Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

You mean a Stoneskin/Cureskin or a temporarily boost your max HP for any excess amount?

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Either way, one of the two would match with how self heals would function as mitigation. Warriors would either have a slightly boosted HP pool to sponge with or a shield to absorb some of the damage. Like I said earlier, I'm not for making it so Warriors can take a hit "like" Pally can. I want it so that the mechanic of self heals either matches a slightly higher portion of incoming damage or is able to be used on non-spike-damage periods to build a small buffer to absorb a little of the damage.

Either would work if the idea is that Warriors are meat shields that just sponge damage and Pally reduces it. Still, if we're going to keep bringing that horrible word "balance" into the fray, then if the two classes fight the same boss without external heals they should die at roughly the same time. That would exhibit balance in what I understand the word to mean.

Both tank classes need to have similar survivability. That's the root of the problem; that is, the fact that they don't have anywhere near similar survivability is the problem. When it comes to survivability, damage mitigation is by far the most effective method. Self-healing and avoidance aren't nearly as reliable and have never been an adequate substitute for mitigation.

For baseline mitigation, warriors currently have pretty much just the armor off their backs. This amounts to approximately 25-30% damage reduction. Paladins have an additional 20% plus the ability to block (worth a rough estimate of 5% physical mitigation). A paladin's baseline mitigation is nearly twice as high as a warrior's even before adding the plethora of powerful cooldowns that further widens the gap between the two tanks.

There are some, even amongst those who agree that the warrior class needs buffs, who seem to think that the survivability has to be from sources other than mitigation because paladins somehow have a monopoly on this mechanic. This is never going to be possible. There's no realistic way to give the warrior similar survivability without giving them any additional mitigation at all. You'd have to give warriors so much self-healing that it would be completely absurd, probably enabling them to solo dungeons, FATEs and other pre-endgame content. Even then, their survivability would still be unreliable compared to the safe, dependable damage reduction mechanic.

Paladins will always have more mitigation due to Shield Oath. They'll always be the mitigation tank. However, in order for the two tank classes to be remotely equal and capable of tanking the same content without one being at a huge disadvantage and thus shunned by those who pick the proverbial team, there need to be some damage reduction abilities available to warriors. Something as effective as Rampart/Sentinel/Bulwark.

Ýou can't make an effective tank that has practically no mitigation and gets all of its survivability from self-healing. People tend to point to WoW and Death Knights as an example of a self-sustaining tank, but WoW's tank classes are nowhere near as different as FFXIV's. Not even slightly. They all have baseline mitigation within ~10% of eachother, and they all have relatively equal defensive cooldowns. The difference is in minor mechanics; DK self-healing compensates for the lack of block, and Blizzard would never be so stupid as to try and make a class with the raw survivability of a fury warrior, throw in a bigger HP pool, and then attempt to give them self-healing as the only substitute for the enormous difference in survivability between this and other tanks. I like to think that no competent developer would be so thoughtless and out of touch with MMORPG basics.

I don't even want to imagine what went through the minds of the developers who thought that they could give one tank class literally no mitigation beyond the defense stat on their armor, give the other half a dozen different sources of mitigation, and think that they could possibly be equally capable of tanking. It's gross incompetence, inexperience, and a blatant lack of playtesting. It's one of the most glaring and damaging lapses in class balance design that I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

A paladin's baseline mitigation is nearly twice as high as a warrior's

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I'm pretty sure thats wrong. Shield Oath's reduction occurs after Defense, not together. If it stacked, then Shield Oath would add ~50% more effective health at 40% mitigation from Defense + Protect(with ever increasing returns as Defense gets higher, in other words, PLDs would scale better with gear compared to WAR).

Anyone wanna test the damage done before and after Shield Oath? Keep in mind that damage variance is +/- 5%, so you would need to record more than a couple hits.

Let's not forget, defense is worthless and you're not exactly getting boatloads of it every time you upgrade gear. A few points, yay. That's not stopping me from taking more damage.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

Ýou can't make an effective tank that has practically no mitigation and gets all of its survivability from self-healing. People tend to point to WoW and Death Knights as an example of a self-sustaining tank, but WoW's tank classes are nowhere near as different as FFXIV's. Not even slightly. They all have baseline mitigation within ~10% of eachother, and they all have relatively equal defensive cooldowns. The difference is in minor mechanics; DK self-healing compensates for the lack of block, and Blizzard would never be so stupid as to try and make a class with the raw survivability of a fury warrior, throw in a bigger HP pool, and then attempt to give them self-healing as the only substitute for the enormous difference in survivability between this and other tanks. I like to think that no competent developer would be so thoughtless and out of touch with MMORPG basics.

