SUMMONER, WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE OR ADD? (EVOLUTION & STAT ALLOCATION)

A couple items I have been thinking about that might makes things a bit better.

1. Have the Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar limit break change based on what pet they have out, and if their pet is not out then and only then use the Black Mage or White Mage Limit Break.
2. Change the way the spells to summon pets work. Instead of have the Summoner and Scholar Pets Replace Summon 1 and Summon 2 have them learned as new Spells, this way players have a bit more choice in what summon they use.
3. This goes for Arcanist right now since its the only class with 2 jobs, have ability points redone with each job.
4. When I set my pet to defensive I expect when it's done it should still be in defensive and not go back to the I will attack the next thing my master does.
5. Another control option would be to allow us to determine which attacks will be used and which ones will not when you using the Attack and Sic Commands

I really don't care how they look. I just want them stronger and fix that horrible envoker skills.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

We discussed your feedback about the design of the egi with the development team...

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I am sorry, but that is not acceptable. Summoner is an iconic FF job, and their summons have always been awesome. Getting them right is very important. In FFXIV, my summons should be a whole hell of a lot cooler than they are. They look like muppets. SE has completely dropped the ball on this matter. And that is beside the point that the majority of what I am contributing in a fight is not my pet, but my DOTs. Since when is a summoner a poison style character? This isn't a matter of "we will consider your feedback for the future". The Summoner in this game completely fails to capture the spirit, feel and style of a FF summoner.

I personally enjoy the difference between the Summoners from FFXI. I mean the idea of the Egi's only being a percentage of the primals power is cool. If Summoner's summoned the primals that would diminish the value of being a primal. Maybe they could fix the Limit Breaks and give each class their own type of Limit break and at LB 3 the Summoner could summon a primal haha. The only thing I can think of that could make a Summoner better is a slight damage buff, but then they would demolish other classes in PVP. So...I would say Summoners are pretty good the way they are.

I just want more Egi summons and the ability to summon Carbuncle again! I hate the fact that they got written over by Titan and Garuda.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

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We will however continue to take in your feedback when creating new egi that will be added in the future.

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I really hope the developing team will change their mind. Most people in here really don't mind not getting a 2x playersize avatar but the pets itself are lacking in every aspect not one of them looks even half as cool as carbuncle
Damn I want to be able to summon him on my smn again :/
What about the people who would like to see a more pet oriented summoner class instead of the warlock clone he is right now?

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

We discussed your feedback about the design of the egi with the development team. As was mentioned previously during the Beta test, the design planner reiterated that egi were designed to be a manifestation of a percentage of power taken from the primals and are intentionally designed to appear differently from the primal. As such, we aren't planning on changing the look of egi at higher levels.

We will however continue to take in your feedback when creating new egi that will be added in the future.

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That's a shame. Coulda of have Egi's grow-up like they did in AION.
Feel bad for you SMN's. The egi's are just meh, and Garuda looks the worse as it resembles nothing of Garuda.
It does look like an awesome design for a Wind Element to farm shards and such.
Also summoner in general just is a DoT class...He doesn't feel like a summoner to me, at all.

Do the egis go big and intimidating during Limit Break at least? That could work.

On the beta forums people talked about the negative appearance of the pets and the dev response there was wait for launch and play the class then give us your opinion, now people have played the class and it looks like the opinion is still the same so dev response is pretty much deal with it.

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Originally Posted by paradigmfellow

I really don't care how they look. I just want them stronger and fix that horrible envoker skills.

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Their strength is directly tied to your stats.

The least they can do is drop cool girl avatars on SCH. Like Shiva, Siren etc would perform much better as a SCH pet that looks pretty, than the abominations that are the titan, ifrit, garuda summons.

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

On the beta forums people talked about the negative appearance of the pets and the dev response there was wait for launch and play the class then give us your opinion, now people have played the class and it looks like the opinion is still the same so dev response is pretty much deal with it.

