably be close.

The most unexpected thing happened to me yesterday - I was actually complemented on helping new players learn AK.

Now, don't get me wrong, I hit 50 very early last week and was busy with work so I was still wrapping up my ToM for the week, and only needed 17 more so I figured I'd DF one more AK run.

Tank and other DPS load in and inform the party it's their first runs, so I reply with a simple no problem and explain the bosses as we get to them. Did it take longer than usual? Sure. Who cares?

I understand the "Pump out tokens to get gear" mentality, but at the end of the day you need to work for that with other people. To put down people who simply have yet to learn the tricks is moronic, and unfortunately all too common.

A lot of older MMO players don't have this overbearing attitude, but sadly the ones that do leave a far more powerful impression.

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Originally Posted by Tolmos

But then, Asian grinders usually bring out the worst in people here in the States. I dunno why, but they get super anal and every little thing makes them explode.

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When a game forces you to repeat the same 1 or 2 dungeons hundreds of times, it's only normal you get like that. You want those 100 tomes so you can get out of that ill designed, boring, ugly fucking dungeon asap.

Is it right? Of course not. But it is expected.

If you want to blame anyone, blame SE for releasing a game with hardly any content to gear you up for Coil.

Ignore negative people. These are people who wouldn't survive the business world, end up in prison for poor business ethics, and not a viable part of a community.

On story the one dungeon you do need to speed it up to get all those parts done, but some parts trigger after the cs is done.

Work together and you succeed. Act rude, and harass, and you aren't going to get done, so why bother and destroy the chance at a successful run?

Being rude just gives you a bad rep. You may think you are a bad ass but in reality you piss off far more then you think you are impressing.

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Originally Posted by Argentil

In addition to the above, I feel that speedrunners should absolutely NOT be running via Duty Finder. It takes 10 minutes to form a group in Revenant's Toll. 10 minutes to grab a group of people from your own server, who are accountable for their actions because they are from your server. First-timers are stuck with using the Duty Finder to run the place, speedrunners really have no reason to do so outside of being unsociable and lazy.

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..... I'm sure calling people unsociable and lazy helps a lot. The Duty Finder is there to be used.

I'm sure people would be complaining then that they wait to long in the duty finder to find a group instead of the quick pops you get now. I have heard quite a few complaints of people waiting for Praetorian groups.

Porting to Revenant's Toll costs quite a bit of gill and if you have not realized it yet gill is pretty tight once you hit lvl 50 and start doing runs to gear up with repair costs etc. So using the Duty Finder saves from porting to Revenant's Toll to get a group.

This thread makes me sad. It also encourages me to keep doing what an FC-mate and I decided to do last night. A friend trying to finish game on his WHM needed to do CM and Praetorium, so I asked my pet tank to help him do a 'story run' and not have to rely on Duty Finder. No one else in the FC was free at the time, so we went up to the quest hub area and looked for people wanting to run it slow, gathered a group and led them through. He single tanked it perfectly well and I was able to solo-heal Preatoruim after the first boss when our WHM friend had to go for a home emergency. Stressful, but incredibly rewarding to let people relax and have fun, revel in the epic scenes and music of Preatorium... and we even gave them hits and showed them strats for when they DO end up with speed run groups for CM. It was a great time and I hope S'lade and I can do it again.

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Originally Posted by Rhymelark

..... I'm sure calling people unsociable and lazy helps a lot. The Duty Finder is there to be used.

I'm sure people would be complaining then that they wait to long in the duty finder to find a group instead of the quick pops you get now. I have heard quite a few complaints of people waiting for Praetorian groups.

Porting to Revenant's Toll costs quite a bit of gill and if you have not realized it yet gill is pretty tight once you hit lvl 50 and start doing runs to gear up with repair costs etc. So using the Duty Finder saves from porting to Revenant's Toll to get a group.

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Oh? That's strange, I see so many 50's gathered in Revenant's Toll forming groups. I go there daily myself. I have it set as a Favourite Point, my teleport's only cost 155 Gill from Limsa Lominsa, which is my home point. Why is this an argument? It's widely understood that RT is a group-finding hub, you also purchase your upgrades and crafting mats there.

