[dev1022] The Battle Regimen HATE thread and a ply for auto-attack

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Originally Posted by Reika

You can input some random ass BR's and still get debuffs. The point is, 8 person BR is more damage then 8 single attacks without it.

Hell. basic attack + WS (Different) gets you defense debuff. Basic attack + basic attack (Same) gets you attack debuff. It is not complicated folks lol.

Oh, you can put basic attacks in BR!

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exactly. People are either just too ignorant or too stubborn to learn.

Oh and @ those who think BR is bad, Great Buffalo downed in 9 mins with efficient BRs, 7 people and an unoptimized party setup.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

exactly. People are either just too ignorant or too stubborn to learn.

Oh and @ those who think BR is bad, Great Buffalo downed in 9 mins with efficient BRs, 7 people and an unoptimized party setup.

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First I want to say I really love the game. I played 11 for many years also. It's hard to adjust to the game if you are a 11 fan looking for ffxi (2). I have really embraced the game and appreciate that it is different than 11. On this point I can say that I really do miss magic bursts and skillchains like in 11. I don't care for the Battle Regimen methodl. So my vote would have to be to bring back 11 style weaponskills and magic bursts.

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Originally Posted by Gracious

First I want to say I really love the game. I played 11 for many years also. It's hard to adjust to the game if you are a 11 fan looking for ffxi (2). I have really embraced the game and appreciate that it is different than 11. On this point I can say that I really do miss magic bursts and skillchains like in 11. I don't care for the Battle Regimen methodl. So my vote would have to be to bring back 11 style weaponskills and magic bursts.

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I was a big fan of 11's system too, but I personally prefer BRs because, from what I've seen, you can get more damage out of it if your party stacks correctly and efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

Good and yes, an opinion can be wrong. If the sky is blue and you say it's red...you're wrong, even though that is your opinion. If a TV's volume is at Max, it is too loud, but if you say that it is too quite, you are wrong, even though that is your opinion. If you are drunk and you say that you are not, you are wrong, even though that is your opinion. See the trend?

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Opinions are how you feel about something, not what something is or not. How YOU feel about something cannot be wrong or right. Though, someone can disagree with that opinion. So many things in this world are subjective and only we give meaning to anything. Do not tell people their opinions are wrong, because they are not. You just do not agree with them.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

Opinions are how you feel about something, not what something is or not. How YOU feel about something cannot be wrong or right. Though, someone can disagree with that opinion. So many things in this world are subjective and only we give meaning to anything. Do not tell people their opinions are wrong, because they are not. You just do not agree with them.

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I take it that you have never studied any type of social or neurology science before. Yes, opinions can be wrong. You may feel that something is true, when it is actually false. This, again, is an incorrect opinion. Let's say..."In my opinion, salads are more unhealthy than any other food because of pesticides." Am I wrong? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

BRs do lower DPS. Then make it up with extra damage. But does it lower DPS by freezing everyone in a limbo? Yes it does.
Think about it this way:
Lets say 5 players are doing a BR. The first one starts it, then four more stack up. From the first one triggering it, to the fifth one, each player is wasting stamina they could be using to attack.

On the other hand, if there was no queue menu and it was done like skillchains were done, people would still be able to whack the enemy in the meantime. Thats 4 players actively attacking.

You might be great at coordinating with your friends and unleashing BRs, but you can't deny there's a limbo. And that you could be doing something else in the meantime. Like casting a cure or triggering a provoke, or even increasing the DPS with a normal attack.

Not to mention that putting everything in an automatic menu takes away the fun/challenge entirely from the battle. You plan how it goes once. That's about it for BRs.

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Awwww.... As this thread is a direct reply to my "Battle Regimen LOVE Thread," I feel obliged to respond
I obviously wholeheartedly disagree with you (as does the community, it seems) but discussing it here seems futile, as 7 pages of this 9 page thread are full of derailment regarding the nature of opinions and DPS

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Originally Posted by Dubont

I take it that you have never studied any type of social or neurology science before. Yes, opinions can be wrong. You may feel that something is true, when it is actually false. This, again, is an incorrect opinion. Let's say..."In my opinion, salads are more unhealthy than any other food because of pesticides." Am I wrong? Yes.

