Remove AOE Toggle

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Just re-posting these posts since some posters in this thread seem to be completely ignoring the blatantly erroneous concern of the OP in their "moar FFXI in XIV" campaign. In addition, I will also add to the voice of reason and confirm I also have no trouble with the AOE toggle button taking up space as the button functions perfectly fine in its other uses when not selecting a spell on your hot bar.

Situation as described by OP is false and a non-issue. This thread should be renamed to: Mages are OP so please remove AOE toggle. Or if you prefer: I liked FFXI, so please make spells just like that game. Call a spade a spade.

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I believe it should be called "AoE spam makes playing mage classes completely mindless". Who cares about the button? AoE spells with no real MP or enmity consequences. So DEEP.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

I believe it should be called "AoE spam makes playing mage classes completely mindless". Who cares about the button? AoE spells with no real MP or enmity consequences. So DEEP.

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That's a great opinion. You should start a thread about it instead of arguing that point in this thread which had nothing to do with what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

That's a great opinion. You should start a thread about it instead of arguing that point in this thread which had nothing to do with what you are talking about.

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Ah, my bad. I mistook you for someone who actually read the posts in between OP's and the last page or two.

After reading the letter from the producer and seeing a possible hint at reworking the AOE mechanism, I'm kind of worried about them keeping the toggle in and the problem snowballing. They mentioned adjusting recast and range for spells when aoe or single target. Could you imagine healing and having to aoe heal but all of a sudden you get a 20 sec cd on your only heal and the tank dies because you couldn't heal anymore?

I really hope when they make the adjustment to actions they just split the spells, I mean really, it's just silly. The toggle is an inconvenience, waste of a button (yes I know it's shared with BRs but let's be real, BRs are going to be changed to be more streamlined), and makes things like healing utterly mindless.

They also mentioned changing the way the action bar works and adjusting actions appropriately. Their changes could minimize the action points problem so many people seem to be concerned about if they removed the toggle.

This is the first game I've ever played where people are begging to be gimped.

There's nothing wrong with the Toggle. It's one of the few features that SE got right with this game. Adding -ga spells is more limiting than a toggle. The current mage classes don't focus on JUST curing, or JUST nuking, or JUST buffin/debuffing, and the toggle makes juggling all of these a lot easier, and a lot more feasible than it would be if we had two - 5 slots being taken up by unnecessary spells.

It sounds to me like people just want -ga spells to foster their XI nostalgia. Stop trying to turn this game into FFXI, kthxbai.

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

This is the first game I've ever played where people are begging to be gimped.

There's nothing wrong with the Toggle. It's one of the few features that SE got right with this game. Adding -ga spells is more limiting than a toggle. The current mage classes don't focus on JUST curing, or JUST nuking, or JUST buffin/debuffing, and the toggle makes juggling all of these a lot easier, and a lot more feasible than it would be if we had two - 5 slots being taken up by unnecessary spells.

It sounds to me like people just want -ga spells to foster their XI nostalgia. Stop trying to turn this game into FFXI, kthxbai.

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Sounds to me like you just want to be able to play CON without actually having to think. It has nothing to do with FFXI.

And kthxbai? What are you a preteen?

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Sounds to me like you just want to be able to play CON without actually having to think. It has nothing to do with FFXI.

And kthxbai? What are you a preteen?

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So let me get this straight, having an additional slot being taken up by a spell that does the same exact thing that the current spells do = making the class challenging? Removing the toggle won't make anything challenging, it will just mean that you will be able to equip less spells to your action bar.

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Originally Posted by Ava

AOE Toggle right now is an inconvenience, and it consumes an entire button on the controller. This button could be used for many more important things like cycling through target modes, or toggle battle regimens. With the redesigning of the combat classes/jobs/roles/specializations/whateverpeoplewanttocallthem, I think that would be a good time for something like this.

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Actually on the controller that button is context-specific. When your action bar isn't up it's the emote menu button. When the action bar is up it stacks commands for battle regimens. When selecting a target for spells that have AoE potential it toggles AoE. It's really not taking up any space that isn't use for others things.

However adding -ga spells to your bar WOULD take up precious space, unnecessarily so mind you.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Actually on the controller that button is context-specific. When your action bar isn't up it's the emote menu button. When the action bar is up it stacks commands for battle regimens. When selecting a target for spells that have AoE potential it toggles AoE. It's really not taking up any space that isn't use for others things.

However adding -ga spells to your bar WOULD take up precious space, unnecessarily so mind you.

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Your post makes perfect sense, but you don't seem to understand that since -ga spells were in XI, they need to be implemented in XIV in the exact same way, and the current feature which serves the same purpose more efficiently should be done away with. That way I feel more like I'm playing Final Fantasy XI.