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This makes so much sense it hurts. It also sums up how I feel on the matter and second the sentiment. That being said, prepare yourself for the stream of people who will predictably misuse the word "homogenization" in a poor attempt to argue against your statement.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

Let's not forget, defense is worthless and you're not exactly getting boatloads of it every time you upgrade gear. A few points, yay. That's not stopping me from taking more damage.

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This is flat out wrong. Damage reduction gains from Defense is linear. Every point is better than the last.

Most MMOs give a linear amount of armor/defense as the item level rises, but apply diminishing returns to the mitigation gained per point. This curbs the ever increasing returns phenomenon.
In FFXIV, there is diminishing returns on the amount of defense gained as the item level rises, but the mitigation gained per point is linear.
The effect is the same in both cases, the difference is that 1 point of Defense in FFXIV is worth a helluva lot more than 1 point of Armor in other MMOs.

25 Defense is going to make Warrior da bes

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

This is flat out wrong. Damage reduction gains from Defense is linear. Every point is better than the last.

Most MMOs give a linear amount of armor/defense as the item level rises, but apply diminishing returns to the mitigation gained per point. This curbs the ever increasing returns phenomenon.
In FFXIV, there is diminishing returns on the amount of defense gained as the item level rises, but the mitigation gained per point is linear.
The effect is the same in both cases, the difference is that 1 point of Defense in FFXIV is worth a helluva lot more than 1 point of Armor in other MMOs.

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I reckon the point was that going from freshly-dinged 50 to full Darklight nets you something like 30 defense, 700ish to 730ish. This does not make a noteworthy difference, and thus warrior damage mitigation pretty much doesn't scale with gear. Nor does anyone else's, but thay's irrelevant. Going from Darklight to the next tier will bump your defense up to 740. Some people have been insisting that getting endgame gear will somehow make warriors viable.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Except that WAR doesn't do more damage than PLD. It's a myth that's been propagated by people that don't know what they're talking about.

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well, if we wear DD accessories，we could deal ok dmg, i just crit for 950 on my warrior with dd gear on garuda, without defiance of course.

so this class definitely need to be adjusted..

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Originally Posted by hola

well, if we wear DD accessories，we could deal ok dmg, i just crit for 950 on my warrior with dd gear on garuda, without defiance of course.

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A PLD with Sword Oath hits as hard as a WAR without Defiance. Even when they're going DPS mode, WAR doesn't deal more damage.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

A PLD with Sword Oath hits as hard as a WAR without Defiance. Even when they're going DPS mode, WAR doesn't deal more damage.

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if both in dd gear, warrior definitely do much more dmg than pld, pld's dmg dont scale.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

I reckon the point was that going from freshly-dinged 50 to full Darklight nets you something like 30 defense, 700ish to 730ish. This does not make a noteworthy difference, and thus warrior damage mitigation pretty much doesn't scale with gear. Nor does anyone else's, but thay's irrelevant. Going from Darklight to the next tier will bump your defense up to 740. Some people have been insisting that getting endgame gear will somehow make warriors viable.

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1 defense = 0.044% damage reduction
Full AF1 + accessories + protect = 799 defense = 35.15% damage reduction
Full Darklight + accessories + protect = 842 defense = 37.04% damage reduction

That is equivelent to a 6% increase in eHP. If that isn't a "noteworthy difference", then by that logic, the difference between WAR and PAL outside of cooldowns isn't noteworthy either. And the whole "a paladin's baseline mitigation is nearly twice as high as a warrior's" is gross exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by hola

if both in dd gear, warrior definitely do much more dmg than pld, pld's dmg dont scale.

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Where do you get the idea that PLD damage doesn't scale?

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

PLDs were given huge buffs to their single-target damage between beta phases because the devs want them to be on par. The WAR was given buffs to their survivability between beta phases, too, for the same reasons. Its just that the survivability buffs to the WAR wasn't good enough.