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I'm quite tired of your incessant need to seem intellectual while putting others down. You're not. What you are trying to argue with these people is a different point than what they are making and you simply look like an ass because of it. Your sense of self-entitlement of "being right" on an internet forum over something so asinine is pompous and ridiculous. You're an idiot. Shut up.

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Originally Posted by Belial

I'm quite tired of your incessant need to seem intellectual while putting others down. You're not. What you are trying to argue with these people is a different point than what they are making and you simply look like an ass because of it. Your sense of self-entitlement of "being right" on an internet forum over something so asinine is pompous and ridiculous. You're an idiot. Shut up.

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What would your post be doing, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Gracious

First I want to say I really love the game. I played 11 for many years also. It's hard to adjust to the game if you are a 11 fan looking for ffxi (2). I have really embraced the game and appreciate that it is different than 11. On this point I can say that I really do miss magic bursts and skillchains like in 11. I don't care for the Battle Regimen methodl. So my vote would have to be to bring back 11 style weaponskills and magic bursts.

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See, I'm an (ex) XI player as well, been playing on and off since NA launch. At first I was in the same mindset of "Oh, awesome! A shiny FFXI!" when I heard about XIV. After reading up on it post-announcement and finally getting into CB1, I realized even more that this wasn't the case; it was an entirely new game with entirely new rules. Regardless, I adapted and caught on pretty quickly.
As much as I loved skillchains, I'm glad they chose an alternative system in XIV. Why, you ask? This is XIV, not XI-2.
Skillchains in XI's fashion don't work in this game for the very fact that TP is generated within a matter of hits on any class, and weaponskills are part of the primary attack rotation rather than being something you can only use after you make a sandwich while leaving your character in auto attack mode.
Sure, some things from XI would be a welcome addition (i.e.: party seek flag/search), but Skillchains and auto attack are highly unnecessary.

To quote from the "other" thread

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Originally Posted by Rydin

One last point...

A well timed BR wastes absolutely no time at all. Not even a fraction of a second.
Take this example:
2 exact characters... same stats, same gear, same class, level and rank....

Character X spams light slash until his stamina reaches zero... and keeps spamming so as soon as he has enough stamina to do another light slash, he does

Character Y spams light slash until he is out of stamina, but then waits the 10 seconds for his stamina to refill completely. The instant his stamina is full, he resumes spamming of light slash

Freeze frame the second Character Y has emptied his stamina for the second time. You will notice the 2 characters have done the exact same number of light slashes....

A good BR works the same way.... yes you can't attack for 3 seconds... but no stamina is wasted... once you get done, you can launch several attacks in succession and build TP again relatively fast because your stamina gauge will be higher
No actual stamina is lost.. I repeat NO ACTUAL STAMINA IS LOST as long as your BR doesn't take a long time
I was able to tank all pre-patch NM's just fine while participating in BR, as were the healers in our party

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Originally Posted by Belial

I'm quite tired of your incessant need to seem intellectual while putting others down. You're not. What you are trying to argue with these people is a different point than what they are making and you simply look like an ass because of it. Your sense of self-entitlement of "being right" on an internet forum over something so asinine is pompous and ridiculous. You're an idiot. Shut up.

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Hypocrisy seems to run rampant on these forums...

This anti-BR rebellion is the reason why some people cant kill buffalo with 8 people prior-patch >.<

zero cooperation.

I'm thinking SE only decided to implement AA because they realized 90% of the players lacked the intelligence to actually press any other key than 1, the remaining 10% are poorer now because of it. I have been using BRs on NM hunts, and they do stack up in terms of damage. Then of course there are the debuffs that certain regimens can inflict. If I'm in a party that is willing to take 6 seconds to set up a BR that does over 2k dmg AND inflicts an attack down or defense down debuff, then it makes more sense to use them over not using them.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I think what the op was trying to say is if both of you where fighting an mob with certain amount of hp and, would not die after 1 BR and u both input them in 2 secs the people with AA would do more dmg over time than the people without it cause they are attacking during the cuing session.

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This is the only person in the entire thread who seems to have read my full post.