As for "calling people unsociable and lazy;" I can only imagine you have a horse in this race, to take it so personally and in the worst possible way. I was making a point that finding a group is so easy, and often times faster than queueing as DPS, that you would have to be averse to making conversation, or browsing LFG text, which would make you unsociable, or lazy. Once people realise that DF speedrunning isn't the optimal way to go, things would improve all around. This is all if SE keep the tomestone reward the same. If they reduce the tomestone count by half, speedrunning would be a non-issue, but people would still run it for an easy reward.

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Originally Posted by Argentil

...removed so I can fit my reply in...

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Please read my post before the one you replied to. If you read it you would know that yes I do do speed runs. You would also know we do take peoples preferences in mind when doing so. I also offered several suggestions how this can be fixed one of which is that the duty finder has 2 options to sign up for a dungeon with cut-scenes and one without. Saying only certain people should use the duty finder is wrong. Everyone should be allowed to use it if they want and everyone should be willing to be considerate to each others way of playing.

My younger brother is also getting pretty discouraged with endgame behavior and I assured him to keep trying and that most people aren't like that.



It's just that he's on Ridill and the EN community there is less tolerant of failure and more desperate for success since there are probably less than 100 NAs that got stuck over there when they missed the previous transfer date. He's highly desirous of a transfer now because he's new and now every NA player on the server that plays his level knows he's new and NO ONE on the server will so much as stay in party with him. He's been told directly, "I always lose with you." and everyone leaves party.

I told him to do what he had to do and wait until he could transfer and play with his Big Sis and not get harassed by all the meanies out there. And if it gets overwhelming just go make some gil so he can buy a house. I don't want him to quit game over this because it does get better.

I think the people getting the worst of it are the new ones who are more innocent, less knowlegeable and require more patience than a player who has been around for a while. I remember going through Halatali with a character who couldn't even understand the concept of teleporting to another area through the "Aetherflows" that popped up, had no clue how to tank, and didn't understand that if you "Return" on the boss fight you were essentially removed from the fight (to his shock: "Why can't I get past this barrier?") But cluelessness is temporary and he did learn a lot... but he tried even my saintly patience, that guy.

So I see the other side too. 60 minutes is way too long for Halatali. I regretted even queuing up for that stupid dungeon, but I just wanted some Nostalgia but I just ended up spending an hour in the n00biest part of n00bland. It was really hard and I'm sure very few people would have had patience for a tank that couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag and better yet, I don't expect them too.

So new people: Don't expect people in endgame to have patience to teach you the ropes and appreciate those that do.
and experienced people: If you don't have patience, still be nice and say: "I'm sorry but I don't have time to teach you how to do this right now."

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Originally Posted by Kluya15

Welcome to every MMO. Join or make a FC with friends if other players attitudes are too much for you to handle.

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I'm guessing you are one of these "GOGOGOGOGOGOG DPS" players?

I did Castrum Meridianum couple days ago as a tank, said it was my first time at the start got told "you're on adds duty".

From then on it was a speed run through the whole thing, got moaned at to skip cut scenes and mocked whenever someone sometimes didn't hug the walls to avoid mobs properly. We got through it quickly with no wipes, yet it was still a pretty unpleasant experience. The players doing the mocking were complete losers, but tbh SE laid the ground work for this to happen. Pushing players to farm story line content with long cut scenes. It's 100% their fault imo.

I guess what I don't understand about all this is why anyone would find it fun to speed run the same dungeon over and over?

They skip as much of the dungeon/story as possible. They don't interact with other players in the group, except to yell at them.

So I don't fully understand the point of this? Why even bother playing?

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Originally Posted by Lunchable

I guess what I don't understand about all this is why anyone would find it fun to speed run the same dungeon over and over?

They skip as much of the dungeon/story as possible. They don't interact with other players in the group, except to yell at them.

So I don't fully understand the point of this? Why even bother playing?

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Because it's the only way to get tomestones, which are required to get gear to be able to do Coil of Bahamut..

I do speed runs myself, and I would love an option to auto-skip cutscenes I've seen many times before. That said, if someone in the group is new, I prefer to take it slow, and I never force them to skip cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by Lunchable

Hit 50 about 3 days ago...