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Did we play the same game at beta? War/MRD wasn't even available to test until P3 of beta. Paladin was available at P1. so war being 'adjusted between phases' is utter nonsense. Furthermore no end-game content was available during either phase. any and all balancing attempts were done pre-30. and here I would agree. war/pld are easily interchangeable for this content.

with paladin, they were able to collect lots of data. it was the only tank available, so they were able to balance it more easily.

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Both classes can MT. but that doesn't mean they should MT. as a WAR main, i can say with confidence that the skill cap for WAR is so absurdly high compared to PLD I recommend any new players coming up through my FC to play paladin before warrior, simply because all the gear is also usable on WAR. they can have some fun on WAR once they have their real tank class completed.

War generates more single target enmity than paladin. but the advantage is only slight. I can consistently pull hate from PLD tanks when i'm trying. However, there is 0 point in doing this. and in fact, it's extremely dangerous.

anyone who thinks WAR is meant to be an AoE tank has not played WAR. Flash >>>>> overpower. overpower requires a coordinated group to help herd. the best a WAR can hope for is to be able to steel cyclone => infuriate => Steel Cyclone and pray that's enough hate to hold through 2-3 ticks of Regen on the group to herd for overpower spam. but doing this comes with risks as well. as a MT (on something big) you will not be spamming SC. simply because you need to save Infuriate for doing double IBs to recover from those big hits. on a good day, I can heal for ~3k with two IBs back to back. coupled with Thrill of Battle/second wind. as well as Berserk/Bloodbath. You can recover a lot of health very quickly. in a pinch, you can also take Convalesence and Mantra. with Infuriated status you increase your healing received by a large amount. Testing with a WHM in my FC, they were able to get ~4k-5k crit heals on my war.

PLD has two abilities to help generate enmity off of GCD. Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn. War gets Brutal swing. Brutal swing applies a stun, which means on some bosses you can't use it, otherwise you risk stuns being resisted when they are needed and wipe the group.

I have to agree with Faction's earlier posts. There is literally nothing (of importance) that war can do better than paladin. the only thing WAR can do better, is generate enmity on a single target. but paladin's don't regularly lose hate. so this is a wasted advantage.

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What War Needs:

Better/more intuitive stat allocation. War desperately needs both STR and VIT. Given there is a lot more VIT than STR on most tanking pieces, WAR loses a lot. the STR is needed to help with the reactionary heals. I recently respec from full STR to full VIT. I lost about 300 on my IB self heal.

Risk/reward adjustment. War has a high skill cap compared to paladin. we have to manage more rotations. keep debuffs up, self buffs on, know when to heal, know how to react, etc. the margin of error for a war vs a pld is much higher. But there is no reward for this. a great war is just as good as a mediocre paladin. there's no benefit, other than bragging rights, to being great at your job as a war.

More intuitive rotations. Every other combo rotation I use Storm's eye for the debuff. between that I need to make a decision. do I heal myself with Storm's Path? or do I use Butcher's block for more damage/enmity? Given the amount of overcure I typically recieve as a tank, I usually butcher's block.


Buffs I would like to see to war:

Enmity bonus + healing on Steel Cyclone.

SC used to be blatantly overpowered in 1.0. now it is situational at best. given you need Infuriated, I think this ability needs some love.

Increased Healing Capacity

A lot of time my self-healing is wasted. Storm's path heal is very nearly useless. IB is great, but given the amount of overcure I can't take full advantage of it.

Storm's path heal could use a buff. rather than give an up front heal, i'd rather it give us a self buff/regen. this would give more incentive to include it in rotations.

It would also be nice if IB applied a shield instead of a heal. this would allow us to use it even when we are at max health. this would just increase the number of situations it is usable in thus improving our viability by introducing more situations we can help out our healers.

Thrill of Battle=>Stoneskin=>IB would then generate roughly 3k damage mitigated. a double IB would bring us close to 5k. this would help tremendously. and honestly might be a little overpowered. but given how bad we are right now...i dont' see a problem with that.

WAR gained their 15% healing from Wrath stacks in the final release. So yes, they were adjusted.

And I'm just sitting here in my easy chair supping on a glass of Sweet Redemption.

I think the vintage is called "I Told You So"

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

My take-away from this is, clearly the Devs are better at using Warriors, most likely because they aren't trying to use them like a PLD, and as far as they are concerned, they are a good class.