Everyone is pretty much arguing "DUDE, DOING A BR MEANS MORE DAMAGE THAN NOT DOING IT, SO THE DPS DOESN'T GET LOWERED!". When in fact I was arguing that being frozen does lower the DPS for no reason. If you weren't frozen you'd be attacking, and then it'd be more overall damage if the BR didn't kill the mob, aye?
So if BRs worked the same way skill chains did (that is, not through an automatic queue, but through eye and timing), you wouldn't be wasting time in the limbo, and you'd be able to do other things too WHILE STILL PULLING OFF THE BR DAMAGE!

Plus someone who had say 2k TP for maim, could potentially be able to get 1k more TP while waiting on his turn and pull off a 3k TP maim.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

This is the only person in the entire thread who seems to have read my full post.

Everyone is pretty much arguing "DUDE, DOING A BR MEANS MORE DAMAGE THAN NOT DOING IT, SO THE DPS DOESN'T GET LOWERED!". When in fact I was arguing that being frozen does lower the DPS for no reason. If you weren't frozen you'd be attacking, and then it'd be more overall damage if the BR didn't kill the mob, aye?
So if BRs worked the same way skill chains did (that is, not through an automatic queue, but through eye and timing), you wouldn't be wasting time in the limbo, and you'd be able to do other things too WHILE STILL PULLING OFF THE BR DAMAGE!

Plus someone who had say 2k TP for maim, could potentially be able to get 1k more TP while waiting on his turn and pull off a 3k TP maim.

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The DPS isn't lowered because Stamina isn't lost, it just builds while in BR and you can unleash several attacks in succession when the BR is done....

/lawyered

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Originally Posted by Rydin

The DPS isn't lowered because Stamina isn't lost, it just builds while in BR and you can unleash several attacks in succession when the BR is done....

/lawyered

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1- Actions take time, they aren't instant.
2- Stamina is being actively lost from the moment your gauge reaches 100%.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

1- Actions take time, they aren't instant.
2- Stamina is being actively lost from the moment your gauge reaches 100%.

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You obviously know nothing about the BR system. If your party knows what they are doing, you are maybe using 3-5 seconds to execute a proper BR with the end result being a 3k maim. No DD will do 3k dmg in 3-5 seconds. Actions do take time, but if they are qued correctly, they will execute in a timely manner with more damage than any attack that is outside of the BR. If you disagree, you need to practice more. I'm sorry, but lrn2play.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

This is the only person in the entire thread who seems to have read my full post.

Everyone is pretty much arguing "DUDE, DOING A BR MEANS MORE DAMAGE THAN NOT DOING IT, SO THE DPS DOESN'T GET LOWERED!". When in fact I was arguing that being frozen does lower the DPS for no reason. If you weren't frozen you'd be attacking, and then it'd be more overall damage if the BR didn't kill the mob, aye?
So if BRs worked the same way skill chains did (that is, not through an automatic queue, but through eye and timing), you wouldn't be wasting time in the limbo, and you'd be able to do other things too WHILE STILL PULLING OFF THE BR DAMAGE!

Plus someone who had say 2k TP for maim, could potentially be able to get 1k more TP while waiting on his turn and pull off a 3k TP maim.

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The point is, why do you need more damage, dealt by an auto-attack wich is basically a DoT?
If you want to do other skills (like job abilities and buffs) while queing BR i explained in my previous post why it's wrong and how it woud take away most of the tactics from the BR.
And for the TP it is a common habit to use Invigorate right before joining the BR, it's a must have skill for every DD; the fact that you have a "limbo" is pushing you to build more strategies, otherwise it would just be a spam fest.

I have to say, the current battle system is more tactical than most of the people think, you just have to learn wich skill is usefull and how to use them properly.

Despite how usefull Battle Regimes are, it's a rather tedious process to do something so simple. Hell Skillchains were dirt simple compared to this confusion the BR's are.

Battle Regimes were obviously designed for the much slower paced combat back in the beta where spending 5-10 seconds setting up a regime was inconsequential. Give me back my skillchain calls T-T

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Despite how usefull Battle Regimes are, it's a rather tedious process to do something so simple. Hell Skillchains were dirt simple compared to this confusion the BR's are.