If -ga spells are implemented into XIV, I would hope that they would be more interesting than AoE versions of the spells that we all ready have. Example, they could be spells that two mages can cast together after gaining a buff from completing a battle regimen.

It's obvious that people want them, but getting rid of perfectly functioning battle mechanics to introduce them is just backwards.

The only -ra and -ga spells we need are the renaming of II and III spells. Fire II becomes Fira, Fire III becomes Firga, Shock II becomes Shockra. Unless they have plans on letting you use EVERY single spell you learned without adding it to your action bar (the mini-menu in FFXI), removing aoe toggle and adding a copy of every single spell would be so very bad.

You gotta remember this game has very different mechanics for skill and spell usage than in FFXI. you cant just do everything your class/job can do as a mage. you should find right now that you cant set all your skills, and it continues on until R50. you cant set everything now, you wont be able to set everything at all if they split the spells into separate single target and aoe spells.

And unless they say they are going to get rid of the ac system, it is only speculation and 'hope' that they might possibly do away with it. so until then, this desire to have an aoe copy of every spell is a bad idea.

I don't really care about FFXI, if I wanted to play XI, I would. I want the AOE toggle out because there's no real argument against it and it's a basic mechanic that exists in all MMOs, and it works. MMOs have separate spells for AOE and single target spells for a reason, it's to encourage decision making. You people bringing up action points are arguing ONE slot, really? Are you serious? One slot is going to kill it for you?

Name them completely different for all I care, name AOE Fire "Firestorm" or "Rain of Fire", I don't care. Name AOE Cure "Arrows of Light" or whatever, honestly, I don't care. The point is, FFXIV is the only game that lets you AOE -anything-. It was a risk and clearly there is a fair amount of people that believe it was a failed experiment. Several people have brought up valid concerns but saying things like "lol u jus wanna play ffxi looser kthxbye" is just stupid.

They wouldn't even have to do away with the action point system. They could just adjust the cost of spells to make room for the AOE versions. Action points aren't really a valid argument, there are more than enough ways to tackle that issue since the whole system in it's current incarnation is far from perfect.

You guys have no idea what the new changes to classes/job system is going to be... Please hold off game breaking suggestions and ripping each others throats out till you see what it is. Maybe the jobs wont have aoe toggle... Maybe it something totally different.

I mean I get that people have nothing better to do than to speculate over the changes and things to be changed since the update is a whole another month away but seriously just wait and see first.

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Originally Posted by Ava

I don't really care about FFXI, if I wanted to play XI, I would. I want the AOE toggle out because there's no real argument against it and it's a basic mechanic that exists in all MMOs, and it works. MMOs have separate spells for AOE and single target spells for a reason, it's to encourage decision making. You people bringing up action points are arguing ONE slot, really? Are you serious? One slot is going to kill it for you?

Name them completely different for all I care, name AOE Fire "Firestorm" or "Rain of Fire", I don't care. Name AOE Cure "Arrows of Light" or whatever, honestly, I don't care. The point is, FFXIV is the only game that lets you AOE -anything-. It was a risk and clearly there is a fair amount of people that believe it was a failed experiment. Several people have brought up valid concerns but saying things like "lol u jus wanna play ffxi looser kthxbye" is just stupid.

They wouldn't even have to do away with the action point system. They could just adjust the cost of spells to make room for the AOE versions. Action points aren't really a valid argument, there are more than enough ways to tackle that issue since the whole system in it's current incarnation is far from perfect.

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So you're saying you want them to be separate spells just because other MMOs do it?

With the toggle, I still have the decision to choose whether or not I'm gonna AoE, it's EXACTLY the same as what it would be like if you split it into different spells, except without the DRAWBACK of losing slots on my action bar.

When I'm in a party, I use single target nukes, AoE nukes, and AoE cures as needed, and I'm constantly switching between the them. I am able to do this just fine with the toggle, and I'm not bogged down by essentially useless spells that the system you're proposing offers.

Your Logic makes no sense at all. Let's change the whole AP system just because you don't like pressing a button to use AoE (which you would have to do anyway if it were on your bar, you'd just be pressing "2" instead of "z" on a keyboard). It is unintuitive to change the toggle system, and only serves to complicate a system that makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

You guys have no idea what the new changes to classes/job system is going to be... Please hold off game breaking suggestions and ripping each others throats out till you see what it is. Maybe the jobs wont have aoe toggle... Maybe it something totally different.

I mean I get that people have nothing better to do than to speculate over the changes and things to be changed since the update is a whole another month away but seriously just wait and see first.