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Yup, this seems to be a trend. Its always wait and try it blah blah then after ppl say we still don't like it its "deal with it"

Please look at how great looking all the MINIONS are... and do not tell me that you cannot make a better looking model of the egi considering all the minions are really cool looking and "cute". I dont mind that smn plays like WoW Warlock, but please let us take total control of our pet abilities like smn in FFXI and for the love of god, let us customize the pet hot bar and move the buttons around....

I think what they were going for wasn't having these huge monster primals that we control. Summoner in FF history was always calling these huge monsters. but unless all we want is for SMN to call these huge beast, they do an attack, and then vanish and we just continue to attack until the cool down timer ends. I have always loved the summoner class. but how do you make a class that is usually the healers (excluding ff13), that is given these espers (eidolons, aeons) so they can atleast be able to deal some damage. into a game where everything is class based?

And if everyone hates SMN so much why use it? just because it wasn't what you were expecting doesn't meant that it isn't good. I like SMN/SCH, its a good class that can help fill any spots in a team. if an extra tank is needed, use Titan. a close range DPS use Ifrit, and if a long range DPS is needed use Garuda. but that's my own opinion.

First off I know actually summon primals are coming for FC use so I'm not going to complain about Egi size and looks.

The change I would like to see are as follows:
1) Pet control is bad. More so with SCH but it needs work. I would like to select the abilities I want them to auto use.

2) Egi abilities are less party based and more solo based. SMN is a job, which very nature is for use in groups.

-Ifrit ability changes:
---Crimson Cyclone: remove stun add ncrease damage dealt by 10%. 60s cooldown
---Burning Strike: remain the same
---Radiant Shield: Change to Crimson Howl which adds Enfire to the party.
---Flaming Crush: add AoE burn DoT: potency 5 for 10secs

-Titan ability changes:
---Rock Buster: add slow effect
---Mountain Buster: add AoE bind effect
---Earthen Ward: Adds defensive buff to the party.
---Landslide: remove stun add range attack

-Garuda ability changes:
---Wind Blade: remain the same
---Shockwave: add Aero DoT effect (10 potency for 5s)
---Aerial Slash: add AoE blind effect
---Contagion: remain the same

3) Change Tri-Disaster to level 35 and add instant cast with 20 potency for 20s -mainly to help with adds.

summoned pets disappearing... they should just abandon target and come to you if you get to far.

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Originally Posted by Talsalus

summoned pets disappearing... they should just abandon target and come to you if you get to far.

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That'd be like FFXI and people would hate that.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

We discussed your feedback about the design of the egi with the development team. As was mentioned previously during the Beta test, the design planner reiterated that egi were designed to be a manifestation of a percentage of power taken from the primals and are intentionally designed to appear differently from the primal. As such, we aren't planning on changing the look of egi at higher levels.

We will however continue to take in your feedback when creating new egi that will be added in the future.

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To me the problem is that summoner doesn't really feel like summoner. It's kind of unfortunate that in a game that is intended to be played for 10 years one of the most iconic FF jobs is basically a shadow of what it should be. The story has kind of locked us in at this point, but I would say that not all of the classic primals need to be godlike.

Pet control, pet control, pet control. In the form of being able to customize THE PETS HOTBAR not just put the pets skills on a different hot bar. Allow us to select which moves are used during guard stance or make obey and sic stances of their own as well. That is all I want for SMN and SCH. I have worked my way around all those on my SCH but the SMN is a different issue.

Coming from someone who is at end game as a Summoner (turn 5)...

As everyone else is saying, and I have to add myself, Summoner is a disappointment in this game. It's a fun gameplay style, and it's (mostly) okay, but it's not a Summoner. Whatever this thing is we're playing should not be called Summoner; there should be a real FF Summoner class.

SE, despite the fact you guys said you were taking in fan feedback and remaking the game, you really derped this one. Despite everyone telling you the entire time during development what they wanted, and now all this post-release feedback going to you, you continue to say "too bad, this is how the designers want it." Like, seriously? After all this time of remaking the game, now suddenly fan feedback isn't important anymore? This is really a no brainer, and this issue needs to be taken more seriously than just "sorry no, accept it for how it is."