I tend to agree, I think all the whining about not being able to Main Tank coils is pointless because none of them have the level appropriate gear that they SHOULD have before even stepping foot into it. Once Crystal Tower is added and they have the appropriate gear, you'll see them MTing coils. They also have said that it is more difficult to be a good WAR, so "showing off" is if you're a WAR AND good, as an unskilled player will most likely not be a very good WAR.

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I knew a very high level developer on the now defunct Star Wars: Galaxies. He was promoted from a pretty low position when they did the big purge after NGE. I'll never forget what he told me, and that is that most developers are blinded by how they expect players to play the game they designed vs the reality of the boundaries of the game at it stands.



If Yoshi thinks the current game is Hard Mode Ifrit or farming currency, it would stand to reason that they think Warriors are great. Hell, Paladins are stun bots there.

However, the high end player base (which I am not a part of) thinks the game is currently about Coil. They are probably further along than the devs think they should be for their gear level. But still, they progress, and as part of that progress, they only want to bring along a single class to tank for them because they need a class that can take hits. Big hits. Using long cool down abilities and innate mitigation.

Are they pushing too hard? Maybe. But that's what cutting edge content guilds do. Lesser players will, in general, look up to what those players are accomplishing and model their builds and configs based off of that so they can tackle much easier content with much more ease.

I guess all I am saying is that Yoshi can ignore the best players' perceptions at the game's own peril. In games like this, at some point, perception becomes reality. It takes too long to build a character, and once a class has been left out long enough it becomes hard to catch up.

The last thing I'd mention is that I don't believe for a minute that the Devs are better at playing this game than the best players are. That's just the natural order of things. You wouldn't expect a sports doctor to be better than an olympian at a foot race, and you wouldn't expect a mechanic to be the best race car driver. So no, I do not believe the devs are better at playing Warriors than people who have made an occupation at main tanking for hard mode guilds for a decade.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

Ýou can't make an effective tank that has practically no mitigation and gets all of its survivability from self-healing. People tend to point to WoW and Death Knights as an example of a self-sustaining tank, but WoW's tank classes are nowhere near as different as FFXIV's. Not even slightly. They all have baseline mitigation within ~10% of eachother, and they all have relatively equal defensive cooldowns. The difference is in minor mechanics; DK self-healing compensates for the lack of block, and Blizzard would never be so stupid as to try and make a class with the raw survivability of a fury warrior, throw in a bigger HP pool, and then attempt to give them self-healing as the only substitute for the enormous difference in survivability between this and other tanks. I like to think that no competent developer would be so thoughtless and out of touch with MMORPG basics.

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While this might be true right now, I haven't play since WotLK it is however not completely accurate. In Vanilla WoW back in 2004 there were 3 tanks, Protection Warriors, Protection Paladins and Feral-bear Druids. However only protection warriors were viable tanks, it was a combination of bad mechanics (prot paladins had no snap aggro) and incredibly poor itemization (since feral druids could only wear leather and there was no tank-oriented leather gear) that would take them AN ENTIRE EXPANSION to fix. Yes as a matter of fact feral and protection tanks weren't viable until the release of TBC 2007 a whopping 3 years later, it took them that long to fix this.

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Originally Posted by hola

if both in dd gear, warrior definitely do much more dmg than pld, pld's dmg dont scale.

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Both classes have similar potency attacks. "Pld's dmg don't scale?" Um yes it does. There's nothing that would make it not scale. Especially since autoattacks scale tremendously and most of their damage comes from autoattacks.

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y: some were asking isn't warrior weaker/harder than paladin?
y: in development environment devs are really strong with marauder
y: so I think you'l find them out soon
y: they are really strong
y: for those that really want to show off, i recommend warrior

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Further translation of this is: For those that want to show others they managed to either get carried or did it unnecessarily hard, i recommend warrior.

Yoshida, I'm a paladin then when they sucked and I am a paladin now while they are beast, but seriously just balance the damn classes, for crying out loud! Do you need someone from blizzard to come give you balancing lessons? Like Wangstrong said, Warrior needs MITIGATION. All they are right now are lancers with too much damn HP. HP doesn't save the day.

I actually said this exact thing in every raid I went to in WoW: HP IS A CRUTCH. and it still is. I have less of it but am still way better for tanking purposes. You rely on having a lot of hp but fail on your avoidance, for ARR block and parry, and mitigation, you just become a healing liability, plain and simple. What you can also do is give a Base increase to healing recieve while in defiance, not just for each stack of wrath, because as soon as the warrior loses that wrath from a move, he becomes a squishy healer hell, and it isn't even enough to begin with.