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I agree.

I don't think SE would take the OP's suggestion at face value, I just felt like pointing out the obvious drawbacks to the suggested system (which the OP has provided no improvements that the system would really bring to the table, aside from a faulty argument about the button used for AoE on a controller).

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

Your Logic makes no sense at all. Let's change the whole AP system just because you don't like pressing a button to use AoE (which you would have to do anyway if it were on your bar, you'd just be pressing "2" instead of "z" on a keyboard). It is unintuitive to change the toggle system, and only serves to complicate a system that makes perfect sense.

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No, let's change the AP system because it says so specifically in Yoshi-P's letter. While we're changing it, we can consider enhancements such as removing the toggle.

You argue that removing the toggle fixes nothing at all, and is utterly pointless. I'll argue that balancing a system where everything can be AOE'd is impossible. You argue that you use a lot of strategy in your gameplay toggling in and out of AOE. I'll argue that, as a healer, you never turn off AOE because there is utterly no need to. There is no penalty or anything. The only time I ever toggle it off is when I have to debuff mobs, but even then you really don't have to considering most content (leves and behests) are fighting against packs of mobs, and with the long recast times you pretty much have to aoe your debuffs.

So really, what are you trying to say? Clearly we all play differently - and that's good. But that doesn't change that this system is a failed experiment. I want them to change it because of that, not because every other MMO does it. If I wanted to play *insert generic MMO* I'd go play WoW or Rift, not FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Ava

No, let's change the AP system because it says so specifically in Yoshi-P's letter. While we're changing it, we can consider enhancements such as removing the toggle.

You argue that removing the toggle fixes nothing at all, and is utterly pointless. I'll argue that balancing a system where everything can be AOE'd is impossible. You argue that you use a lot of strategy in your gameplay toggling in and out of AOE. I'll argue that, as a healer, you never turn off AOE because there is utterly no need to. There is no penalty or anything. The only time I ever toggle it off is when I have to debuff mobs, but even then you really don't have to considering most content (leves and behests) are fighting against packs of mobs, and with the long recast times you pretty much have to aoe your debuffs.

So really, what are you trying to say? Clearly we all play differently - and that's good. But that doesn't change that this system is a failed experiment. I want them to change it because of that, not because every other MMO does it. If I wanted to play *insert generic MMO* I'd go play WoW or Rift, not FFXIV.

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Which letter would that be?

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Originally Posted by Ava

No, let's change the AP system because it says so specifically in Yoshi-P's letter. While we're changing it, we can consider enhancements such as removing the toggle.

You argue that removing the toggle fixes nothing at all, and is utterly pointless. I'll argue that balancing a system where everything can be AOE'd is impossible. You argue that you use a lot of strategy in your gameplay toggling in and out of AOE. I'll argue that, as a healer, you never turn off AOE because there is utterly no need to. There is no penalty or anything. The only time I ever toggle it off is when I have to debuff mobs, but even then you really don't have to considering most content (leves and behests) are fighting against packs of mobs, and with the long recast times you pretty much have to aoe your debuffs.

So really, what are you trying to say? Clearly we all play differently - and that's good. But that doesn't change that this system is a failed experiment. I want them to change it because of that, not because every other MMO does it. If I wanted to play *insert generic MMO* I'd go play WoW or Rift, not FFXIV.

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What you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with AoE toggle, and more to do with MP and hate management, both of which are being tweaked according to the battle blueprint and the LFTP X.

I agree, there is no need to switch from AoE on cures, but that would be solved by increasing hate/MP costs caused by AoE, NOT by getting rid of toggle. AGAIN, my point about changing AoE toggling to a -ga skill (ala FFXI) is utterly pointless, and only serves to complicate a simpler system than we had back in XI.

So please, tell me again how AoE toggling has failed. You can't, because it hasn't failed at all. It does the same thing having -ga spells would do, without taking up skill slots. Again, the ONLY problems you keep highlighting have nothing to do with toggle.

I don't see a problem with the aoe toggle, and as far as buttons, that same button is used to begin BRs and for emotes outside of combat, so it's not simply a toggle for one thing.
as for the ease of aoes I think that cost is a bit silly since its the same as non aoe. as for strategy, if your using aoes you have to be more aware of your surroundings so that you don't put your party at risk.

The biggest problem at the moment on the curing side of things is the horrid targeting system, we can't even sub-target party members with simple up and down....
As for making -ga spells I don't like this idea at all, it was terrible in 11 when manually selecting spells as it simply cluttered the list.
As for enmity I could see an increase for it on aoes even if you only attack a single target or heal a single party member.
Over all it would require players to be more strategic in it's use and possibly more conservative, though mp regeneration makes short battles a joke for mages now

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Originally Posted by Reika

Which letter would that be?