Battle Regimes were obviously designed for the much slower paced combat back in the beta where spending 5-10 seconds setting up a regime was inconsequential. Give me back my skillchain calls T-T

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how is the BR system confusing at all?! Shift + #. It's not that hard...I honestly don't see how this is confusing. If you think it is, this isn't the game for you. BRs go by fast if you use them correctly. If your party is taking more than 5 seconds to execute one, you all need to learn how to play better.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Despite how usefull Battle Regimes are, it's a rather tedious process to do something so simple. Hell Skillchains were dirt simple compared to this confusion the BR's are.

Battle Regimes were obviously designed for the much slower paced combat back in the beta where spending 5-10 seconds setting up a regime was inconsequential. Give me back my skillchain calls T-T

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I dsagree, I find SC much harder to perform then BR, the only problem with them is that SE gave really a few hints about how they work.
Just take a look at the forum, months ago everyone was complaining about BR, now there are only a few people that prefere SC system and everyone I know in game think that they're the best thing of the current battle system, both for the damage and for the fun in doing them. Once you come to fully understand them you'll love them.

Also, one thing I didn't like about SC/MB system is that it was involving a few people, while the whole party can join the BR and that's awesome.

About the pace... well like everyone said, a good BR has to be quick, that's the challenge, if it's slow you have to practice more, the fact that it can take 10 seconds doesn't mean that's the correct way to do it.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

1- Actions take time, they aren't instant.
2- Stamina is being actively lost from the moment your gauge reaches 100%.

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The gauge wont reach 100% if the BR is executed in a timely manner
And the actions never take as long as it takes to recover the stamina used... so for all intents and purposes, they ARE instant

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Despite how usefull Battle Regimes are, it's a rather tedious process to do something so simple. Hell Skillchains were dirt simple compared to this confusion the BR's are.

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No, the only real problem is that we as players were never shown how to do them through a tutorial quest or something like it

To each there own I guess, but 2-4 buttons to pull off a skillchain in XI was much easier than.

Que up action
Wait for other to que actions
Execute regime

Hell I've had instances where me and my BR partner get stuck in some sort of Limbo and have to cancle the whole regime because it wont fire off for either of us.

Hell on my end it was 1 button, 2 if I decided to have a /sh "STARTING SKILLCHAIN GAIS!" but hell maybe thats just me. It was the simplicity of pulling it off once you mastered it that was so smooth and satisfying to know you did well.

This...like many things in XIV has far too many actions between start to finish. Thats just my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

This is the only person in the entire thread who seems to have read my full post.

Everyone is pretty much arguing "DUDE, DOING A BR MEANS MORE DAMAGE THAN NOT DOING IT, SO THE DPS DOESN'T GET LOWERED!". When in fact I was arguing that being frozen does lower the DPS for no reason. If you weren't frozen you'd be attacking, and then it'd be more overall damage if the BR didn't kill the mob, aye?

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See, I addressed that in my initial post and my subsequent ones aimed at you. Queue only takes "too long" if your group is slow. If the mob doesn't die it's still a hell of a larger chunk of HP taken as opposed to whacking it normally; therefore, the "lost" DPS matters not. What you're saying is contradicting itself.

With skills set up as they are, with weapon skills being akin to normal attacks, a skillchain system a la XI would not work; hence the BR system. You need to time it so the queue limbo is as minimal as possible. The way you want it, there would be constant reactions from people spamming Light and Heavy attacks as those are used within regimes.

TP gain in this game is not the same as it was in XI: you can get to 1000 in a matter of seconds and pop a weaponskill right there. Unless you were a 70+ SAM, DRG/SAM or had a full store TP set you wouldn't be popping out WSes every few hits.
So, there needs to be a medium to decide which attacks, weapon skills and spells are to react to each other; the battle regimes. If you sit in queue you have nobody to blame but yourself and/or your group.

Also, unless your Stamina bar is sitting at full for more than a second, there is no "lost" DPS. Spamming attacks and depleting your bar, then eating it up immediately after having enough attack again is the same as letting it fill a bit more then attacking until it is empty yet again. Letting it sit at full is losing DPS, and if it sits at full during BR queue you have nobody to blame but yourself and your group for being unable to efficiently pull a BR.

On the other hand, if they decide to change how skills work in lieu with the imminent combat changes, then yes; a XI derived WS system may be viable (key words being may and be). However as it is now, battle regimes fit perfectly into the mold of the game.