You can't just keep saying "we already made this, sorry it would take too much effort and we would feel dumb if we admit we made a mistake." I understand you wanted a DoT caster so bad, and I understand you wanted a pet class so bad, but merging the two ideas together was absolutely horrible for fans of Summoner. NOBODY that was looking forward to Summoner was expecting this or wanted this. This is not Summoner, it's a DoT caster, with a green dragon as a pet (multiple people on occasion have called Garuda a "dragon" when they see my pet). Yes, Garuda, because Ifrit is literally useless and Titan is only useful for FATE tanking (yes, I'm aware of you people that think you're so cool because you got through Amdapor Keep with Titan as tank and 3 DPS people, but taking 40 minutes/longer in general is not a good thing). Heck, even ignoring you merging the two ideas together, you STILL could've gotten this right, but it feels like you put forth no effort in the design and just straight up slapped the Summoner name on it at the last second.

As a SUMMONER, I would like the majority of my damage and utility and power to come from my PET. As of right now, the pet is equivalent to a tiny portion of your total damage output, and is an auto-attack turret that you only slightly pay attention to when it's going to die (because that would be a DPS loss, oh no) or when you need Contagion. That's not Summoner at all, in any FINAL FANTASY, and if you wanted to add Summoner as fan service because EVERYONE WAS REQUESTING IT, maybe you should've thought to actually make it like the SUMMONER people wanted; at least SOMEHOW. So many other games did your Summoner DoT concept stupidity better than you did (Aion Spiritmaster comes to mind); if you REALLY wanted to do this funky combination, you could've at least put some more effort into it, or just kept true to past FINAL FANTASY style.

I hope Japan is complaining about this as much as we are. I hope SE decides to actually THINK ABOUT THIS and do something.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

We discussed your feedback about the design of the egi with the development team. As was mentioned previously during the Beta test, the design planner reiterated that egi were designed to be a manifestation of a percentage of power taken from the primals and are intentionally designed to appear differently from the primal. As such, we aren't planning on changing the look of egi at higher levels.

We will however continue to take in your feedback when creating new egi that will be added in the future.

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I think the issue people have with this is FFXI uses the same concept. The avatars specifically offer you a fragment of their power, but what you get is a pet that lookx exactly the same as the prime avatar, just smaller.

I don't mind the egi looking different, but they should share more features in common with the primal they are associated with- For example, Garuda-egi only has two wings when the primal garuda has 4 - a significant design difference.

Departing from reality for a moment: I kinda wish SMN had been implemented more as a WoW druid than a WoW warlock, with each summon being your forms. You do your summon, Titan for example, and the camera swaps positions and you're controlling Titan directly while your character is basically just a minion to Titan; intangible, following it around, doin some finger wagglin to coincide with the attacks you use. Each "form" has it's own set of skills to allow it to perform whatever role it's intended for. If "you" die the summon vanishes, perspective shifts back to your actual character and you suffer 50% health loss and are stunned for 5 seconds, or somethin. All enmity your pet had generated is transferred back to you, and if you survive long enough to resummon, is again transferred back to your summon. That's probably incredibly broken.
This wouldn't work under the current game systems anyway and would probably be considered ridiculously OP being able to be a melee(Ifrit), ranged(Garuda), tank(Titan) and healer(Fairy) all in the same class.

Back to reality: I'd settle for current SMN/SCH to just let my pets behave properly... the fairies especially. If you try to manually use a fairy ability it snaps back into free-for-all mode and rattles off all its abilities at a rate that seems faster than should be possible -_- I can't even get it back into Steady before it just completely unloads at times.

like some people have said the job does not seem to be a summoner, you could have called this job something else and I would have no problem with it.
as summoner being a FF staple I don't know why they made it what it is right now but the fact that they think its what a smn should be is very disapointing

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Originally Posted by ParanoidHobo

Departing from reality for a moment: I kinda wish SMN had been implemented more as a WoW druid than a WoW warlock, with each summon being your forms. You do your summon, Titan for example, and the camera swaps positions and you're controlling Titan directly while your character is basically just a minion to Titan; intangible, following it around, doin some finger wagglin to coincide with the attacks you use. Each "form" has it's own set of skills to allow it to perform whatever role it's intended for.