All we need is some moves that do unmitigated damage that would instant kill a PLD and everyone will see value of WAR again lol. But yeah, I want our self heal to be stronger cause it's a joke at this point.

The fact that the Mitigation Tank actually has a Healer as a requirement and the Selfheal/HP Tank has the other Tank as a requirement, seems like a pretty good indicator of what they "think" ....

Other than that.. I wonder how many people have rerolled allready t.t

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

Yes, Warrior will be able (i hope so) to be main tank in Bahamuts Coil with Crystal Tower Equip.
But, Paladin is able NOW to be MT in Bahamuts Coil.

And that means, with Crystal Tower Equip, Paladin will be even better as MT, and fact is, PLD is less difficult to heal, that means less MP cost for healer and that mean PLD>WAR.

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But if WAR can tank it..WHY..DOES...IT...MATTER. Will it be easier with a PLD? Sure, can a WAR do it? Yes...then so what? PLD can take a hit better then WAR, so long as WAR is able to actually tank things I dont care though. I've met tons of terrible PLDs who thought they could tank just because "Hey i'm a PLD".

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

But if WAR can tank it..WHY..DOES...IT...MATTER. Will it be easier with a PLD? Sure, can a WAR do it? Yes...then so what? PLD can take a hit better then WAR, so long as WAR is able to actually tank things I dont care though. I've met tons of terrible PLDs who thought they could tank just because "Hey i'm a PLD".

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Because Paladins are overpowered. They can main tank Coil with level 70 gear mixed with multiple pieces of level 60 gear. This means they are skipping an entire tier of gear.

Don't want Warriors to be buffed? Fine. But then you have to nerf the hell out of Paladins to bring them down to the Warrior level.

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

But if WAR can tank it..WHY..DOES...IT...MATTER. Will it be easier with a PLD? Sure, can a WAR do it? Yes...then so what? PLD can take a hit better then WAR, so long as WAR is able to actually tank things I dont care though. I've met tons of terrible PLDs who thought they could tank just because "Hey i'm a PLD".

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Tell me something,

What is better for a Group, a Paladin Tank who CAN MT Coil RIGHT NOW, and so with Crystal Twoer Equip he can even Tank better, Or a Warrior, who Need tons of more Heal and have more Spikes, and a Selfheal that is just a bad joke. and also Warrior cant MT Coil, at least not yet, maybee with Crystal Tower Equip, but still, Paladin is better. way better.

So, for the Group ist the better choice to use a Paladin Tank. AND THAT DOES MATTER!!!!!

Let the People the choice, Warrior or Paladin, when both are equal then ist ok, then you can say "Bring the People and not the Class"

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

But if WAR can tank it..WHY..DOES...IT...MATTER. Will it be easier with a PLD? Sure, can a WAR do it? Yes...then so what?

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That is sort of a silly question. Lets imagine you want to play a Paladin, but teleportation costs on that class are 5 times higher than every other class in the game. You can still teleport. It's harder for you than your peers, sure, but it's still do-able. Now, suddenly, there is a new place with great gear and amazing content you can only reach by Teleporting there. On top of that, to obtain this gear, you must teleport in and out frequently.

Yes, you absolutely can still participate in this facet of the game. But you stink at it because your peers can do it easier and more often. You will finish this content slower, or be dependent on your friends to let you hitch a ride on their teleports.

Does this sound to you like a satisfactory gaming experience? Would you (most likely) simply decide to teleport over as a different class?

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

But if WAR can tank it..WHY..DOES...IT...MATTER. Will it be easier with a PLD? Sure, can a WAR do it? Yes...then so what? PLD can take a hit better then WAR, so long as WAR is able to actually tank things I dont care though. I've met tons of terrible PLDs who thought they could tank just because "Hey i'm a PLD".

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What does incredibly obvious and massive class imbalance matter, guys? What does it matter?!

I never thought of that before!

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Originally Posted by Feathery

While this might be true right now, I haven't play since WotLK it is however not completely accurate. In Vanilla WoW back in 2004 there were 3 tanks, Protection Warriors, Protection Paladins and Feral-bear Druids. However only protection warriors were viable tanks, it was a combination of bad mechanics (prot paladins had no snap aggro) and incredibly poor itemization (since feral druids could only wear leather and there was no tank-oriented leather gear) that would take them AN ENTIRE EXPANSION to fix. Yes as a matter of fact feral and protection tanks weren't viable until the release of TBC 2007 a whopping 3 years later, it took them that long to fix this.