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11012

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-NEW-
Action bar and other GUI revision based on the introduction of auto-attack

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This one implies they may adjust how many bars are displayed on the screen at a time or adjust how the buttons work. (UI changes to the action bar itself)

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-NEW-
Reexamination of requirements for setting actions

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Implies they are redoing AP requirements across the board so the transition into a job system is smoother.

That doesnt mean they are redoing AP requirements. The part right next to it matters to.

-NEW-
Implement the default setting of class-specific actions when playing as that class, and define conditions for setting the actions of other classes.

=/= redoing AP system. Most likely means less Cross class abilities. And it was said in the battle blueprint that skills your your class will automatically be equipped first.

However if they reduce AP costs of mage spells, that would be good, since like i said, you can never equip all of your spells or abilities as a mage.

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Originally Posted by Reika

That doesnt mean they are redoing AP requirements. The part right next to it matters to.

-NEW-
Implement the default setting of class-specific actions when playing as that class, and define conditions for setting the actions of other classes.

=/= redoing AP system. Most likely means less Cross class abilities. And it was said in the battle blueprint that skills your your class will automatically be equipped first.

However if they reduce AP costs of mage spells, that would be good, since like i said, you can never equip all of your spells or abilities as a mage.

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I would disagree with you on that. First, the first quote in my post is much closer to what your idea of the second quote is. The first quote implies some kind of changes with the bar themselves, UI elements. Automatically equipping actions, I would argue, is a UI thing.

The second quote mentions equipping actions specifically. Yes, they may not currently intend to change the way they work entirely but there are plenty of other sections of the letter that discuss balancing spells and abilities across the board, and having to change some so that they work nicer with the new systems. It's speculation, since honestly, everything is speculation. The point is, they are re examining the systems surrounding Actions, Action Points, and the Action Bar. What they decide to do, nobody knows. But we know they're at least looking at them and intend to do something with them.

Also, why do people feel like they need to equip everything? =/ Isn't that the purpose of Action Points? So you have to decide what is absolutely most important and equip only those? So many lazy people playing this game. :(

In FFXIV: time = hardcore, but decision making = wrong idea. We're doomed if SE feels that way, too.

Speaking as a controller user, I find that there is no need to remove the AoE toggle to "free up" buttons. I have the AoE toggle set to my Square button (using a PS3 controller), and have never felt that it was a "wasted" button or that its preventing me from setting a more important function to that button.

I like the idea of AoE specialists, and even like the idea of "aga" spells, however as mentioned this would clutter the skill bars and take precious action points to achieve in any traditional sense.

Now that doesn't prevent them from being creative, for instance, you start with "Fire" that does not have the ability to AoE, and you later unlock the AoE for that spell, or equip the AoE (Materia!), or some other such device that would enable the AoE toggle for a (or all) spells.

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Originally Posted by Ava

You people bringing up action points are arguing ONE slot, really? Are you serious? One slot is going to kill it for you?

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Its not just one slot, its one slot for every single AoE skill we have. This would drastically reduce the number of skills we have per bar and is just generally a bad idea.

Other than "it uses a button I would rather use for something else" there has not been a viable argument for the removal of the AoE toggle UI.

Your arguments as they stand are about the mechanics of AoE skills, not the toggle. Wanting the AoE skill mechanics to change is something entirely different. I agree that AoE's should cost more MP and/or do less overall damage/heal, take longer to cast, etc...

None of these require the removal of the toggle UI, just the restructuring of how AoE's work and the cost to toggle. The toggle UI is a great addition to the game and makes using a controller a more enjoyable experience.

They never specifically said anything about action points tho... it is absolute speculation, and hope, since it coincides with your desires to have separate spells for Aoe.

But the aoe toggle is gonna stay. they are increasing the enmity generation and MP cost of aoe cast spells.

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Originally Posted by Crowley

AoE needs to be a static widget while in a DoM job. There are only a few situations where I am in single target mode.

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I disagree. I feel that having the ability to use every spell AOE currently without any penalty is madness. For the most part, playing a mage is mindless. I don't have to pay attention to who is taking damage, amongst other things in battle (who is the one that got poisoned, how much hate is this cure going to pull etc.).
You can choose any final fantasy title in the series, and find a better system. Whether they take on the FFXI approach; AOE cures are learned a tad later than the single target spell, cost much more mp (approx 3times) and pull a large amount of hate. This would make you think twice about using it, and save it for dire situations. (strategy)

OR take it back a few years, draw on the old classic system where toggling AOE for your abilities resulted in a significant penalty to magic potency. Cures would cure a lot less hp than the single target, nukes do much less damage etc.