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That's pretty much how they did it in FF X.

SMN right now doesn't have a lot that makes it unique from SCH. It's got fester, a rouse clone, and pets that do damage and... that's it, really? You just cast your DoTs and hit fester when it's off CD while your pet does its thing. Which, minus fester, is also what you do when soloing on SCH and ACN. It's just not very interesting or fun because it's just waiting on DoTs for the most part.

What I'd personally like to see SMN doing is gaining primals as actual attack skills that call out the primal(albeit at a reduced size) to do an attack then vanish, like the way Ultima uses them and like how they were in FFTA. Bring Carbies back as pets, maybe add lesser elementals as pets they can summon, and change their LB from meteor to carby or the primal corresponding to the summoned elemental's element coming out and using their signature attack.

I dunno, the armory system is really dumb and limits what can be done with jobs and skills and gear to make things fun and unique

Summoner will never change. The End. =(

I honestly just would like controlling egis to be easier.
Like macroing the pet abilities and commands (like having heel and steady in one macro together so im not mashing the heel command to get my egi to come back without trying to attack something while on Obey/Sic).

Also a customizable gambit system would be awesome even if it was just for a few attacks or only for 'Obey' command or even a completely separate command where you can choose when to use certain abilities and when to just have them AA.

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Originally Posted by Engineer

I like the idea of summoning the right summon for the right situations.

Leviathan egi - Best at single target damage. Only has single target dps attacks
Shiva egi - Best at aoe damage. Only has aoe/cone dps attacks.
Ramuh egi - uses dots every attack. Stacks up to 12. Does most damage in long fights.

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And this. Making each summon for a specific situation would be perfect for making the SMN more fun and prevent a bunch of only one type of summon floating around at specific levels and would encourage switching things up depending on the enemy/team comp. No BLM/BRD? Shiva. No MNK/DRG? Use Leviathan? Like doting all the things? Ramuh! Monsters are mostly physical/AoE based? Garuda! Monsters with defense? Ifrirt!

Also a support egi would be cool, like ones with dmg/debuffs or even time/demi magic...unless they're saving that for another class/job :D

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

We will however continue to take in your feedback when creating new egi that will be added in the future.

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Thanks although I am a little disappointed in the response. I remember the post on the Beta forums too. I honestly think it just comes down to detail and power of the egis. I dont think anyone would mind the egis looking less powerful than the primals because that does make sense for story reasons. And now that the game has been released it seems there has been a lot less complaints about primal size. I think the main complaint is the detail and overall look of the egis and how they aren't the major dmg from SMN.

Ifirt seems okay(but once you get Garuda becomes pointless) and Titian gives a slight feel for his respective primal but is very simplified and situational but thats not so bad. Garuda however just seems way too simplified. She barely resembles the primal and has nothing that makes her stand out which is disappointing as shes the most powerful one so far. Hopefully the other egis have more detail to them to make them stand out and look interesting as well as giving them more presecence. I'm excited to see Shiva's and Leviathan's. I really hope its like what Engineer is proposing because that would be just great for making all the egis viable.

Ok, I get it... Yoshi-P still doesn't like the designs we had in XI. Fine, I'll live, but you better make Shiva-Egi beautiful then!!!!!!!!!! Or heads will roll.. Moogle heads... I'm looking at you Good King Moggle Mog >.>

Any who... how about a comment from you guys on stat allocation? Could we please separate stat usage for SMN and SCH? I want to actively play both as my mains SMN1st SCH2nd, I really hate the idea of farming constantly for scrolls just to be at my best on both jobs. Could you please look into this?

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Originally Posted by Synra

I am sorry, but that is not acceptable. Summoner is an iconic FF job, and their summons have always been awesome. Getting them right is very important. In FFXIV, my summons should be a whole hell of a lot cooler than they are. They look like muppets.