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and not even on TBC druids are paladins were able to tank RAIDS , heroics and trash yeah but druids and paladins were not able to tank raid bosses. (maybe druids in kara....)

SE needs to fix Warriors and pronto , because by the time they fix warriors the ppl that wanted to tank rerolled Paladin....

ppl that rolled warrior , rolled that job for TANK , let them TANK, no1 wants to roll a class that is the offtank , adds tank ...or the option if there are no paladins avaliable.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

and not even on TBC druids are paladins were able to tank RAIDS , heroics and trash yeah but druids and paladins were not able to tank raid bosses. (maybe druids in kara....)

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So it's OK that a game released in 2013 has amateurish balance problems because a game from 2007 did too?

Here I thought you were supposed to learn from the mistakes of those that came before you.

That was years ago and Blizzard were inventing the wheel. There's no excuse for repeating a mistake that was corrected long ago.

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Originally Posted by Surfie

Don't want Warriors to be buffed? Fine. But then you have to nerf the hell out of Paladins to bring them down to the Warrior level.

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I've seen this sentiment a few times. Disclaimer - I am not at end game (obviously), however, I have been at end game in several other MMOs. Those of you with righteous indignation for a class that is the exact single-target tanking equivalent of another class have a narrow view on combat-oriented co-op video games (isn't that funny? : D ). Take, for instance, Everquest original. Ask any EQ raider who the best tank is, they will immediately say Warrior without hesitating. Sony built Wars to be the best single target tank.

There are 2 other tanks in EQ, Paladin and Shadowknight. Can they tank end-game stuff as well as Warriors? Not even close. Can they tank group content as well as Warriors? Yes, some would say they do it better. Before you get red-faced, I do think Warriors are currently underpowered.

Aside: A lot of really cool and great ideas have been thrown around here, and I do sincerely believe that it would be possible to make a tank that is all about massive piles of hit points, something that was brought up before was that warriors would get 1 % increase in healing on them for each 1% they are away from maximum health - so at 75% hp, they get a 25% bonus, at 10% hp, they get a 90% bonus. That would scale away overhealing and other stuff, etc. I'm not a dev, nor do I have the time to think of the best way to do it, but I think it could work somehow.

Now, my main point is, YES there is such thing as a tank in an MMO that is not intended to be the main "raid" (large group) tank. When I was leading raids in EQ I would have been laughed out of ventrillo for suggesting a Shadowknight MT an expansion boss. But there are plently of Shadowknights wandering around because they are fun to play, compete on a small group level (excel even), and they have specific roles in raid events.

WARs need a fix, pretty badly, but it doesn't need to be "become as good as a PLD at main tanking". I just wanted to suggest a new line of thought - because PLDs are the main tanks of FFXIV right now, and I'd love to see two things: 1 - content is implemented/changed to give WAR a more specific role that allows them to exceed the PLDs usefulness in certain situations | 2 - WARs recieve some more fire-power, so the increased healing inverse health ratio idea, or something like all of their attacks (no matter what) always heal them for 30% of the damage they do, effectively giving them a pleasant stream of incoming health.

Iunno, open up your minds!

Wrong, i was Paladin MT in my Guild in TBC, and i did a great Job, Druid dont know, but Paladin was really a good Tank with TBC. before TBC only Warrior was Tank, after TBC the People could choose, witch playstayle they like more as a Tank, Paladin, Druid, Warrior later DrakKnight, it was wayne, all of them could tank.

Here, SE Say we have 2 Tank Class, Paladin and Warrior, but right now ist more like : Tank and a half ass backed tank

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

and not even on TBC druids are paladins were able to tank RAIDS , heroics and trash yeah but druids and paladins were not able to tank raid bosses. (maybe druids in kara....)

SE needs to fix Warriors and pronto , because by the time they fix warriors the ppl that wanted to tank rerolled Paladin....

ppl that rolled warrior , rolled that job for TANK , let them TANK, no1 wants to roll a class that is the offtank , adds tank ...or the option if there are no paladins avaliable.