Then the 'speed grinding starts'. Absolutely no watching cut scenes were told. Chop chop. Throughout the whole map were constantly harped on for making mistakes, told how bad we are as DPS, yada, yada.

Here's my problem: You have all these "pro" players essentially farming the same dungeon over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Putting ungoldy amounts of time into farming their very special gear, then bitching whenever new players come along and disturb their mindless dungeon grind.

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Don't understand why you're mad.

People are playing the game how SE designed it.

They wanted trash to be time consuming and provide no reward.
They wanted players to farm story instances with cut-scenes.
They designed the game with 1 instance for each respective token.

Getting upset at players who are playing the game how SE designed it is childish.

I don't care about dungeon grinding - tell me to not watch my cut-scenes, and I promise you I'll take extra long. In fact, if you complain enough, I might decide it's time for a sandwich.

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Originally Posted by Lunchable

I guess what I don't understand about all this is why anyone would find it fun to speed run the same dungeon over and over?

They skip as much of the dungeon/story as possible. They don't interact with other players in the group, except to yell at them.

So I don't fully understand the point of this? Why even bother playing?

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Most people (like me) who do the speed runs is that they have run everything that they are able to run with their current gear quite a few times. They want to move on to the next content and to do that they need better gear. Easiest way to do this is run the content that gives the most tokens for the shortest amount of time and that would be castrum. If they reduced the amount of tokens gotten from castrum after the first successfully completed run to say 50 and say boosted Wanderer's Palace tokens to 90 people would move over to it. A story dungeon with long cut-scenes should never have been made so rewarding.

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Originally Posted by duki

I don't care about dungeon grinding - tell me to not watch my cut-scenes, and I promise you I'll take extra long. In fact, if you complain enough, I might decide it's time for a sandwich.

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Haha, exactly :D

I really dont understand why everyone is so pissy about it. These are whiney little drama queen jerks out toruin peoples day ... ignore them.

Make a marco to use once some dbag starts with his drama, stating something along the lines of "<t> is being a whiney annoying little bitch so im turning off party chat and tells. Not getting 15m penalty timer because of that/those dumbass(es), so feel free to drop group if it makes you feel better. If I dont get healed im going AFK leeching. Hopefully ill pick up the boss strats and I suggest waiting for me to finish the cutscenes, if you want me help. Next time shove the attitude. Bye."

Thats it, worse case scenario, group falls apart. Honestly, anyone that drops group for such an insignificant reason is an idiot. Even a tank would be smarter to bite down and finish over take a 15 minute penalty only to start all over.

If we all do it well ... im sure theyd build a bridge and get over if after their fifth consecutive restart and getting nothing in the process.

I know you just hit 50, and the people around you suck, but I would like to extend my offer regardless, Come to my server, I'll invite you to our LS.

Our LS is for helping new to 50 gear up and get ready for endgame, we have geared people running with them all the time, and constantly helping. Then if the person we are helping is good, and friendly and fun, we invite them to our FC, regardless if they join our not the LS is an extension of our family and we care for the people in it. I know restarting sounds horrible, and I understand, but the offer is there whenever you want.
NO ONE should have to suffer like you just for being new to endgame. NO ONE.

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Originally Posted by Fuz

You should watch the cutscenes anyway and tell them they're free to leave if they're such douchebags about it.

It's your right to watch them during the run, as the story unfolds, like it was designed to be enjoyed.

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This. 100% this. If they don't like it, they can form a full group of d-holes that think just like them.

Try not letting it effect you. Ill be honest the couple real life friends I have who act like clowns in these mmos. Meaning they think there better then everyone plays 24/7 feels the need to insult others etc literally live worst then animals in a zoo they work part time at the local DQ play till 3am wake up at noon live in there parents garage. Drive a pos car and literally have nothing. Just remember this the next time you meet one of these clowns. There's probably a reason why they act like that.

So many people take rude people to serious don't let it effect you.

Sadly people do speed runs for fast tombs, thats it. Remember you can go back and watch the Cut scenes in your INN, just go to the book and pick the section you wanna watch. but like others said join a FC or a LS with some good people. Also welcome to how MMOs are sometimes also i know a friend who plays on a JP server and they have people who do Speed runs also. To the extent NA/EU servers? no clue but they do it to lol.