Either way, I would like to see this touched on eventually.

Static widget would be fine, by me.

I'm really not theory crafting here. Let us AoE everything, don't let us AoE everything. I really don't care right now. I'm a kb/mouse user, and I'm just tired of having to hit that damned green AoE toggle with my enter key or click it with my mouse every time I cast a spell. I don't want to see it pop up in my face anymore. It's redundant and is in desperate need of a redesign.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Static widget would be fine, by me.

I'm really not theory crafting here. Let us AoE everything, don't let us AoE everything. I really don't care right now. I'm a kb/mouse user, and I'm just tired of having to hit that damned green AoE toggle with my enter key or click it with my mouse every time I cast a spell. I don't want to see it pop up in my face anymore. It's redundant and is in desperate need of a redesign.

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A static widget that requires clicking would be very painful for a controller user. Trying to navigate to the AoE toggle constantly when you wish to change to/from AoE would not be very intuitive, and making a button exclusively toggle the AoE widget (instead of being a clicked button) would reduce the amount of functions you can have on a controller because as it stands the to AoE or not AoE button is, when the AoE pop-up is not visible, used for other actions. Maybe if the toggle worked only when the skill bar is up...

The UI dev team has a rough job as it is. They have to take an (established) interface that people expect from a (almost exclusively) keyboard/mouse genre and make it work equally well with a controller, keeping the same consistent UI no matter your input device (and this is VERY important). I applaud them on their work so far, it is no easy task to please everyone.

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Originally Posted by thedevilsjester

The UI dev team has a rough job as it is. They have to take an (established) interface that people expect from a (almost exclusively) keyboard/mouse genre and make it work equally well with a controller, keeping the same consistent UI no matter your input device (and this is VERY important). I applaud them on their work so far, it is no easy task to please everyone.

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I wholeheartedly agree, which is why they need dual UIs instead of this one-size-fits-all that tries to please everyone but actually pleases no one.

But that's another topic.

My opinion stands, I hate the AoE toggle.

Totally agree with the OP. The difference between buffing and attacking single/multiple targets not only is very tactical, but it also plays a HUGE role in defining classes, ie: the difference between red mage and scholar buffing capabilities in ffxi.

I don't have enough bar spaces for single spells and -ga spells (And I WANT to be able to do BOTH)... I WANT MY AOE BUTTON!! DoW/H/L shouldn't have one, but as a DoM, I need it, k thanks.

The system is fine as is. Except that there is no additional cost for AoE. That makes mages excessively powerful. There needs to be an increased MP cost and/or casting time for Area spells. Cooldown time as mentioned earlier would be a bad idea.

I didn't realize only DoM got the toggle... but that needs to stay the same.

Back in the day, older final fantasy games.... Spells were both single target and aoe depending on how you wanted to cast them. you could even select a few targets instead of them all. FFVI was like that i think. FFIV was definantly that way. A few others were too.

So being able to chose between aoe and single target of a single spell is nothing new.

Those games, however, had potency and MP penalties for casting them AOE. It is something that is in the works to being that way right now.

I'd just rather have Fire Fira Firaga etc.

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Originally Posted by Reika

You dont want to be able to AOE?

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Good lord, could your reading comprehension have been anymore fail here?

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Originally Posted by Vahzl

Good lord, could your reading comprehension have been anymore fail here?

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That was a quite a while ago.... 32 days or so.

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Originally Posted by Reika

That was a quite a while ago.... 32 days or so.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uye67fQhayA&t=0m13s

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Originally Posted by Demacia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uye67fQhayA&t=0m13s

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Ahh but I didnt say ass hole at the end. maybe I should have >.>

Hah brilliant :D

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

This is the first game I've ever played where people are begging to be gimped.

There's nothing wrong with the Toggle. It's one of the few features that SE got right with this game. Adding -ga spells is more limiting than a toggle. The current mage classes don't focus on JUST curing, or JUST nuking, or JUST buffin/debuffing, and the toggle makes juggling all of these a lot easier, and a lot more feasible than it would be if we had two - 5 slots being taken up by unnecessary spells.

It sounds to me like people just want -ga spells to foster their XI nostalgia. Stop trying to turn this game into FFXI, kthxbai.

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Maybe thats because we actually need to be gimped in this game? The game is just so mindless and easy, not too mention extremely short by now. Getting from 1-50 takes almost no time now. So nearly everyone has at least one 50, and the most difficult nm encounter in the game can easily be taken out with 3-4 people.