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Druids were superior in Sunwell to Warriors. There were certain gimmicks in TBC that made Warrior tanks preferred though such as Illidan. Paladins were better for heroics and for Felmyst. But once WOTLK hit, Warriors became the worst tank and have pretty much been the worst tank since then.

The actual design intention during Vanilla and TBC was for Warriors to be the best tank. It didn't always work out so they had to put certain gimmicks such as fears, etc.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I've seen this sentiment a few times. Disclaimer - I am not at end game (obviously), however, I have been at end game in several other MMOs. Those of you with righteous indignation for a class that is the exact single-target tanking equivalent of another class have a narrow view on combat-oriented co-op video games (isn't that funny? : D ). Take, for instance, Everquest original. Ask any EQ raider who the best tank is, they will immediately say Warrior without hesitating. Sony built Wars to be the best single target tank.

There are 2 other tanks in EQ, Paladin and Shadowknight. Can they tank end-game stuff as well as Warriors? Not even close. Can they tank group content as well as Warriors?

Going to edit for more to say, hang on : D

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"It's a co op game guys work together!!!"

You know who can work together vastly better than a paladin and a warrior? 2 paladins. Plz don't post until you play the game.

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Originally Posted by Faction

"It's a co op game guys work together!!!"

You know who can work together vastly better than a paladin and a warrior? 2 paladins. Plz don't post until you play the game.

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Hey, play nice you *deleted so I don't look like a fool*. Maybe you shouldn't open up your thoughts to the world until you've learned to communicate in a pleasant manner. I didn't speak to any of the end-game mechanics in any sort of specific way, so there is no reason for you to attack me.

Also, thanks for quoting me before I was done typing out my thoughts. Classy.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Hey, play nice you *deleted so I don't look like a fool*. Maybe you shouldn't open up your thoughts to the world until you've learned to communicate in a pleasant manner. I didn't speak to any of the end-game mechanics in any sort of specific way, so there is no reason for you to attack me.

Also, thanks for quoting me before I was done typing out my thoughts. Classy.

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Your thoughts are outdated and stupid. You want one class to act as main tank and one class to sit in 4 man dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Hey, play nice you *deleted so I don't look like a fool*. Maybe you shouldn't open up your thoughts to the world until you've learned to communicate in a pleasant manner. I didn't speak to any of the end-game mechanics in any sort of specific way, so there is no reason for you to attack me.

Also, thanks for quoting me before I was done typing out my thoughts. Classy.

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In her defense, you are a Paladin talking about Warrior problems, and justifying them using a 20 year old game. There are reasons for her to be upset.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrK

In her defense, you are a Paladin talking about Warrior problems, and justifying them using a 20 year old game. There are reasons for her to be upset.

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No, I think it would be possible to have one tank as a main tank, and another tank that specializes in off-tanking mechanics, or some other aspect. I also stated I think WARs need a fix.

Also, don't you think a 20 year old game (its just nearing 14 btw) would have some credence in viable game-play just based on the fact that its been around for so long?

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

WARs need a fix, pretty badly, but it doesn't need to be "become as good as a PLD at main tanking". I just wanted to suggest a new line of thought - because PLDs are the main tanks of FFXIV right now, and I'd love to see two things: 1 - content is implemented/changed to give WAR a more specific role that allows them to exceed the PLDs usefulness in certain situations | 2 - WARs recieve some more fire-power, so the increased healing inverse health ratio idea, or something like all of their attacks (no matter what) always heal them for 30% of the damage they do, effectively giving them a pleasant stream of incoming health.

Iunno, open up your minds!

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SE Need to fix Warrior.

Increase the 15+Heal on 20% and put it on Defiance (Palas take 20%less dmg, we take 20% more heal all the time, sounds fair i think)
Increase Bloodbath to 150% for Warrior Only
Increase Storms Path to 200%
Increase Inner BEast to 400%

Then, the Healer will feel a Diffrence, becuase right now the healer feels a shit if we use Bloodbath, or StormsPath because the heal is just a bad joke.
Also Inner Beast, we Need 12,5sec to build it up, thats way to Long for only 800 Heals, i know, some ppl can 2000+ selfheal, but for that u Need to use Convalcence and the Berserk, and they have 2min and 90sec CD, so.

i just dont understand why some of the pld buddies trying to get war gimped.

do you want a warrior in your group or another pld need rolling weapon against you?