You really have to give MMO's a few months before you start shedding some of those "Dbags." Like most people have said any game with a LFG tool(duty finder) and you will see this. I searched on my servers forum to find a like minded FC and now i could not be more happy. I don't have to use the DF near as much. I complete content much easier and they always explain new content and help me learn.

Right now it's pretty common and pretty awful sadly. It is part of the influence WoW has had on the MMO world, which I'm sure we can all agree is just... wonderful. That's not to say I didn't encounter elitist back in EQ and other MMOs of old, but there was certainly a better overall community. For every bad player however there are good players too. Heck everyone in this topic is probably not so bad since they see and understand the issue.

Honestly the best thing you can do in those situations is try to defend/help the player in the group that is being attacked. Everyone is new to a dungeon at some point and harassing them isn't going to help them though it or encourage them to play the game. With any luck many of these people will go back to WoW when a new expansion drops.

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Originally Posted by Daays

Don't understand why you're mad.

People are playing the game how SE designed it.

They wanted trash to be time consuming and provide no reward.
They wanted players to farm story instances with cut-scenes.
They designed the game with 1 instance for each respective token.

Getting upset at players who are playing the game how SE designed it is childish.

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I could careless how players PLAY the game. I.E. if you want to speed run, by all means do it.

Where I am having the problem is how the players behave to other players who don't want to do it their way. I.E. screaming at new lvl 50's for watching cut scenes, going on to boss fights without players because they are taking too long, refusing to heal new players because they are not max dps.

I think that's a bit 'childish'. If you want to speed run then why are you using the dungeon finder to do it? I see players always looking for more for speed runs in map chat.

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Originally Posted by Daays

Don't understand why you're mad.

People are playing the game how SE designed it.

They wanted trash to be time consuming and provide no reward.
They wanted players to farm story instances with cut-scenes.
They designed the game with 1 instance for each respective token.

Getting upset at players who are playing the game how SE designed it is childish.

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http://www.sundriesshack.com/wp-cont...There-Fry1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Daays

Don't understand why you're mad.

People are playing the game how SE designed it.

They wanted trash to be time consuming and provide no reward.
They wanted players to farm story instances with cut-scenes.
They designed the game with 1 instance for each respective token.

Getting upset at players who are playing the game how SE designed it is childish.

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Granted if you had any of the follow up post you would see I've blamed SE for poor end game design multiple times throughout the replies.

Get a FC the DF is just a nightmare in general.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SE made the preraid grind really long that you need to run the same dungeon about 76 times to get full darklight people are sick of doing it and they want to do it fast. Pretty much full darklight is what you will need before starting coil.

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Is this true, 76 times?!?

(I'm only 48 yet, myself)

It's a bit of a mess.

To ensure there are enough people doing the 8 man story fights, they've put the most Tomes in them. If you don't put Tomes in them, there's a chance players won't get them done because people will just queue once. If you put too many Tomes in them, then people are going to do what they're doing now... which is behave appallingly.

Having the best place to farm Tomes being in direct conflict with those finishing the story is idiotic. However, hopefully in time it'll become less of an issue as more place to farm will open up.

One thing I don't really understand is why they don't put any direct drops into the 8 man story instances at all...?

I think I had some of the worst and best experiences over the weekend. One group where tanks left twice. And then queuing into a group which was all from one FC, overgeared and running it for a couple of members who got me through it in record time.

SE needs to rethink a bit.

I grind WP and AK long enough to fill in lower level slots of gear. I have gotten 4 DL pieces two for brd and 2 for whm. I have completely lost interest in getting more and haven't even tried titian hard yet. While I have had more good groups then bad ones I did AK Friday it was smooth as can be no deaths and the fastest boss kills I have experience to date. At the end the damn pld still said I sucked cause I didn't cast ensuna. one of the 5 or 6 times in the last boss fight. F*** YOU. Complaining when there nothing to complain about is the way of this community.