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I'm glad you mentioned that because one of the things that I was really looking forward to in XIV was seeing how breathtaking the summons would be with a modern graphics engine. For an fan of summoner and the summons through all the FF games I have played this was a letdown. I started out thinking I would be a main summoner, and I ended up a main scholar instead. It's a lot more fun to play.

I'm not trying to fault the design team of the Egi either. They did a fine job with what they were tasked to do. I just think the overall game concept for summoner was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

That'd be like FFXI and people would hate that.

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So you'd rather them just disappear and have to be resummoned?

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

As was mentioned previously during the Beta test, the design planner reiterated that egi were designed to be a manifestation of a percentage of power taken from the primals and are intentionally designed to appear differently from the primal. As such, we aren't planning on changing the look of egi at higher levels.

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Perhaps a compromise is in order then. Why not change how Enkindle works? The current Egi is removed from battle and SMN sacrifices 20% HP/MP to summon a more pronounced version of the Primal that uses it signature move, then returns to the void. Summoner will get a much needed burst damage attack while allowing the job to return to it's roots in the purest form. Since FFVII, summons have been wonderful eye candy and this would allow FFXIV not to be the exception.

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Originally Posted by Demeos

My favorite version of the Summoner would be from FFX. You summoned, you buggered off, then you took direct control of the summoned creature. This is what I think the summoner class should be in this game. Not a pet.

Scholar and Arcanist can stay pet-centric. They're fine for the most part.

The Pros:

- One less character to render on screen so you they could up the detail of the summoned egi.

- Direct control means less chance of having half your dps on the wrong enemy or a random ability doing something that's detrimental to the group.

- Fewer abilities being cast means fewer spell/ability effects on screen at one time.

The Cons:

- No longer a pet job. Could still use pets as an arcanist though.

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I support this idea only if my character gets to sit/stand upon the summon during combat. :D

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

We discussed your feedback about the design of the egi with the development team. As was mentioned previously during the Beta test, the design planner reiterated that egi were designed to be a manifestation of a percentage of power taken from the primals and are intentionally designed to appear differently from the primal. As such, we aren't planning on changing the look of egi at higher levels.

We will however continue to take in your feedback when creating new egi that will be added in the future.

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I don't care about the size of egi's but I do care about how the class was designed and I wanted a summoner not a warlock.

When will the devs understand people just want summons that dont look dumb? And maybe a Summoner class that revolves around summoning instead of being a copy-pasta of WoW Warlock?

I was just hoping for something similar to the way the avatars were in FFXI. They werent massive, and they were still a portion of the summon's power. Meh, whatever. D:

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Originally Posted by paradigmfellow

What about the stats? Will that change?

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Yeah, that's really more of an issue than the size and looks of the egi (even if the egi look creepy imo).
It's really inconvenient that the stats are shared...

And yes, I do think that egi is kind of a dumb name for the summons .... >_>;; but that's neither here nor there.

The only good thing Hvinire's response did is that now I know not to invest time in equipping my summoner past standard gear. The current gameplay is not something I want to stick around with because that is not something a summoner does. Again no hard feelings at the people who enjoy the current version of the summoner class but bottom line is: IT IS NOT A SUMMONER! It just baffles me that you couldn't care less about your pet as a summoner.

Maybe they should change the summoner class to evoker instead, its more fitting to how the class is at the moment as all we seem to be able to call upon is some little elemental looking monster then introduced summoner as the next class which you could then call on the full power of the primal. Although i wont hold my breath SE has gone completely down hill since it changed from Squaresoft.

I don't understand how most people hate the detail of the summons and SE says "Oh well". Id rather these guys have delayed the job to make the avatars look more like SCH and ACN. SMN look bad. No one likes them.

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Originally Posted by Ventus

Also I would like to see summoner be less of a warlock DoT class and more of a well....summoner.

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Well, you can see alot of meta classes in here, though they are a bit different in the mechanics.
I agree with what you say. The summoner should have more abilities concerning his pet or mechanics that make it viable to change the summons during the fight.
The Job's name does not really tell you what he actually does. Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel that way.