Honestly, it's 1 button for me on a controller. Emote button puts your currently selected action into queue for BR. If I have to initiate it, I have to hit G. Anyone can initiate it though, as long as they're participating.

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Originally Posted by Impulse

See, I addressed that in my initial post and my subsequent ones aimed at you. Queue only takes "too long" if your group is slow. If the mob doesn't die it's still a hell of a larger chunk of HP taken as opposed to whacking it normally; therefore, the "lost" DPS matters not. What you're saying is contradicting itself.

With skills set up as they are, with weapon skills being akin to normal attacks, a skillchain system a la XI would not work; hence the BR system. You need to time it so the queue limbo is as minimal as possible. The way you want it, there would be constant reactions from people spamming Light and Heavy attacks as those are used within regimes.

TP gain in this game is not the same as it was in XI: you can get to 1000 in a matter of seconds and pop a weaponskill right there. Unless you were a 70+ SAM, DRG/SAM or had a full store TP set you wouldn't be popping out WSes every few hits.
So, there needs to be a medium to decide which attacks, weapon skills and spells are to react to each other; the battle regimes. If you sit in queue you have nobody to blame but yourself and/or your group.

Also, unless your Stamina bar is sitting at full for more than a second, there is no "lost" DPS. Spamming attacks and depleting your bar, then eating it up immediately after having enough attack again is the same as letting it fill a bit more then attacking until it is empty yet again. Letting it sit at full is losing DPS, and if it sits at full during BR queue you have nobody to blame but yourself and your group for being unable to efficiently pull a BR.

On the other hand, if they decide to change how skills work in lieu with the imminent combat changes, then yes; a XI derived WS system may be viable (key words being may and be). However as it is now, battle regimes fit perfectly into the mold of the game.

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/church

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Honestly, it's 1 button for me on a controller. Emote button puts your currently selected action into queue for BR. If I have to initiate it, I have to hit G. Anyone can initiate it though, as long as they're participating.

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You don't use the menu button on the controller?

Well here is my 2 cents on BR's. I was playing earlier today killing the dodo nm for a shield for a friend the whole fight just included: Step 1 everyone stack normal attack. step 2 : everyone stack buff's and a ws before ruin goes away. It got pretty boring after while just spamming everything in br mode tbh i hope they come up with something better to make chars link attacks together it was rather boring after a while.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Well here is my 2 cents on BR's. I was playing earlier today killing the dodo nm for a shield for a friend the whole fight just included: Step 1 everyone stack normal attack. step 2 : everyone stack buff's and a ws before ruin goes away. It got pretty boring after while just spamming everything in br mode tbh i hope they come up with something better to make chars link attacks together it was rather boring after a while.

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They could definitely expand it with better animations and more combinations of attacks though
But I can see that on the horizon

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Originally Posted by Dubont

I take it that you have never studied any type of social or neurology science before. Yes, opinions can be wrong. You may feel that something is true, when it is actually false. This, again, is an incorrect opinion. Let's say..."In my opinion, salads are more unhealthy than any other food because of pesticides." Am I wrong? Yes.

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I think you just have your own opinion on what the definition of opinion is.

1. A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
2. The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.

It doesn't matter if it's based on fact or not, it's still how they feel and so it can't be wrong. People in general have the wonderful gift of giving meaning to whatever they decide to give meaning to. All i can say in your defense is you find the definition of opinion to be in the opinion of many and in being so, not necessarily fact. And thus, you can believe that opinions can be wrong because it is IN your opinion, that they can.

Which leads one to question, what is fact? Fact is just what several people believe to be true. Which...wouldn't that mean it's just that they think/feel/believe it to be so? Does that mean that all fact is just opinions generally accepted just because so many people agree? Well then, how could anyone ever be wrong? Or better, how could anyone ever be right?

You can't have it both ways. It can't be a black and white world, and a gray world too. It's all gray and just varying shades of it. If you want to be, in my opinion, a lowly person to say anyone's way of feeling or thinking is just plain wrong, then so be it. I hope you enjoy it.

Good story. =)

(Before you even get on my case about what fact is, all that anyone truly knows is we live and we die. Everything else in between is a man-made invention. It is only truth to those who believe it so.)