I was leveling Blm decided I must complete the Battlemage set. Got a group that couldn't kill the last boss I was tanking every try. After the third wipe I Examine the group the other blm still wearing level 9 jewelry and all quest gear of varying levels. Same with the pld who fortunately got all the pink gear from that run since thats all that ever drops. The sch just sucked on top of having crap gear. I still stuck with them and tried my best to make up for there short comings but just couldn't make it work. More player like them hit 50 everyday. I can see some of the attitude being justified but end gamers complain about things before they even attempt them. Like the tank in an Ifrit(hard) instance who quit soon as it started cause there was no blm in the group.

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Originally Posted by Callidous

Is this true, 76 times?!?

(I'm only 48 yet, myself)

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It's a lot. I don't know if it's 76, but it is a ton. Just go to Mor and look at the darklight vendors. It cost around 400 stones for one ring. You get 100 stones per run. Some of the larger pieces cost over 1k stones.

I only really have ffxi to compare it to but I remember end game being far more laid back in that. I certainly don't remember any of these problems in sky, dynamis etc

That game generally had a slightly older player base though, guess that helped

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Originally Posted by Lunchable

...Where I am having the problem is how the players behave to other players who don't want to do it their way. I.E. screaming at new lvl 50's for watching cut scenes, going on to boss fights without players because they are taking too long, refusing to heal new players because they are not max dps...

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Welcome to LFG. It happened to WoW the moment they implemented it. Since LFG pulls people from different servers there is no recourse for behaving badly. You might as well try to regulate internet behavior or stop cyberbullying while you're at it. It's a dark side of any MMO. It's mean, tragic, and pretty sad but there is nothing SE can do about it. People are a$$holes when "perceived" things impede them from getting their gear. You have two options: grow a thicker skin and ignore them, or make your own party and bypass them entirely.

Right now, end game is completely toxic and extremely off-putting. Telling people to not watch cutscenes in DUTY FINDER is absolutely ridiculous. If you take your "speed run" to the DF, you need to expect that you'll at least one first-timer, and shame on you for ruining their experience. Those last two dungeons were really fun to me the first time around, and I am thankful that I had the opportunity to run through them with other first-timers - everyone should be able to have that same experience if they want it. If you're going to speed run, make the entire group first and then queue.

One thing that has miffed me lately is the "gear requirements" for things like AK, CM, and Prae. I can't imagine what it's like trying to get a group these days without a relic, because, at least on my server, that is what ~90% of the groups are asking for any of these three dungeons. People want to run with other people who are geared, but how in the world are they supposed to get geared when they're getting snubbed out of parties for having mediocre gear? If you must absolutely not invite someone or remove someone from your group SOLELY based on their gear, then send them a tell, tell them why, and be civil about it. Have communication. It takes some effort to be kind sometimes, but do it anyway. Typing up a tell takes about 5 seconds, and trust me, it won't kill you (unless you're auto-running into a group of mobs). If you want to have a good community, it takes effort on everyone's part.

Finally, DPS meters. Put the parser down for a second and focus on the fight at hand. Remember that when you're in a party, you're a team and you have to work together. Perfectly executing your rotation and ending up as #1 DPS in your group doesn't really mean much when your healer just died to three adds. Worry about DPS when the fight is a DPS check, until then, try to figure out what is best for the group and act accordingly. Don't forget to communicate, because really, working through what went wrong and finding out how to fix it (civilly) will fix most problems.

tl;dr: Don't be rude.

A few points/thoughts here:

First: I don't think your "two options" are the only options. I think by changing up some rather simple game mechanics and the DF SE could cut down hardcore on this speed run, elitist attitude. I'm not going to detail these recommendations because numerous players have mentioned them throughout this post.


Second: The "grow thicker skin" thing is silly. It's not that these things are making me angry in real life, or affecting my real life in any sort of way outside of the game. However, they are ruining the general fun of the game, especially end-game.

CM was a terrible time for me to run for x times.I felt pretty bad for skipping cs for the first time I entered this dungeon,because everyone wasn't waiting at all. I think once I'm done with my relic weapon,I'll never enter the dungeon again.

Indeed,there are a lot of rude groups I've been in in end game dungeon via DF.People rushing like their live depend on it.But it's the hostile attitude from player towards player which make me shiver.This is my first mmo & I really enjoyed story/gameplay.People pay full prize for this game,so everyone should be able to enjoy cs without others bitching around.